The History and Legacy of Dorn's Betrayal

[Coryphaus 101]

Very nice Culebras. I just thought I'd sneak in here and add in a bit about the Badab War. The Night Lords are very, very cool and the fact that they hate planets rebelling just gives me an excuse to include them. The ideas on the rivalry between WE and NL sound cool and relatively sound and depending on Aurelius' view on them may be included as well.

[Kelbor-Hal]

First of all, well done boss, great job :)

I only want to ask the usual: waht's the NL's opinion about the Emperor's godhood? I think it's relevant to mention it, because in the NL novels Talos and the others have a wery strong opinion about it...

[G3rman]

I just saw the Ultramraines Mk. 16 armor, and man, it actually makes me want to play the Smurfs and have some of those badboys! Great job!

[Saa]

First of all, well done boss, great job :D

I only want to ask the usual: waht's the NL's opinion about the Emperor's godhood? I think it's relevant to mention it, because in the NL novels Talos and the others have a wery strong opinion about it...

 

Seconded. Another outstanding read, well done and thank you!!

 

I too am curious regarding the NL position towards the Emps godhood.

 

Saa

 

.......or something like that

[Aurelius Rex]

Sorry about the delay - been pondering the Salamanders and coming up with evil plans for them. :)

 

Regarding the Night Lords and their view of the Emperor's divinity, I would say that they would leave that to the Word Bearers. They would revere Him as the greatest man who ever lived, as the father of their primarch, and for His vision to spread the law of the Imperium across a scattered, disorganised galaxy of human settlers. They have taken the mantle as the keepers of the Pax Imperialis very seriously. There was no mention of Chaplains in the IA article and they wouldn't be an important part of the legion's character, but there's no reason why they might not be included in their ranks if this was what was meant by the query.

[Culebras]

Sorry about the delay - been pondering the Salamanders and coming up with evil plans for them. :cuss

 

Regarding the Night Lords and their view of the Emperor's divinity, I would say that they would leave that to the Word Bearers. They would revere Him as the greatest man who ever lived, as the father of their primarch, and for His vision to spread the law of the Imperium across a scattered, disorganised galaxy of human settlers. They have taken the mantle as the keepers of the Pax Imperialis very seriously. There was no mention of Chaplains in the IA article and they wouldn't be an important part of the legion's character, but there's no reason why they might not be included in their ranks if this was what was meant by the query.

 

Ooh Salamanders. That should be an interesting entry.

 

Thanks for the heads up on the Chaplains. Its a bit of an interesting conundrum when we start trying to figure out things like Librarians and Chaplains, especially in a universe where the Thousand Sons and the Word Bearers are such a powerful force. How does each legion react to the Word Bearer's clams on divinity? Sounds like views on the emperor differ from legion to legion and thats not a bad thing, in my opinion.

 

One thing I was wondering on, in a similair vein, is how librarians are viewed across the legions. There is evidences of the Alpha legion using them, but what about the Emperor's children or the world eaters? I would assme they might play a small part in the background, but thats just an assumption.

[Coryphaus 101]

Would different legion's have many Librarians/Chaplains? They would probably have a few but would the Word Bearers/Thousand Sons 'lend' them Chaplains/Librarians, even just for training?

[Kelbor-Hal]

They would probably have a few but would the Word Bearers/Thousand Sons 'lend' them Chaplains/Librarians, even just for training?

In the original WH40K that was a standard method (as mentioned in Prospero Burns, or The First Heretic), but I guess it's a no go in the DH, because of the Legion's too different views.

[Culebras]

On a different note from my last post, I wanted to mention the Iron Hands and the recent changes to the necron fluff. I'm not sure if this would work better here or in the IA post.

 

I went ahead and purchased the New Necron codex and took a long hard look at the fluff. Needless to say, a lot of things were changed, retconned, or just overall removed, and after going back over the IA entry for the Iron hands, I tried to take note of what the problem areas where.

[Culebras]

1. C'tan shards. Aurelius really hit this one on the head months before the new codex came out, and since this is one of the fundamental elements of the story, that is a good thing. Under the new story line, the c'tan numbered more than four (exact number is deliberately left unknown) and gave the Necrontyr access to the biotransferrance technology that allowed them to preserve their minds in metal bodies at the price of their souls. They fought alongside the Necrons against the old ones and then were betrayed by the Ruler of the Necrons, the silent king, who commanded absolute power over the entire race thanks to imbedded command protocols. The remaining c'tan shards were imprisoned by the Necrons in hyperstone mazes like a genie in a bottle. Fortunately, not all of them were locked up and some got away, which helps to explain what happened on mars.

