The History and Legacy of Dorn's Betrayal

[AGPO]

I don't think it's the renaming he's questioning, merely the choice to reverse the names. Sigismund was known as 'The Templar' and thus Abaddon choosing the title of the Arch-Betrayer's right hand man to rename his legion seems a little odd.

[Ubermensch Commander]

I don't think it's the renaming he's questioning, merely the choice to reverse the names. Sigismund was known as 'The Templar' and thus Abaddon choosing the title of the Arch-Betrayer's right hand man to rename his legion seems a little odd.

 

One guy having the title hardly invalidates its use.

 

Even in the normal verse we have folks using "Warmaster" despite Horus holding that title.

 

And, to avoid any associations with the old Imperial (or failed Dornian coup) Sigismund would certainly want to distance himself from using Templar or similar.

[Conn Eremon]

I certainly hope that nobody thought that I was claiming Aurelius' choice was wrong, just that it wouldn't have been the choice I would have made knowing what I do about either of the forces involved and the Dornian Heresy over all. Now, since Aurelius' knowledge about the former might be more, and his knowledge of the latter is quite obviously more, I brought the point up in hopes of getting some insider knowledge. Something that'll make it click, that I can have a "OH! Huh." reply to. What I got was a "wait and see." No insider knowledge, but an acknowledgement. Which, to be honest, is enough. Having read all of the Dornian Heresy so far revealed, I have enough faith in Aurelius to satisfy me in that regard, now that I know that it's not something he's just skipping over.

 

Mostly, I just don't want it to be a gimmicky reason, I want there to be an actual understandable reason. I don't want Sigismund, Abaddon, and their forces to be exact same person, exact same forces, just with flip flopped names. Which, though I am thankful for the attempt to clarify and elaborate, Ubermensch's idea sounds like. Just as the Blood Angels/Death Guard, Space Wolves/World Eaters, Raven Guard/Thousand Sons, or the White Scars/Emperor's Children aren't the same Legions, just with flip-flopped names, neither should the Black Templars/Black Legion.

[Ubermensch Commander]

@Cormac

It is all good. I was merely trying to point out what ( I think) the in-universe reasons would be for both to have flipped names.

No need to be called a Templar when it was A) your Imperial title and :tu: you arent actually going around Crusading.

While old Abby would be Templary because he IS going around Crusading, while trying to not be associated with Old Man Horus falling asleep (see: Dead) on the job.

If Aurelius comes along as says WRONG! Well...so be it. ^_^

But that is what I got out of what has been written for the Dornian Heresy, hope it helps, if not, , wait and see eh?

[Nexus25]

I know I want to hear/see more about the tech the Ultra's have in the Dornian timeline. The armor show in their IA is awesome to say the least. Maybe Terminators with shoulder mounded railguns and stable plasma auto-cannons. Come at me bro!!!! ;)

[Culebras]

I know I want to hear/see more about the tech the Ultra's have in the Dornian timeline. The armor show in their IA is awesome to say the least. Maybe Terminators with shoulder mounded railguns and stable plasma auto-cannons. Come at me bro!!!! :)

 

Having read the entry, I think there are some basic logical hypothesis you can make about the Ultramarine's technology.

 

From the art pieces, we can see that they still employ close combat weapons, including power fists and swords, so it is reasonable to assume that they are not solely ranged focused. Furthermore, we can see them wielding Pulse rifles and modified Plasma pistols, so we can assume that they have adopted changes on both a man personal and armored vehicle level.

 

Further, the fluff points to one of the largest changes. The codex astartes is now fluid and changeable and not static. This means that each Ultramarine chapter has the option to modify and expand its tactics based on the foes it encounters.

 

Finally, we can assume that the Ultramarines have overcome some (but not all) of the techno and xenophobia that plagues the imperium. The work with the tau is an example of this, as are the improvements to both armor and weapon design.

 

So in conclusion, here are my thoughts. Logically, if each chapter is allowed to edit the codex, then they will not all have the same equipment due to the independent nature of Ultramar Segmentum. You might have some chapters which appear very similar to a Normal universe chapter and some that are extremely advanced. This would seem to be confirmed by the fluff piece in which calgar speaks of a grand demonstration to bring the other chapter on board with using rail guns on ships.

 

If we assume that the Ultramarines are leading the way technologicially, here are some logical guesses

 

-You would not see the "hodge-podge" of armors from different era's and times. With constant improvement, old technology would be phased out in favor of new suits. You might be able to find a mark III suit of armor in a museum somewhere, but you are unlikely to see it on an Ultramarine in active service.

 

-No more bolters. You would likely see the complete phasing out of bolters in favor of the longer ranged and stronger Pulse Rifle. Variations of Pulse rifles could appear on vehicles to replace storm bolters and hurricane bolters. If we continue this logic, then replacing assault and auto cannons would also be a likely candidate for replacement. If the plasma weapons are refined enough to be stable, then you could see more of them in units and on vehicles (though it would probably be at the lower strength score you commonly see on eldar and tau Plasma weapons.

