The History and Legacy of Dorn's Betrayal

[bogdan]

Aurelius :

1.Does the IOM has better psyker technology than canon IOM, and better psyker tech than Ultramar because of the Thousand Sons,Alpha Legion,Word Bearer?

2.What is the policy of the DH IOM in regards with psykers?

3.Does the Word Bearer Legion managed to weaponrize faith in the Emperor?

[modernangelofdeath]

Aurelius :

1.Does the IOM has better psyker technology than canon IOM, and better psyker tech than Ultramar because of the Thousand Sons,Alpha Legion,Word Bearer?

2.What is the policy of the DH IOM in regards with psykers?

3.Does the Word Bearer Legion managed to weaponrize faith in the Emperor?

I can answer the second for you, mostly because its in the Thousand Sons IA. the psykers are treated like the Sons, in that they all are soul sealed to prevent deamonic possesion, though its probably weaker in the humans. also, this means that the "Black Ships" are most likely more important, because all psykers need to be sealed to prevent possesion.

[bogdan]

Aurelius :

1.Does the IOM has better psyker technology than canon IOM, and better psyker tech than Ultramar because of the Thousand Sons,Alpha Legion,Word Bearer?

2.What is the policy of the DH IOM in regards with psykers?

3.Does the Word Bearer Legion managed to weaponrize faith in the Emperor?

I can answer the second for you, mostly because its in the Thousand Sons IA. the psykers are treated like the Sons, in that they all are soul sealed to prevent deamonic possesion, though its probably weaker in the humans. also, this means that the "Black Ships" are most likely more important, because all psykers need to be sealed to prevent possesion.

Then the psykers are better treated than the cannon IOM? They should be with an entire legion that is understanding to their plight and another that is heavily involved in psykers research(Word Bearer even before falling to chaos) and legion(outside Death Guard ) that really hates them. Also psykers should have impressed with their abilities normal people during the Heresy(in a good way).

Maybe the reason why Ultramar doesn't expand as much as possible is because the IOM tech is supplemented with better warp and psyker tech.

[Allfather1]

I thought that it was said in the Thousand Sons IA that Psykers were still treated as in the Horus Heresy universe.

[Kelbor-Hal]

I don't want to seem impatient, but: When??? :teehee:

[Aurelius Rex]

Aurelius :

1.Does the IOM has better psyker technology than canon IOM, and better psyker tech than Ultramar because of the Thousand Sons,Alpha Legion,Word Bearer?

2.What is the policy of the DH IOM in regards with psykers?

3.Does the Word Bearer Legion managed to weaponrize faith in the Emperor?

Hmmm... glad you raised this. :) Well, the Thousand Sons would cerrtainly have the know-how, and the power to create some very impressive psyker 'technology' - they sort of have made their home on Terra and are on very good terms with other heavy hitting legions like the Black Templars and the Word Bearers. How much that has leaked beyond the borders of the legion itself is open for debate. As to the policy of the Imperium, the Thousand Sons have made the sacrifice of Soul Binding and so are protected from the flesh-change curse and psychically by the Emperor's power, but not all psykers, or even other loyalist librarians are soul-bound. Not sure if I made it clear in the Tsons IA, but that was the price the legion paid at Nikaea, wheras other loyalist librarians got to keep their eyes. Sorry - tangent.

 

Anyway, the Tsons IA heavily hints that the danger of (non-soul-bound) psykers inadvertantly acting as conduits to the Ruinous Powers is still very real, and that these unbound psykers are still treated with athe same mixture of hatred and fear by the average Imperial citizen. Every few millennia there are vocal calls from various Imperial factions demanding that the judgement of Nikaea be extended - wanting to soul-bind all Imperial psykers to the Emperor, not just the Thousand Sons. This usually happens after a major daemonic incursion, or just due to politicking Imperial governors playing on anti-psyker prejudices. When this happens it is hotly debated, right up to the High Lords of Terra, but has never been passed, possibly due to the opposition of Magnus. What this would do in practice has been fiercely debated by many learned bodies, with some saying it would be dangerous for the Emperor, and others saying it would be of great benefit. Would it 'dilute' his soul so much that he gave up his tenuous link to the physical universe, or would the support of so many followers strengthen Him (which is similar to what Magnus is trying to secretly do with the Grey Knights) but the potential dangers have scared many off of the idea.