This isn't so much a problem, but an important change in Point of View. Previously, we assumed that the C'tan inhabiting Manus was one of the Necron head leaders, but under the new fluff, its more in line with a fugitive who uses the Iron hands to sieze power.

 

2. Changes to technology: The necrons have lost the ability to cut through energy shields in the current addition of the codex. They also no longer have the ability to cross the galaxy using teleportation. Instead, they employ something called a "dolmen gate" to access parts of the webway the necrons have taken over and use that to move their ships across the galaxy instead of using the warp (which they can't because they have no souls).

This is a problem because one of the key events that changed the Iron hands was when Manus (the real one) sabotaged the teleport back to Medusa. If they don't have this ability anymore, than that could be a problem.

 

3. No pariah's: they really did away with any connection between the necrons and the pariah genes. Instead, the new lore is that the Necrons use "Null field matrices" to keep Demons and the war from manifesting. (it also disrupts the tyranids as well.)

Not sure how much of a change this will affect (if any) but it was noteworthy that I felt it should be included.

 

4. the silent king and the Praetorians: In the previous lore, the necrons were mostly mindless and the C'tan had all the character, but the new edition makes it quite clear that the necrons not only have character and traits, they also have plans, ideas, etc. The bigger hurdle though, is the fact that the silent King and the Praetorian order never went into hibernation and have been active for the 60 million years since the War in Heaven.

Obviously, this creates a problem since one of the Assumptions of the Iron Hands Codex is that the Necrons are all dormant. Further, if we assume that Manus was possessed by a rogue C'Tan shard, I doubt the Praetorians would be happy to hear that.

 

So with all this bad news and poking holes in what was (and still is) a very good story, I thought we could try and brainstorm small changes to fix it. Here was my idea

 

Ferrus encountered an unbound C'tan Shard on Medusa, which he killed, but the shard was able to infect him with a portion of its essence. The shard lay dormant in his body for many years, until he reached Terminus. Maybe a quick fight with some "Automated" defense robots there (praetorians), and Manus finds the mirror in the fluff piece, which is actually another Shard of the same c'tan. When he touches it, the shards merge, regaining a portion of its original essence and taking over Manus's body with the aim of collecting more "pieces" of itself and taking revenge on the Necrons.

 

In the fluff of the newest edition, Matt Ward makes a big point of stating that the Silent King broke the Command protocols so that the various necron dynasties were no longer bound to his will. What if, in the dornian universe, this didn't happen. If the Command protocols were still in place, then Dragon-manus might have gotten the idea of subverting the Silent Kings control and putting itself as sole ruler of the Necrons. But in order to do that, he needed to gain reunite more shards of himself, and so went after the shard(s) on Mars because a big one was located there. Maybe, as part of the deal, Dragon-manus showed Dorn the plans for the Null field matrices and the hyperstone matrices and proposed that they, along with the knowledge gained by the Dark Angels, could use this as a trump card against the forces of chaos, possibly even to cage the chaos gods themselves after the Emperor was overthrown... Then again, we know dragon-manus has a penchant for deception.

 

Unfortunately, things didn't go as planned and instead of taking over the necrons, he fried them all instead. So, that leaves him and the Iron hands back at square one, so he has been using them to rebuild the control so he can trigger the reanimation protocols and bring all the necrons accross the galaxy back on-line under his command.

 

Its not a perfect idea, and it still leaves some big questions. For instance, if the c'tan gave the necrontyr the ability to assume mechanical bodies, why couldn't Dragon-manus do the same to the Iron hands? What was the silent King doing while this whole thing was going on? I don't really have an answer.

 

 

On the plus side, the Necrons did gain a lot of cool and interesting technology and they still have lots of crazy weapons. Including swords that pass out of phase with reality and relic blade like staffs that can carve the barrel of a leman russ. They also gained alot of Short range firepower in the form of electricity based "Tesla" weapons and the anti-matter partical weapons, not to mention some seriously fun sci-fi weapons, including the titan-Killing doomsday cannon, the aerial death ray, and the fiery doom of the heat beam. Also, mind-controlling scarabs :o. Just some fun ideas include

 

-Assault marines with Particle pistols and Hyperphase swords.

-Terminators with Dispersion shields

-Jetbike equipped Iron hands with Heavy gauss cannons

-Dreadnoughts with Heat ray and/or death rays

-Land speeders with heavy gauss cannons

-Vindicators with Doomsday cannons.