 

-more skimmers. Land-speeders would probably be replaced entirely with a hybrid craft that employs the technology taken from the Tau skimmers, (like the Piranha). rhino pattern vehicles might still see some use, but i suspect they would be heavily modified.

 

-Dreadnaughts might exist or they might not. There is evidence for both arguments. If they did, I imagine they would more closely resemble the Tau battle Suits than the traditional ones we expect. I doubt if they would be manned by injured marines kept alive for centuries though as such hide-bound behavior does not reflect the constantly evolving nature of the ultramarines. I also expect that they, and not the terminators, would carry Rail rifles as the power supply for such weapons would be rather intense. That said, there is no reason they could not carry two twin linked Rail cannons. :)

 

-Land raiders could still exist, as there is nothing close to them in the Tau army. such vehicles would likely be heavily changed, and I doubt they would have the same "legacy" fluff you see in Norm versions. Rail Guns and Pulse cannons, and possibly with plasma cannons as well.

 

-Terminator armor, like dreadnoughts, are tricky. This is another legacy armor thing that doesn't really fit with the source material. I can draw no logical conclusions on this one, but if my hypothesis regarding museum pieces is correct, then I would imagine any terminator armor seen on the battlefield would not be thousands of years old. Rather, it would likely represent continual improvements over time, perhaps with ablative surfaces, increased force field generators, better teleporter mechanisms, and maybe even some option for jump packs or jet packs. all are possibilities.

[Nexus25]

I know I want to hear/see more about the tech the Ultra's have in the Dornian timeline. The armor show in their IA is awesome to say the least. Maybe Terminators with shoulder mounded railguns and stable plasma auto-cannons. Come at me bro!!!! :angry:

 

Having read the entry, I think there are some basic logical hypothesis you can make about the Ultramarine's technology.

 

From the art pieces, we can see that they still employ close combat weapons, including power fists and swords, so it is reasonable to assume that they are not solely ranged focused. Furthermore, we can see them wielding Pulse rifles and modified Plasma pistols, so we can assume that they have adopted changes on both a man personal and armored vehicle level.

 

Further, the fluff points to one of the largest changes. The codex astartes is now fluid and changeable and not static. This means that each Ultramarine chapter has the option to modify and expand its tactics based on the foes it encounters.

 

Finally, we can assume that the Ultramarines have overcome some (but not all) of the techno and xenophobia that plagues the imperium. The work with the tau is an example of this, as are the improvements to both armor and weapon design.

 

So in conclusion, here are my thoughts. Logically, if each chapter is allowed to edit the codex, then they will not all have the same equipment due to the independent nature of Ultramar Segmentum. You might have some chapters which appear very similar to a Normal universe chapter and some that are extremely advanced. This would seem to be confirmed by the fluff piece in which calgar speaks of a grand demonstration to bring the other chapter on board with using rail guns on ships.

 

If we assume that the Ultramarines are leading the way technologicially, here are some logical guesses

 

-You would not see the "hodge-podge" of armors from different era's and times. With constant improvement, old technology would be phased out in favor of new suits. You might be able to find a mark III suit of armor in a museum somewhere, but you are unlikely to see it on an Ultramarine in active service.

 

-No more bolters. You would likely see the complete phasing out of bolters in favor of the longer ranged and stronger Pulse Rifle. Variations of Pulse rifles could appear on vehicles to replace storm bolters and hurricane bolters. If we continue this logic, then replacing assault and auto cannons would also be a likely candidate for replacement. If the plasma weapons are refined enough to be stable, then you could see more of them in units and on vehicles (though it would probably be at the lower strength score you commonly see on eldar and tau Plasma weapons.

 

-more skimmers. Land-speeders would probably be replaced entirely with a hybrid craft that employs the technology taken from the Tau skimmers, (like the Piranha). rhino pattern vehicles might still see some use, but i suspect they would be heavily modified.

 

-Dreadnaughts might exist or they might not. There is evidence for both arguments. If they did, I imagine they would more closely resemble the Tau battle Suits than the traditional ones we expect. I doubt if they would be manned by injured marines kept alive for centuries though as such hide-bound behavior does not reflect the constantly evolving nature of the ultramarines. I also expect that they, and not the terminators, would carry Rail rifles as the power supply for such weapons would be rather intense. That said, there is no reason they could not carry two twin linked Rail cannons. ;)

 

-Land raiders could still exist, as there is nothing close to them in the Tau army. such vehicles would likely be heavily changed, and I doubt they would have the same "legacy" fluff you see in Norm versions. Rail Guns and Pulse cannons, and possibly with plasma cannons as well.

 

-Terminator armor, like dreadnoughts, are tricky. This is another legacy armor thing that doesn't really fit with the source material. I can draw no logical conclusions on this one, but if my hypothesis regarding museum pieces is correct, then I would imagine any terminator armor seen on the battlefield would not be thousands of years old. Rather, it would likely represent continual improvements over time, perhaps with ablative surfaces, increased force field generators, better teleporter mechanisms, and maybe even some option for jump packs or jet packs. all are possibilities.