 

As to weaponising faith? Well, the Sisters have managed it in the Norm-'verse, so perhaps the Word Bearers could too. Contempt is their armour and faith their shield!

 

 

@Kelbor-Hal It will be ready as soon as I can get it complete... When is the last day of the month? ;) I will give notice of when it will appear beforehand in the post's sub-title line, so you will be able to see it from the HH section index page without coming into the thread itself. :)

[Kelbor-Hal]

@Kelbor-Hal It will be ready as soon as I can get it complete... When is the last day of the month? :) I will give notice of when it will appear beforehand in the post's sub-title line, so you will be able to see it from the HH section index page without coming into the thread itself. :)

 

Got it :) Sorry for being so fidgety, but I can hardly wait the new IA (addict still on board :blush: ).

[Culebras]

While we are waiting with baited breath for the release of the Salamander entry, I had a few thoughts today I wanted to share.

 

First, as some of you may know, Forge World just announced the Storm Eagle model (and if you don't know what that is, follow the link below.) Anyway, I was thinking that this might be the perfect model for what the Dorn Universe Ultramarines would use for their main armored transports. If we extrapolate that, like the tau, the ultras would rely on anti-grav craft, then the Storm Eagle would seem like the perfect compromise frame. its tough and durable yet flexible and fast. what do people think?

 

Second, I was thinking about world eaters and iconography and realized there wasn't much available for decorations. then I had the idea of making the jaws of the world eater into the mouth of an animal like a lion and the idea sort of stuck. So picture this, a world eater captain with his shoulder pauldrons shaped like a roaring line with a planet clenched (protectively or aggresively) in its teeth. Not sure if the idea works so I thought I would throw it out there while we are waiting.

 

BTW, here is the link

 

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff/STORM_EAGLE.html

[modernangelofdeath]

I was thinking about world eaters and iconography and realized there wasn't much available for decorations. then I had the idea of making the jaws of the world eater into the mouth of an animal like a lion and the idea sort of stuck. So picture this, a world eater captain with his shoulder pauldrons shaped like a roaring line with a planet clenched (protectively or aggresively) in its teeth. Not sure if the idea works so I thought I would throw it out there while we are waiting.

it makes sense, the Alt verse world eaters are supposed to be noble, and a lion is ussualy depicted as a sign of noblity. i think it works.

[Kelbor-Hal]

Well, the 'jaws holding a planet' is too World Eatery for me. I think teheir decoration should be more like the norm verse Grey Knights/Demon Hunters, Dark Angels, or Blood Angels models'.

[Culebras]

Well, the 'jaws holding a planet' is too World Eatery for me. I think teheir decoration should be more like the norm verse Grey Knights/Demon Hunters, Dark Angels, or Blood Angels models'.

 

 

I'm not sure I follow. can you give more of a description. Since the world eater symbol is a planet between two jaws, I thought attaching the jaws to something might work.

[Raven Angel]

Yea how can they be world eters and not have a World Eatery insignia?

[Conn Eremon]

I believe Kelbor-Hal might be referring to the drastic differences between the World Eaters of each universe when wondering if the iconography might be, or should be, different.

 

As far as I'm concerned, they're still called the World Eaters. The Eaters of Worlds. So the iconography of jaws bracketing planets is still very much a valid symbol for them to have.

 

That said, I do love the idea that it might be different in ways to better emulate how different Aurelius' World Eaters are. Normal 'verse World Eaters show the planets cracking under pressure. For the Dornian Heresy World Eaters, the worlds should be pristine. The difference being, like mentioned earlier, a protective symbolism rather than a destructive one. Having the jaws being a lion is interesting, but I'd go a step further. In the Dornian Heresy, the Legions are still intact, however it was mentioned that they are broken down into very autonomous forces not to dissimilar to 40k's Chapters. They are parts of a whole, but they are very distinctive, independent parts. Having the jaws be different animals, and the worlds having different topography, could be a really great way to show these distinctions in the World Eater Legion. Each 'Chapter' (Or Great Company or whatever they refer to them as) has as their topography their own totem beast's jaws holding the worlds under their direct influence. So the Legion's symbol remains that of jaws clenching worlds, but how each independent force represents that symbol is unique to that force.