-Predators with Tesla Cannons or destructors.

[G3rman]

I have a question Aurelius if you would entertain me, as I'm not sure if you've answered it or not but its bothered me.

 

About the Ultramarines, how large is their realm? Has it dissected the Imperium in half? Or is their piece of territory in the stars barely a pocket in comparison to the IoM?

 

Also, is their marine armor (Mk. 16) well above the Imperium's quality which I'm guessing is still Mk. 7 in this alternate? And lastly, even though they must not have as many marines as the IoM, roughly how many Marines or chapters does Segmentum Ultramar have protecting it?

 

Sorry, I've never liked the Ultra posterboys in regular 40k but your rendition of them has me intrigued. I've always had a secret desire to have a chapter or larger group of marines control an entire sector of space themselves, renegade from the IoM but not chaos in any way.

[modernangelofdeath]

1. C'tan shards. Aurelius really hit this one on the head months before the new codex came out, and since this is one of the fundamental elements of the story, that is a good thing. Under the new story line, the c'tan numbered more than four (exact number is deliberately left unknown) and gave the Necrontyr access to the biotransferrance technology that allowed them to preserve their minds in metal bodies at the price of their souls. They fought alongside the Necrons against the old ones and then were betrayed by the Ruler of the Necrons, the silent king, who commanded absolute power over the entire race thanks to imbedded command protocols. The remaining c'tan shards were imprisoned by the Necrons in hyperstone mazes like a genie in a bottle. Fortunately, not all of them were locked up and some got away, which helps to explain what happened on mars.

This isn't so much a problem, but an important change in Point of View. Previously, we assumed that the C'tan inhabiting Manus was one of the Necron head leaders, but under the new fluff, its more in line with a fugitive who uses the Iron hands to sieze power.

 

2. Changes to technology: The necrons have lost the ability to cut through energy shields in the current addition of the codex. They also no longer have the ability to cross the galaxy using teleportation. Instead, they employ something called a "dolmen gate" to access parts of the webway the necrons have taken over and use that to move their ships across the galaxy instead of using the warp (which they can't because they have no souls).

This is a problem because one of the key events that changed the Iron hands was when Manus (the real one) sabotaged the teleport back to Medusa. If they don't have this ability anymore, than that could be a problem.

 

3. No pariah's: they really did away with any connection between the necrons and the pariah genes. Instead, the new lore is that the Necrons use "Null field matrices" to keep Demons and the war from manifesting. (it also disrupts the tyranids as well.)

Not sure how much of a change this will affect (if any) but it was noteworthy that I felt it should be included.

 

4. the silent king and the Praetorians: In the previous lore, the necrons were mostly mindless and the C'tan had all the character, but the new edition makes it quite clear that the necrons not only have character and traits, they also have plans, ideas, etc. The bigger hurdle though, is the fact that the silent King and the Praetorian order never went into hibernation and have been active for the 60 million years since the War in Heaven.

Obviously, this creates a problem since one of the Assumptions of the Iron Hands Codex is that the Necrons are all dormant. Further, if we assume that Manus was possessed by a rogue C'Tan shard, I doubt the Praetorians would be happy to hear that.

 

So with all this bad news and poking holes in what was (and still is) a very good story, I thought we could try and brainstorm small changes to fix it. Here was my idea

 

Ferrus encountered an unbound C'tan Shard on Medusa, which he killed, but the shard was able to infect him with a portion of its essence. The shard lay dormant in his body for many years, until he reached Terminus. Maybe a quick fight with some "Automated" defense robots there (praetorians), and Manus finds the mirror in the fluff piece, which is actually another Shard of the same c'tan. When he touches it, the shards merge, regaining a portion of its original essence and taking over Manus's body with the aim of collecting more "pieces" of itself and taking revenge on the Necrons.

 

In the fluff of the newest edition, Matt Ward makes a big point of stating that the Silent King broke the Command protocols so that the various necron dynasties were no longer bound to his will. What if, in the dornian universe, this didn't happen. If the Command protocols were still in place, then Dragon-manus might have gotten the idea of subverting the Silent Kings control and putting itself as sole ruler of the Necrons. But in order to do that, he needed to gain reunite more shards of himself, and so went after the shard(s) on Mars because a big one was located there. Maybe, as part of the deal, Dragon-manus showed Dorn the plans for the Null field matrices and the hyperstone matrices and proposed that they, along with the knowledge gained by the Dark Angels, could use this as a trump card against the forces of chaos, possibly even to cage the chaos gods themselves after the Emperor was overthrown... Then again, we know dragon-manus has a penchant for deception.