 

I love the thought you put into this. I can see a marriage between sleek Tau design and brutal power of Space Marines. I almost wonder what else they are willing to add tech wise? I.E. maybe bio-weapons from Tyranid, or maybe gauss tech fom necrons. Man suddenly the Smurf's are looking so much cooler in the Dornian universe.

[Ace Debonair]

I don't think it's the renaming he's questioning, merely the choice to reverse the names. Sigismund was known as 'The Templar' and thus Abaddon choosing the title of the Arch-Betrayer's right hand man to rename his legion seems a little odd.

 

My personal theory on this is that DH Sigismund won't have the nickname 'the Templar', so the use of 'Templar' by Abaddon won't seem so out of place.

[Culebras]

I love the thought you put into this. I can see a marriage between sleek Tau design and brutal power of Space Marines. I almost wonder what else they are willing to add tech wise? I.E. maybe bio-weapons from Tyranid, or maybe gauss tech fom necrons. Man suddenly the Smurf's are looking so much cooler in the Dornian universe.

 

 

Thanks, I try.

 

I don't think it's the renaming he's questioning, merely the choice to reverse the names. Sigismund was known as 'The Templar' and thus Abaddon choosing the title of the Arch-Betrayer's right hand man to rename his legion seems a little odd.

 

My personal theory on this is that DH Sigismund won't have the nickname 'the Templar', so the use of 'Templar' by Abaddon won't seem so out of place.

 

that is a possibility. My own personal theory is that, in a reversal from the normal universe, the Black Templars led a number of "Black Crusades" into the eye of terror rather than the other way around (black legion leading crusades out of the eye). However, each time, they were thrown back by the disciplined and powerful defenses of the Black Legion.

[Sun Grilled Bacon]

Dornian Heresy Ultramarines seem to represent what the Imperium would be like without its xenophobia and adherence to tradition...

 

I would think Ultramarines Terminators would be a composite of the Terminator Armour and the Tau Battlesuits, taking the best bits from both.

 

Plasma weapons would probably be used more, seeing as the Ultramarines would have probably taken the Tau plasma tech and used it in their own weapons, creating ridiculously overpowered space marines (no more overheating plasma weapons o_O)

 

Taking the Tau's powerful long range weaponry and the Space Marine's close-combat proficiency, the Dornian Heresy Ultramarines seem to be the most powerful force in the galaxy...

 

With a greater reliance on technology however, would the Ultramarines be less able to take on Chaotic enemies?

[lokkorex]

i've been reading through the iron warriors index astartes, and came up with a few questions, again:

 

1/ their Larramans organ stops functioning after a while?

for me, one of the iconic things about marines in general is just their ability to shrug of lesser wounds like nothing, so doesn't this seriously handicap them?

could they actually bleed to death? or have they developed some sort of bionic replacement?

i haven't read too deep into the other current IA:s except that i know the emperors children have the purest gene-seed, and the thousand sons have a bit of a mutation problem, so that's why this popped out a bit.

 

2/ what are the armaments of the vehicle variants mentioned in the emperors children IA? it mentioned a predator variant called the conqueror pattern, and some other vehicle i believe.

 

3/ do all iron warrior grand companies have access to ordinatii and knight walkers or just the specific grand companies mentioned in the combat doctrine section?

 

thanks in advance for an answer!

[Culebras]

i've been reading through the iron warriors index astartes, and came up with a few questions, again:

 

1/ their Larramans organ stops functioning after a while?

for me, one of the iconic things about marines in general is just their ability to shrug of lesser wounds like nothing, so doesn't this seriously handicap them?

could they actually bleed to death? or have they developed some sort of bionic replacement?

i haven't read too deep into the other current IA:s except that i know the emperors children have the purest gene-seed, and the thousand sons have a bit of a mutation problem, so that's why this popped out a bit.

 

2/ what are the armaments of the vehicle variants mentioned in the emperors children IA? it mentioned a predator variant called the conqueror pattern, and some other vehicle i believe.

 

3/ do all iron warrior grand companies have access to ordinatii and knight walkers or just the specific grand companies mentioned in the combat doctrine section?

 

thanks in advance for an answer!

 

 

1. I think the difference is that they start out fine but need to be replaced with time. It could be that they have some kind of bionic device implanted or element in their armor that fits the same roll. I think its sort of like the Fangs on a space wolf getting longer as they age. As the Iron Warriors get older, they feel it a little more. they aren't as tough as they used to be, their eye sight starts to go, etc. In terms of flavor, it actually fits because it supports both their preference for ranged combat and their natural competitiveness. If you know your captain is starting to get more feeble, then you can wait for the moment to replace him. likewise, if your feeling yourself get slower, you might get more paranoid. I imagine its like an old lion being challenged by a younger male for his pride. Still dangerous, still lethal, but the older one knows time isn't on his side

 

2. I think thats just supposed to be a placeholder. people asked the same thing about the Leman Rus and Aurelius had to make a special entry just for that one.

