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The History and Legacy of Dorn's Betrayal


Aurelius Rex

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  • 3 weeks later...

The sacrifices to the machine god have been made and the home pc seems to be relatively stable. Although that's what I thought before. :D OK, that was a seriously annoying roadblock to things, but I'm back now, and the Night Lord article is once more moving along nicely for the end of August posting date.

 

Thanks for your patience, guys! :)

Been pondering an idea for a while, and wanted to throw it out there and see what people thought. In the regular canon universe, you have a number of Ultramarine successor chapters (the genesis chapter for instance) that are really closely allied with their founder even though they may located some distance away. However, after rereading the ultramarine entry, it got me thinking that events in the Dornian universe could have led down a different path.

 

The Dornian Ultramarines were founded on the desire to carve "empires" out of the frontier, and this sort of ambitious expansionism might make rivals out of allies. The ultramarine entry seems to imply a certian degree of disagreement and competition between the Ultramarine chapters, so I was thinking that could mean that there were plots and schemes going on within Ultramar Segmentum. I find it hard to believe that the realm of the ultramarines doesn't have some kind of darkside.

I find it hard to believe that the realm of the ultramarines doesn't have some kind of darkside.

Well, it sounds logical, and of course the system needs to be balanced, so Ultramar should have it's own weaknesses too. The external risks, like the Alpha Legion, or the tyranids can't be the only things keeping the Ultras away from the Imperium's throat. After all the whole WH40K universe is based upon the conflict between a carefully proportioned veneer of order, and the ugly truth of babel underneath. The DH, and Ultramar can't be an exception.

Maybe conflict bewtween the newest chapters, which want to stick to the Codex, and the older order, who seek to expand and deviate from its teachings. I mean, it would make sense in this alternate universe if the new want the stability of the old codex, while the older order want to change it to fit new threats.
I find it hard to believe that the realm of the ultramarines doesn't have some kind of darkside.

Well, it sounds logical, and of course the system needs to be balanced, so Ultramar should have it's own weaknesses too. The external risks, like the Alpha Legion, or the tyranids can't be the only things keeping the Ultras away from the Imperium's throat. After all the whole WH40K universe is based upon the conflict between a carefully proportioned veneer of order, and the ugly truth of babel underneath. The DH, and Ultramar can't be an exception.

 

The weakness of the Dornian marines is their stagnation, IMO. Although they maintain technological progression, due to being less "superstitious" than the DH Imperium, they do so in measure increments, slow and steady. The flavor piece in the DH Ultra article with Calgar has testing his new Super Heavy Gauss cannons and railing against the other Chapter masters refusal to adopt the technology quickly enough.

The Ultarmarines of the DH also have a system of government that has several centers of power, rather than one overarching authority. While there seems to be little indication of full on fratricidal war in most cases, since they have wayyy too many enemies to occupy their time, the various factions and power blocs are jockeying for position, as evidenced by Sicarius (so long, good bye!) and Calgar's flavor pieces and the note of new Chapter masters going forth and carving out their own realms.

 

That is what I got out of the fine articles of the Dornian Hersey, at any rate.

I find it hard to believe that the realm of the ultramarines doesn't have some kind of darkside.

Well, it sounds logical, and of course the system needs to be balanced, so Ultramar should have it's own weaknesses too. The external risks, like the Alpha Legion, or the tyranids can't be the only things keeping the Ultras away from the Imperium's throat. After all the whole WH40K universe is based upon the conflict between a carefully proportioned veneer of order, and the ugly truth of babel underneath. The DH, and Ultramar can't be an exception.

 

The weakness of the Dornian marines is their stagnation, IMO. Although they maintain technological progression, due to being less "superstitious" than the DH Imperium, they do so in measure increments, slow and steady. The flavor piece in the DH Ultra article with Calgar has testing his new Super Heavy Gauss cannons and railing against the other Chapter masters refusal to adopt the technology quickly enough.

The Ultarmarines of the DH also have a system of government that has several centers of power, rather than one overarching authority. While there seems to be little indication of full on fratricidal war in most cases, since they have wayyy too many enemies to occupy their time, the various factions and power blocs are jockeying for position, as evidenced by Sicarius (so long, good bye!) and Calgar's flavor pieces and the note of new Chapter masters going forth and carving out their own realms.