 

Unfortunately, things didn't go as planned and instead of taking over the necrons, he fried them all instead. So, that leaves him and the Iron hands back at square one, so he has been using them to rebuild the control so he can trigger the reanimation protocols and bring all the necrons accross the galaxy back on-line under his command.

 

Its not a perfect idea, and it still leaves some big questions. For instance, if the c'tan gave the necrontyr the ability to assume mechanical bodies, why couldn't Dragon-manus do the same to the Iron hands? What was the silent King doing while this whole thing was going on? I don't really have an answer.

 

 

On the plus side, the Necrons did gain a lot of cool and interesting technology and they still have lots of crazy weapons. Including swords that pass out of phase with reality and relic blade like staffs that can carve the barrel of a leman russ. They also gained alot of Short range firepower in the form of electricity based "Tesla" weapons and the anti-matter partical weapons, not to mention some seriously fun sci-fi weapons, including the titan-Killing doomsday cannon, the aerial death ray, and the fiery doom of the heat beam. Also, mind-controlling scarabs :o. Just some fun ideas include

 

-Assault marines with Particle pistols and Hyperphase swords.

-Terminators with Dispersion shields

-Jetbike equipped Iron hands with Heavy gauss cannons

-Dreadnoughts with Heat ray and/or death rays

-Land speeders with heavy gauss cannons

-Vindicators with Doomsday cannons.

-Predators with Tesla Cannons or destructors.

sounds like a good idea and all but with the DH version alot of things that should of happened didnt, this universe wasnt caused by a single action, in this version maybe the necrons were betrayed by the C'tan after they were no longer of use. also, the Iron Hands marines themselves still had souls around the time of the telaport sabotage, making that scenario still quite possible.

[Coryphaus 101]

Nothing against you or the ideas you've thought up but this is an alternate universe so things don't go exactly as they did in the 'normal' universe. So the technology will probably change but the storyline won't change dramatically.

 

That's about all.

[Culebras]

sounds like a good idea and all but with the DH version alot of things that should of happened didnt, this universe wasnt caused by a single action, in this version maybe the necrons were betrayed by the C'tan after they were no longer of use. also, the Iron Hands marines themselves still had souls around the time of the telaport sabotage, making that scenario still quite possible.

 

 

Yes, many of the DH versins are different, but all that difference often comes down to a simple, unexpected decision. For instance

 

The emperor's decision to reinforce Angron instead of abducting him

Sanguinas being raised by mutants instead of humans

Fulgrim not falling to temptation against the Laer

Lorgar not being reprimanded by the emperor for his faith

Magnus at Nikea

[modernangelofdeath]

sounds like a good idea and all but with the DH version alot of things that should of happened didnt, this universe wasnt caused by a single action, in this version maybe the necrons were betrayed by the C'tan after they were no longer of use. also, the Iron Hands marines themselves still had souls around the time of the telaport sabotage, making that scenario still quite possible.

 

 

Yes, many of the DH versins are different, but all that difference often comes down to a simple, unexpected decision. For instance

 

The emperor's decision to reinforce Angron instead of abducting him

Sanguinas being raised by mutants instead of humans

Fulgrim not falling to temptation against the Laer

Lorgar not being reprimanded by the emperor for his faith

Magnus at Nikea

Dont forget the death of Kor Phaeron.

[Culebras]

true

[Coryphaus 101]

sounds like a good idea and all but with the DH version alot of things that should of happened didnt, this universe wasnt caused by a single action, in this version maybe the necrons were betrayed by the C'tan after they were no longer of use. also, the Iron Hands marines themselves still had souls around the time of the telaport sabotage, making that scenario still quite possible.

 

 

Yes, many of the DH versins are different, but all that difference often comes down to a simple, unexpected decision. For instance

 

The emperor's decision to reinforce Angron instead of abducting him

Sanguinas being raised by mutants instead of humans

Fulgrim not falling to temptation against the Laer

Lorgar not being reprimanded by the emperor for his faith

Magnus at Nikea

Culebras, you're ideas are very cool but this is still an alternate universe. I'm sure your dedication to the Dornian Heresy is appreciated but it is still an alternate universe. Like you said, the changes in the DH often come down to unexpected decisions. Maybe the Silent King decided not to fight the C'tan because they were too powerful? Of course, I can't say 'your ideas aren't going to be fitted in' because this isn't my project and maybe Aurelius thinks that with the new necron codex the Iron Hands should change.

 

That's about all.