 

3. Aurelius said a while back to think of each grand company like a chapter. each uses various tactics based on resources and traidition. when you consider that some of these grand companies have been around for 10K+ years, they would have a lot of history.

[lokkorex]

Culebras:

1/ yeah, that makes sense what you said, but does that mean iron warriors are kinda short-lived, compared to the other legions?

 

2/ so could one expect some more info in the completed article?

 

3/ i kinda don't understand what your answer here means. i get that each grand company would build up quite a history over ten thousand years, but what does that really have to do with access to knight walkers and ordinatii?

 

or do you mean that under the millenia, loss of equipment, access to resources and the eccentriity of individual commanders has meant that there are now far more variation between grand companies than during the crusade era, with some commanders having the ability to build and maintain one exotic equipment option, while another commander doesn't but instead have the ability to create and maintain another exotic piece of equipment?

[Culebras]

Culebras:

1/ yeah, that makes sense what you said, but does that mean iron warriors are kinda short-lived, compared to the other legions?

 

2/ so could one expect some more info in the completed article?

 

3/ i kinda don't understand what your answer here means. i get that each grand company would build up quite a history over ten thousand years, but what does that really have to do with access to knight walkers and ordinatii?

 

or do you mean that under the millenia, loss of equipment, access to resources and the eccentriity of individual commanders has meant that there are now far more variation between grand companies than during the crusade era, with some commanders having the ability to build and maintain one exotic equipment option, while another commander doesn't but instead have the ability to create and maintain another exotic piece of equipment?

 

1. Not necesarily. If it was their secondary heart or another of the organs tied in with muscle growth, than maybe, but as it is, they should be able to replace the three they loose with bionics that can compensate, like Aurelius said. More likely, the older marines would simply pull back from the frontlines to places where their superior expertise and experience could be better put to use.

 

2. who knows? I have no answer on that. He could just leave it there for someone to use for their own home-made variant.

 

3. I think your second point hit it on the head. Imagine the difference between an ancient grand company (say the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th company) and a newly minted one (lets randomly pick the 128th grand company). The former could have all kinds of ancient technology, including weapons, armor, vehicles, etc. they have ten thousand years of history and a legacy to draw upon. But, the 2nd would probably differ than the 3rd or the 4th based on what their commanders choose to invest in. The 2nd might have a couple ordanatii waiting in the wings, while the 3rd have some of the best equipped and trained devastators in the galaxy, and the 4th uses lots of vindicators backed up by Knight walkers.

 

On the other hand, our poor little 128th grand company would have only new things or the pieces that the other chapters don't want or whatever they can scrap together. The Iron Warriors don't strike me as being the kind of Legion that is concerned with equality. They compete against each other, basically jockeying for position, glory, power. The new ones don't want to be stuck on garrison duty all the time, they want to get out there and prove themselves. Earn a reputation. Make a name. and then maybe parley that into better equipment and weapons.

[lokkorex]

Culebras: good, i think i understand things a bit better now, thank you for caring enough to discuss this with me.

[Aurelius Rex]

It looks like Culebras has astutely and eloquently answered that! -_-

 

As to adding more stuff in the completed PDF, it is possible, as I made a lot of changes to the articles before the first Legio Imprint came out, but I don't want to add too much more, if only because I still want to leave some areas of calculated ambiguity.

 

Regarding the Emperor's Children variants, I shall get back to you on that once I have reviewed the article and remembered the details. Obviously the Tilvius APC variant - which the EC don't use - is the alternate universe name for the Razorback. The STC for the vehicle was found by Tilvius in both timelines, but in one it was named after the man himself, in the same way that the Land Raider was named after Arkhan (?) Land.

 

+++ Edit - Found the quote from the original article in this thread - don't think there were many important changes in the PDF...

 

Their steadfast rejection of technological developments has meant that many vehicles commonly used by the other legions are absent from the armouries of the Emperor’s Children. For them the trusted, ancient marks of Predator, Rhino and Land Raider are more than sufficient. Modifications such as the Tilvius APC or the brutish Vindicator are looked upon as at best a corruption of the purity of the venerable Rhino chassis. Even smaller variants in weapon system such as the Predator Dominator and the Land Raider Incinerator are shunned.

 

In an example of parallel evolution the Predator Dominator mirrors the Annihilator. The SW invented it in the Norm-'verse, and the idea of a turret with twin-linked lascannons is just such a useful one that someone else had to eventually come up with it in the alternate timeline. This doesn't rule out other variants, of course, including others not seen in the standard timeline.

 

You can probably guess what the Land Raider Incinerator is. :D The plan is to include a mention of it in some form in the upcoming Salamanders IA article, due April 1st.

[lokkorex]

Aurelius Rex: thank you for clearing that up so efficiently. up until now i had believed these variants had very different weapon systems to the basic rhino and land raider patterns.