 

That is what I got out of the fine articles of the Dornian Hersey, at any rate.

Do you have mind reading skills?

The weakness of the Dornian marines is their stagnation, IMO. Although they maintain technological progression, due to being less "superstitious" than the DH Imperium, they do so in measure increments, slow and steady. The flavor piece in the DH Ultra article with Calgar has testing his new Super Heavy Gauss cannons and railing against the other Chapter masters refusal to adopt the technology quickly enough.

The Ultarmarines of the DH also have a system of government that has several centers of power, rather than one overarching authority. While there seems to be little indication of full on fratricidal war in most cases, since they have wayyy too many enemies to occupy their time, the various factions and power blocs are jockeying for position, as evidenced by Sicarius (so long, good bye!) and Calgar's flavor pieces and the note of new Chapter masters going forth and carving out their own realms.

 

That is what I got out of the fine articles of the Dornian Hersey, at any rate.

 

Thats a good point. I've had a scene in my head for a while now with Calgar talking to the most powerful Ultramarine chapter masters, and using it as sort of an excuse to explore how they interact with each other and don't get along. I was thinking maybe explore alternate forms of Genesis, the mortifactors, etc. but I was struggling over a good reason for the meeting to occur. Making about technology might work. :HQ:

just wanted to add my own ideas about the chapters of the badab war(s?)

 

 

Loyalists:

astral claws - world eaters

 

mantis warriors - thousand sons

- dust prophet anyone? plus the fact that it can't be that far-fetched for a great company commander getting sick of having only scarabs for decoration

 

executioners - black templars

 

lamenters - night lords or maybe death guard or maybe word bearers or maybe thousand sons

 

 

reinforcements:

exorcists - thousand sons

- to good a name to give to anyone but the sons of magnus

 

star phantoms - night lords/death guard

- they are supposedly good at close-range warfare with meltas and plasma weapons, and like deploying by drop pod

 

fire hawks - ?

they apparently just like to burn stuff up, and enjoy hand-to-hand combat

 

minotaurs - black legion or maybe iron warriors

- they are described as being paranoid and good at siege warfare

 

raptors - ultramar or maybe raven guard or maybe emperor's children

- used to be an ultramarines successor, then became a raptors successor. there's an old piece of fluff where their battle-barge got damaged and they were forced to evacuate to a jungle planet, where they developed their jungle-fighting skills until they got rescued by the ultrasmurfs.

 

ultramar/traitors:

sons of medusa - iron hands

 

red scorpions - ultramar

maybe this universes red scorpions can barely hold together the ultramar forces?

 

novamarines - ultramar

 

carcharodons - space wolves or maybe blood angels

favour bloody hand-to-hand combat, antique wargear and raid/loot their enemies for new supplies

 

salamanders

 

marines errant - ultramar?

 

howling griffons - ultramar or maybe white scars

maybe have chaplain titus be a beloved slaaneshi leader fall in combat against the executioners, and THEN get inserted into a dreadnought, making him a homicidal, murderous machine of war?

 

betrayal at grief:

black armoured space marines(alpha legion?) tries to save the loyalist masters from the parley trap set by the ultramar chapters. with the world eaters allowing the meeting by honour alone.

just wanted to add my own ideas about the chapters of the badab war(s?)

 

 

Loyalists:

astral claws - world eaters

 

mantis warriors - thousand sons

- dust prophet anyone? plus the fact that it can't be that far-fetched for a great company commander getting sick of having only scarabs for decoration

 

executioners - black templars

 

lamenters - night lords or maybe death guard or maybe word bearers or maybe thousand sons

 

 

reinforcements:

exorcists - thousand sons

- to good a name to give to anyone but the sons of magnus

 

star phantoms - night lords/death guard

- they are supposedly good at close-range warfare with meltas and plasma weapons, and like deploying by drop pod

 

fire hawks - ?

they apparently just like to burn stuff up, and enjoy hand-to-hand combat

 

minotaurs - black legion or maybe iron warriors

- they are described as being paranoid and good at siege warfare

 

raptors - ultramar or maybe raven guard or maybe emperor's children

- used to be an ultramarines successor, then became a raptors successor. there's an old piece of fluff where their battle-barge got damaged and they were forced to evacuate to a jungle planet, where they developed their jungle-fighting skills until they got rescued by the ultrasmurfs.