[Culebras]

sounds like a good idea and all but with the DH version alot of things that should of happened didnt, this universe wasnt caused by a single action, in this version maybe the necrons were betrayed by the C'tan after they were no longer of use. also, the Iron Hands marines themselves still had souls around the time of the telaport sabotage, making that scenario still quite possible.

 

 

Yes, many of the DH versins are different, but all that difference often comes down to a simple, unexpected decision. For instance

 

The emperor's decision to reinforce Angron instead of abducting him

Sanguinas being raised by mutants instead of humans

Fulgrim not falling to temptation against the Laer

Lorgar not being reprimanded by the emperor for his faith

Magnus at Nikea

Culebras, you're ideas are very cool but this is still an alternate universe. I'm sure your dedication to the Dornian Heresy is appreciated but it is still an alternate universe. Like you said, the changes in the DH often come down to unexpected decisions. Maybe the Silent King decided not to fight the C'tan because they were too powerful? Of course, I can't say 'your ideas aren't going to be fitted in' because this isn't my project and maybe Aurelius thinks that with the new necron codex the Iron Hands should change.

 

That's about all.

 

Coryphaus

 

Frankly, I would be surprised if any of my suggestions resulted in a change. You are right that this is an alternate universe, and ultimately what did and did not happen is up to the author, not the community. I suppose I would be doing the same thing if a new horus heresy novel came out that focused on the Iron Hands and revealed some surprising new twist. The changes to the necrons were, at least for me, so widespread and absolute that it can be hard to reconcile the version we have known with this new one that will be featured in books, videogames, etc. I was just brainstorming on ways to hypothetically bridge the gap, not trying to put words in Aurelius mouth.

 

Ultimately, when we get major retcons like this, we can either view it as an obstacle to ignore or an asset to embrace. I prefer the latter.

[Coryphaus 101]

You know, that little speech there made me sound like a politician. I think new technology would be cool, if nothing else.

[Aurelius Rex]

Have just picked up the new Necron Codex from my local GW - haven't read it yet, and hope things aren't too different that I can't explain it as being due to alternate events. ;)

 

EDIT: @G3rman - Ultramar Segmentum takes up a sizable, and ever-increasing chunk of what was known as Ultima segmentum... definitely something to worry about if you are the Imperium! At a ballpark figure, say a bit less than 20% of the galaxy. Ultima is one of the biggest segmenta, but they haven't got all of it - yet! Let's just say the Iron Warriors and Alpha Legion are fighting an uphill battle, and the arrival of the first tendrils of the Hive Mind hitting the eastern fringe were a handy respite.

[G3rman]

Aurelius, I have another question.

 

What color is the armor the IW wear in DH? Is it black/gold or Silver and hazard stripes?

[Aurelius Rex]

Aurelius, I have another question.

 

What color is the armor the IW wear in DH? Is it black/gold or Silver and hazard stripes?

Regarding the Iron Warriors and their armour colours - I would say that there would be plenty of leeway for you to do whatever works for you. :P There would probably be differences between the different grand companies, with one having darker armour, one having shinier armour, some wanting the black and yellow hazard stripes and others not using it. The best general pointer for them (as I haven't got a painter version of them worked up yet) is the front cover of the Dornian Heresy PDF by Aerion the Faithful which showed Iron Warriors facing off against Sanguinius at the Siege of Terra. It also shows a good shot of their alternate timeline chapter symbol, which I really like!

 

I suppose that this degree of variation would apply to all of the legions - loyalist or traitor. Each of the companies / warbands would show a degree of differentiation, which could be put down to traditions that have built up over the millennia of their existence, to reflect heroic victories / tragic events, or the influence of particular commanders. For instance, an Iron Warrior grand company might have armour tinged with a particular colour (for example a slight greenish or bluish cast to the metal?) due to having operated in an area where the atmosphere or radiation from the local star had corroded or interacted with the armour's outer surface, and the effect had been retained even when they relocated... or they had to manufacture armour locally which had a trace metal in the ore which on manufacture had tinted the colour away from its usual colour.

 

Eh, just some random ideas to explain possible differences, and lend a little colour to the background of an army. :lol:

[G3rman]

Thank you for the response sir!

And sorry for making you answer twice, I got a little excited and posted the question here as well. :lol:

EDIT:

Here is my rendition of an IW marine, tried my best with those hazard stripes.

Iron Warrior; Second Grand Company

[lokkorex]

G3rman: that looks so awesome!

[Coryphaus 101]

G3rman: that looks so awesome!

Agreed. That looks so cool.