 

so:

Tilvius APC=Razorback.

Predator Dominator=Predator Annihilator.

Land Raider Incinerator=Land Raider Redeemer.

[Culebras]

So I have a question. If the World Weaters and the Night Lords didn't get along during the heresy, what does their relationship look like now? Is it like the Lion and the wolf rivalry? and What about the Emperor's Children and the Word Bearers. Do the Ec hold any grudges regarding that whole age of apostasy thing? anybody have any thoughts?

[AGPO]

Regarding the 'Alt'verse' Ultramarines, I think the degree to which tech has progressed tells us quite a bit. Clearly the Ultramarines still cannot fully understand their own technology. 10,000 years is a massive ammount of time. 10,000 years ago on Earth humanity was just discovering agriculture and pottery, with stone tools still being commonplace. If the Ultramarines had been inovating all that time whilst the Imperium stood still, then even with a fraction of their numbers they would have overthrown them long ago. Even with recent changes they still vastly overpower Imperial marines. Imagine what a single chapter could do with every marine armed with a pulse rifle or stabilised plasma weapon. Now imagine that chapter has maintained the older, more efficient methods of producing marines and equpment from before the heresy, with none of the mysticism attached. Bearing in mind what Huron did starting with a regular, normverse chapter, what could Alt'verse Calgar do now?

 

As the Imperium still exists, we therefore have to assume that whilst Ultramar takes a more rational approach to what technology is and how it works, they are still dependant on reverse engineering and STCs. They can tweak and borrow but they don't have the scientific understanding to make great leaps forward in the same way the Tau do. Incorperating Tau technology seems like sound strategy, and maybe they could have incorperated other elements. There have been other, advanced human societies in the Heresy series after all, maybe elements of these are incorperated into Ultramar.

[Allfather1]

Regarding the 'Alt'verse' Ultramarines, I think the degree to which tech has progressed tells us quite a bit. Clearly the Ultramarines still cannot fully understand their own technology. 10,000 years is a massive ammount of time. 10,000 years ago on Earth humanity was just discovering agriculture and pottery, with stone tools still being commonplace. If the Ultramarines had been inovating all that time whilst the Imperium stood still, then even with a fraction of their numbers they would have overthrown them long ago. Even with recent changes they still vastly overpower Imperial marines. Imagine what a single chapter could do with every marine armed with a pulse rifle or stabilised plasma weapon. Now imagine that chapter has maintained the older, more efficient methods of producing marines and equpment from before the heresy, with none of the mysticism attached. Bearing in mind what Huron did starting with a regular, normverse chapter, what could Alt'verse Calgar do now?

 

As the Imperium still exists, we therefore have to assume that whilst Ultramar takes a more rational approach to what technology is and how it works, they are still dependant on reverse engineering and STCs. They can tweak and borrow but they don't have the scientific understanding to make great leaps forward in the same way the Tau do. Incorperating Tau technology seems like sound strategy, and maybe they could have incorperated other elements. There have been other, advanced human societies in the Heresy series after all, maybe elements of these are incorperated into Ultramar.

 

The problem Ultramar had is that many chapters take things slow regarding technology because their mindset is that "it was good enough for Guilliman, it's good enough for us."

Also most human societies are also based on STC's with only a handfull scattered across the Galaxy that have better technology.

They also face not only the Imperium but also Xenos and Chaos. The Imperium seems to be bigger then Ultramar and so they would field more guardsmen, ships etc.

 

But I think the Alpha Legion and the Iron Warriors are also key to the Ultramarines not having conquered the Imperium yet.

For years the Alpha Legion worked only in Ultramar, the Iron Warriors are masters of siege warfare and so a world garrisoned by them would probably take years to conquer.

Then you have the fear that instilled into the Imperium by the Night Lords. An Imperial Guardsmen may rather die on the battlefield then by visited by them.

 

I agree that they might not understand their own technology but they understand it much better then the Imperium. At least that's what I think.

[AGPO]

The problem Ultramar had is that many chapters take things slow regarding technology because their mindset is that "it was good enough for Guilliman, it's good enough for us."

There's slowly and then there's the pace of Ultramar. In the timeframe we're talking about human weapon technology went from pointed sticks to nuclear missiles and fighter jets.

 

They also face not only the Imperium but also Xenos and Chaos. The Imperium seems to be bigger then Ultramar and so they would field more guardsmen, ships etc.

Weapons technology (and technology in general) advances faster during periods of war than it does in peacetime. Also, numbers aren't going to make that big a difference, especially with Guardsmen against Space Marines. If you were to pit a thousand medieval peasant levies against ten fully equipped members of the SAS it'd be pretty clear who would come out on top, and we're talking 1,000, not 10,000 years with that analogy.

 

But I think the Alpha Legion and the Iron Warriors are also key to the Ultramarines not having conquered the Imperium yet.