 

ultramar/traitors:

sons of medusa - iron hands

 

red scorpions - ultramar

maybe this universes red scorpions can barely hold together the ultramar forces?

 

novamarines - ultramar

 

carcharodons - space wolves or maybe blood angels

favour bloody hand-to-hand combat, antique wargear and raid/loot their enemies for new supplies

 

salamanders

 

marines errant - ultramar?

 

howling griffons - ultramar or maybe white scars

maybe have chaplain titus be a beloved slaaneshi leader fall in combat against the executioners, and THEN get inserted into a dreadnought, making him a homicidal, murderous machine of war?

 

betrayal at grief:

black armoured space marines(alpha legion?) tries to save the loyalist masters from the parley trap set by the ultramar chapters. with the world eaters allowing the meeting by honour alone.

 

i dont know if you've read the previous post's but most of the roles of those chapters have been explained already.

Yeah all the chapters have been put in place. On the Badab War, I've decided not to continue writing till everything's done so we have the whole backstory/information.

could you maybe give us an update on whos on what side so its easier for the rest of us to help?

This woudl make the forces as follows:

Imperial:

Astral Claws (World Eaters), Mantis Warriors (Legion?), Exorcists (Word bearers/Thousand Sons or Alpha Legion), Minotaurs (?), Tiger Claws (prehaps merged with the Astral Claws when their numbers were low?), Executioners (?)

Ultramar ( around 2850 marines)

Marines Errant (600 marines), Howling Griffons (250 marines), Novamarines (200 marines + scout and veterans), and Red Scorpions (800 marines)

Malal

Salamanders

Chaos

Fire Angels, Fire Hawks, Raptors and the Lamenters

Iron Hands

Sons of Medusa (named for their adherence to the culture of Medusa)

Pretty much what all father said with one change (in bold).

 

I also had another idea. As the World Eaters and the Salamanders hate each other, the Astral Claws are going to attack want to kill them. So Lufgt and the Salis leader are going to go head to head and I'm unsure whether the leader should be Vulkan He'stan or Chaplain Xavier. Either Lufgt will take their head. I reckon if it's Vulkan it would be an epic clash but Xaviers dead in the normverse so... yeah. Which one should I use?

This woudl make the forces as follows:

Imperial:

Astral Claws (World Eaters), Mantis Warriors (Legion?), Exorcists (Word bearers/Thousand Sons or Alpha Legion), Minotaurs (?), Tiger Claws (prehaps merged with the Astral Claws when their numbers were low?), Executioners (?)

Ultramar ( around 2850 marines)

Marines Errant (600 marines), Howling Griffons (250 marines), Novamarines (200 marines + scout and veterans), and Red Scorpions (800 marines)

Malal

Salamanders

Chaos

Fire Angels, Fire Hawks, Raptors and the Lamenters

Iron Hands

Sons of Medusa (named for their adherence to the culture of Medusa)

Pretty much what all father said with one change (in bold).

 

I also had another idea. As the World Eaters and the Salamanders hate each other, the Astral Claws are going to attack want to kill them. So Lufgt and the Salis leader are going to go head to head and I'm unsure whether the leader should be Vulkan He'stan or Chaplain Xavier. Either Lufgt will take their head. I reckon if it's Vulkan it would be an epic clash but Xaviers dead in the normverse so... yeah. Which one should I use?

 

 

Some of what you quoted doesn't look right.

 

I was voting that the Mantis warriors would likely be a slanesh/white scar force since the concept of "hyper focus" can tie in with Slanesh emphasis on sensation and quick reaction times.

 

Fire angels were being pushed towards being word bearers with the angelic identity.

 

I wrote something that suggested the sons of medusa were a cult of normal humans with marine support that acted like an intelligence network for the Iron hands

 

Minotaurs were discussed as being world eaters with Alpha Legion forces working alongside them

 

Executioners are clearly decsendants of imperial fists (see http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Executioners )

 

One of the earliest ideas i posted had the lamenters being almost destroyed fighting the tyranids, and then returning as chaos after being tricked into adopting blood angel gene seed to replenish their numbers.

 

Fire hawks were being turned into legion of the damn and showing up on the side of chaos

 

Not sure about who the astral claws should fight. Personally, my vote is still for them to be a black templar legion, since it would make sense for them to be leading a combined crusade to retake the badab system from the hands of chaos and the ultras

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