For years the Alpha Legion worked only in Ultramar, the Iron Warriors are masters of siege warfare and so a world garrisoned by them would probably take years to conquer.

Then you have the fear that instilled into the Imperium by the Night Lords. An Imperial Guardsmen may rather die on the battlefield then by visited by them.

 

Again this doesn't measure up. The Iron Warriors may be masters of seigecraft at an Imperial level of technology, but how long would the Seige of Troy have taken a modern military, maybe half an hour? The Guardsmen may well be willing to die, but that's still exactly what they'd do. Courage alone will win no wars if you lack the strength to hurt your opponent. The Alpha Legion may have held them back a little at the start but we're talking ten thousand years to develop one game changing advantage. It's almost impossible for it not to have happened. If you look back one hundred years from now you're looking at WWI soldiers against modern marines. If you look back at the hundred years before that you're sending those WWI machine guns up against Napoleonic troops able to fire a maximum of four rounds a minute. In the six years of WWII we moved from fixed wing bi-planes to jet aircraft and developed the nuclear bomb. Battleships built brand new at the start of the war were entirely redundant by the end of it.

 

My point is, there has to be something huge holding Ultramar back, because lack of understanding or not, it takes something more than conservatism to explain their lack of progress. The timeframe we're discussing is the entire period of human civilisation up to this point. If you have a progressive attitude to technology then by the end of such a period your technology should be godlike to anyone from the start of it.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Salamanders due April 1st? I smell a foolery.

[Culebras]

Regarding the 'Alt'verse' Ultramarines, I think the degree to which tech has progressed tells us quite a bit. Clearly the Ultramarines still cannot fully understand their own technology. 10,000 years is a massive ammount of time. 10,000 years ago on Earth humanity was just discovering agriculture and pottery, with stone tools still being commonplace. If the Ultramarines had been inovating all that time whilst the Imperium stood still, then even with a fraction of their numbers they would have overthrown them long ago. Even with recent changes they still vastly overpower Imperial marines. Imagine what a single chapter could do with every marine armed with a pulse rifle or stabilised plasma weapon. Now imagine that chapter has maintained the older, more efficient methods of producing marines and equpment from before the heresy, with none of the mysticism attached. Bearing in mind what Huron did starting with a regular, normverse chapter, what could Alt'verse Calgar do now?

 

As the Imperium still exists, we therefore have to assume that whilst Ultramar takes a more rational approach to what technology is and how it works, they are still dependant on reverse engineering and STCs. They can tweak and borrow but they don't have the scientific understanding to make great leaps forward in the same way the Tau do. Incorperating Tau technology seems like sound strategy, and maybe they could have incorperated other elements. There have been other, advanced human societies in the Heresy series after all, maybe elements of these are incorperated into Ultramar.

 

Hey, just wanted to chime in and point to a couple things from the entry. I think you have some good points regarding tau technology and the inability to make big leaps forward, but I think there are several additional factors to consider.

 

To Quote the entry

“My brothers, we have become complacent. Yes, our technology is superior to that of the Imperium, but our advances have come in tiny increments – continual evolutionary improvements - rather than the leaps forward that will be required to defeat the next hive-fleet, or to finally break the stalemate with the Imperium and reclaim Terra for all humanity.

“Look to the Tau. In the millennia that we have been facing down the Imperium and the Ruinous Powers they have grown from dwelling in caves to mastering technology that in some cases exceeds even our own understanding. By their unprovoked attacks across the Damocles Gulf, the Tau have rendered their treaties with us null and void, including those about the use of their weaponry.

“The time has come to put aside our pride and our preconceptions and use this new source of technology to strengthen our fleets, our defences and our Astartes. If we do not, if we instead blindly and timidly continue as we always have, we will inevitably fall to the enemies that surround us.”

- Chapter Master Marneus Calgar, after the First Tyrannic War.

 

Calgar states that the Ultramarines have been improving their armor but in slow steps rather than large leaps. He also states that they are facing a stalemate with the imperium despite having superior technology. While the reason for the stalemate is never given, There are a number of possibilities, including differences in resources (Ultramar segmentum is not nearly as large as the rest of the Imperium and thus has a disadvantage both in manufacturing power and labor pool) and ideology. Strategically, a technologically advanced army can be countered by a more numerous if less advanced foe, especially if outnumbered. Likewise, the imperium is much more ruthless than the Ultramar and willing to inflict and take casualties that would exhaust a lesser opponent. one of the reasons that the Russians were victorious over the Germans during world war II was they were able to sustain ridiculously high numbers of casualties and keep fighting. A similar argument could be made for the orks as their low technology is compensated by their extremely high population size and willingness to take casualties.

 

Also, according to the following quote

Calgar had warned his fellow chapter masters after the First Tyrannic War, but only a few of them had been willing to listen. Mastery of the Macragge Chapter brought with it a great deal of influence over the other chapters, but he did not control them. According to tradition going back to Guilliman‟s defiance of Consul Gallan, each chapter master had ultimate authority within his own realm, and the inertia of history could not easily be overcome. The concept of gradual evolution had become the norm within Ultramar Segmentum, and even in the face of dire threats, revolutionary ideas and approaches were shunned, despite Guilliman himself carrying out such actions on countless occasions. Even on Macragge alone, Calgar‟s scribes had returned from the archives bearing reports of groundbreaking developments in weaponry that had been rejected by chapter masters down the ages as being too radical. Advances that could have saved countless lives had been quietly filed away and forgotten. He could only imagine what wonders lay mouldering in the vaults of the other chapters...

 

This quote partially supports your premise regarding fear of technological change and also points to another factor; the division of the chapters. The Imperium can be seen from the outside as a monolithic organization based on a central authority enforced by agents, armies, and bureaucracies. On the other hand, Ultramar segmentum seems more like a federation of associated but disagreeable city states and baronies. In theory, they can unite together for mutual support and survival, but there is no single central authority that can command the entirety of Ultramar. Likewise, technological levels would seem to vary from chapter to chapter based on the preferences of the Chapter Master.

 

another thing I would like to point out is that there are a number of countries on earth which haven't changed that much in the last 10,000 years. Technological development on earth has been uneven and there are many countries that struggle with basic things, like clean running water and growing food. There are clues that indicate that Ultramar may be just as divided. The lack of Astropaths mean that the systems would be cut off with severely limited options for communications. As there is no mention to any form of unified adeptus mechanicus under Ultramar, and such, there is no guarantee of a means to efficiently disperse new technology. likewise, with chapter master's operating like feudal lords with control over their regions, there is the potential for political conflicts and disagreements that limit trade and development. All of these could contribute to a wide divergence in living conditions throughout ultramar. While life would, in all likelihood, be less horrific and hopeless compared to what goes on in the Imperium, I find nothing in the article to indicate that all the worlds in Ultramar are on the same level, technilogically or otherwise.

 

to continue the previous quote

It felt like a betrayal of his primarch to even think such a thing, but in part he blamed the Codex Ultramar. Guilliman‟s master-work was so useful and all-encompassing that in some cases it seemed to have replaced the need for independent thought. He had applied the most promising innovations, combined with the best insights gleaned from the Tau, to resurrect the Seditio Opprimere. In the face of such scepticism, though, it seemed that only a comprehensive and overwhelmingly successful field-test would shake the other chapter masters out of their complacency.

 

Here, Calgar points to the Codex as being the source of part of the cause for the technological limitation. In this case, I think its fair to say that the cause of Ultramar's slow development has more to do with tradition and stubborness than fear and distrust. I'm sure the latter play a part, but it seems like Aurlius is emphasizing a more hide-bound system that relies as the codex as a mental crutch that limits true innovation. As long as things don't stray too far from the codex, it may have been considered acceptable, but when people started going outside the lines (like perhaps replacing bolters with pulse rifles) traditionalists start asking why are you diverging from the codex. the codex has worked so well for so long. If its not broken, why try and fix it.

 

Finally, you ask the question why hasn't Ultramar overthrown the Imperium. I think the article answers this. It states that the Ultramarines have never launched a crusade into imperial space. most of the gains have occured when new chapters (at max thats 1,000 marines) invade the imperium and liberate a section of space, expanding the borders of Ultramar a little. This fits with the divided Ultramar theory i mentioned earlier. With legions like the Iron Warriors standing at the border, ready to rush in, a single chapter isn't going to accomplish much before facing a strong counter attack, and if some of the chapter's focused inward on suppressing ork infestation and Alpha legion terrorist attacks, they would be less inclined to commit their forces to aiding their neighbors unless absolutely necessary.

 

So in conclusion, would reply that the reason for the Ultramarines slow technological development can be blamed, not wholly on fear, but on hide-bound adherence to tradition and internal division that has prevented a strong central authority from enforcing positive change on a wide scale or marshalling the entire force of the Ultramarines unless in extreme circumstances.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Further, the fluff points to one of the largest changes. The codex astartes is now fluid and changeable and not static. This means that each Ultramarine chapter has the option to modify and expand its tactics based on the foes it encounters.

This is actually the way the Codex Astartes has always been. Somebody just forgot to explain how it works to Graham McNeill before he wrote all of his Ultramarines novels. It was never supposed to be some kind of idiotic "If A, then B" instruction manual for war, and the Ultramarines revering it and holding to its teachings was supposed to be one of their greatest strengths, not a crippling weakness, lol. Apparently, whomever wrote that part of the Dornian Heresy just gave the Codex Astartes a bit more thought and consideration to how such a book would actually work. Or, maybe they just read the original fluff on it, lol.

[Culebras]

Sorry to post again, but i just saw your replies and wanted to address them.

 

The problem Ultramar had is that many chapters take things slow regarding technology because their mindset is that "it was good enough for Guilliman, it's good enough for us."

There's slowly and then there's the pace of Ultramar. In the timeframe we're talking about human weapon technology went from pointed sticks to nuclear missiles and fighter jets.

 

True, but Jet planes and Nuclear weapons have only existed for barely the last hundred years. go back a mere 200 and you would see armies with muskets and bayonets fighting spears and arrows. go back one thousand, and you would see swords and spears. go back three thousand and you would see people using spears and slings. Consider that horses in warfare was an idea that only disappeared a hundred years ago after having an extremely long tradition. Weapon technology does not grow at any set pace and the developments of the last century, though unprecedented, do not reflect the whole of human history. Some developments have been simple while others have taken huge investments in time and energy to get off the ground.

 

Further, i would like to point out that 40k is intended to be fantastical and any comparisons to real world events should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

They also face not only the Imperium but also Xenos and Chaos. The Imperium seems to be bigger then Ultramar and so they would field more guardsmen, ships etc.

Weapons technology (and technology in general) advances faster during periods of war than it does in peacetime. Also, numbers aren't going to make that big a difference, especially with Guardsmen against Space Marines. If you were to pit a thousand medieval peasant levies against ten fully equipped members of the SAS it'd be pretty clear who would come out on top, and we're talking 1,000, not 10,000 years with that analogy.

 

I think you are being a bit generous to the SAS in your example. Under that logic, Marines should have nothing to fear from basic Orks, who use a level of technology that is comparable to modern day firearms and wield what effectively amount to large meat cleavers. In the same vein, Tau, who have technology that is superior to both Orks and Guardsmen, should always win because they have more advanced tech and can adapt faster.

 

While it is true that Weapons technology advances faster during combat circumstances, it is limited by matters of resources and time. During the second world war, the German military made efforts to develop several new weapons of war, including the jet plane, but limitations on resources and time kept them from ever materializing in a way that allowed them to be game changers and allow the germans to win the war. The germans had to make a choice between diverting resources to build a new and untested piece of technology and using those same resources to build old planes with a proven track record of success.

 

But I think the Alpha Legion and the Iron Warriors are also key to the Ultramarines not having conquered the Imperium yet.

For years the Alpha Legion worked only in Ultramar, the Iron Warriors are masters of siege warfare and so a world garrisoned by them would probably take years to conquer.

Then you have the fear that instilled into the Imperium by the Night Lords. An Imperial Guardsmen may rather die on the battlefield then by visited by them.

 

Again this doesn't measure up. The Iron Warriors may be masters of seigecraft at an Imperial level of technology, but how long would the Seige of Troy have taken a modern military, maybe half an hour? The Guardsmen may well be willing to die, but that's still exactly what they'd do. Courage alone will win no wars if you lack the strength to hurt your opponent. The Alpha Legion may have held them back a little at the start but we're talking ten thousand years to develop one game changing advantage. It's almost impossible for it not to have happened. If you look back one hundred years from now you're looking at WWI soldiers against modern marines. If you look back at the hundred years before that you're sending those WWI machine guns up against Napoleonic troops able to fire a maximum of four rounds a minute. In the six years of WWII we moved from fixed wing bi-planes to jet aircraft and developed the nuclear bomb. Battleships built brand new at the start of the war were entirely redundant by the end of it.

 

My point is, there has to be something huge holding Ultramar back, because lack of understanding or not, it takes something more than conservatism to explain their lack of progress. The timeframe we're discussing is the entire period of human civilisation up to this point. If you have a progressive attitude to technology then by the end of such a period your technology should be godlike to anyone from the start of it.

 

I would agree with you here. The iron warriors represent one of the paradoxes of the 40k universe in that the method of warfare they employ (trench warfare and siege demolitions) has been rendered mostly obsolete in the modern world of bunker busting bombs and air superiority. and yet it is part of the 40k flavor and environment that perfectly reflects the grim darkness of the setting. if this were a real world game, then they would not work. but its not a real world game.

 

As for the Alpha legion, we need look no further than recent history to know that terrorism is able to cause mass damage using mundane tools. Millions of dollars have been spent developing high tech solutions for low tech dangers. And its not as if the Alpha legion are limited in their options of tools. they are a "by any means necessary force" without any real oversight. anything the Ultramarines might develop, the Alphas would be there working on a counter. The Ultramarines have a new plasma pistol? boom, alphas assassinate the scientists responsible and blow up his lab. or worse, insert flaws that only show up later. Ultramarines start incorporating Rail guns into the ships? you think the Alphas are going to just sit by and not try and smuggle some of the specs back to the Imperium to be decoded? Maybe the Alphas are the real reason technology hasn't deveoped as fast because they keep working to counter any advantage the Ultras might get.

 

Anyways, my point is that I don't disagree with all of your arguments. something like the Iron warriors do seem out of place considering how forms of warfare have changed. However, i feel that your comparisons are misleading. modern soldiers have the advantage of better weapons and training, but if you were to throw enough enemies at them (even assuming huge technological disadvantage) eventually the principles of attrition would come into play. And if there is one form of warfare that the Imperium is a master of, it is Attrition.