[modernangelofdeath]

I believe Kelbor-Hal might be referring to the drastic differences between the World Eaters of each universe when wondering if the iconography might be, or should be, different.

 

As far as I'm concerned, they're still called the World Eaters. The Eaters of Worlds. So the iconography of jaws bracketing planets is still very much a valid symbol for them to have.

 

That said, I do love the idea that it might be different in ways to better emulate how different Aurelius' World Eaters are. Normal 'verse World Eaters show the planets cracking under pressure. For the Dornian Heresy World Eaters, the worlds should be pristine. The difference being, like mentioned earlier, a protective symbolism rather than a destructive one. Having the jaws being a lion is interesting, but I'd go a step further. In the Dornian Heresy, the Legions are still intact, however it was mentioned that they are broken down into very autonomous forces not to dissimilar to 40k's Chapters. They are parts of a whole, but they are very distinctive, independent parts. Having the jaws be different animals, and the worlds having different topography, could be a really great way to show these distinctions in the World Eater Legion. Each 'Chapter' (Or Great Company or whatever they refer to them as) has as their topography their own totem beast's jaws holding the worlds under their direct influence. So the Legion's symbol remains that of jaws clenching worlds, but how each independent force represents that symbol is unique to that force.

another good idea could have the world held between two hands, showing protection rather than desruction.

[Kelbor-Hal]

Ok, maybe the diffenrance shouldn't be so extreme, the world between the jaws could stay, I suppose, but it should be sourrounded by some of the knightly iconography of the Grey Knights or the Dark Angels. I also think, without too much emphasis on the wings, the sanguinary guard models could also be used as World Eater champions (or Word Bearers, not sure which option would be more suitable).

The reason why I think the knightly stuff should be used in their decoration more dinamically is because in the DH the legion discarded the old ways of the galdiators more evidently, so this should have an effect on their symbolism. But I think Cormac Airt's idea is one of the usable roundabouts for the "problem".

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Sounds like the banner you should use is a knightly world eater whisping away a worlds essence through his power helmet rarther than the original pre heresy/ post heresy fangs stuck in a planet .

[AGPO]

Perhaps go the other way. The pre-heresy World Eaters still had the jaws symbol, so why not have it over a distinctly alien world or daemon world? Fenris or Macragge would do nicely. The World Eaters are still the destroyers of worlds, but only hostile alien ones.

[Raven Angel]

Alternatively you could do things like add a grand gaurd to the chest with pesonal heraldrey to play up the knight theme and use GK models to build the army

[Culebras]

So many good ideas in this thread. always such an interesting read.

 

@cormac

 

I like you idea there. different animals would definetly work as a way to differentiate the different companies.

 

@kelbor

 

The one problem with disregarding the jaw is that the picture from the Legio Imprint shows them on the shoulder.

 

@AGPO

 

another good idea, i guess it depends on whether you want to emphasize your marines as destroyers or protectors.

 

 

On a Related not

I had a thought regarding Scouts after I was considering how the recruitment process would differ in a universe without the codex astartes.

 

Considering how the World Eater's emphasize control of their emotions and avoiding the risk of becoming blood drunk, I thought that this would be key to the education process of WorldEater scouts. My theory is that World Eater Scouts would start out as snipers, infiltrators, and long range support (possibly as spotters for devastators). they would stay in this position until they could prove their ability to keep calm and in control during the heat of battle. Once a scout has demonstrated his mettle, he would then be promoted to a position in a tactical squads. there, he would face opponents close in and get his first taste of melee. If he acquits himself honorably, he would then be allowed to take his place in an assault squad.

 

I figured that there would probably be additional commemorating each step along the path. A ritual for when the recruit takes on the tatoos honoring the removal of the aggression chips, the presenting of a initiates forst chain ax, etc.

 

I also started thinking how this might differ with other chapters

 

In addition tot he World Eaters, Had the same thoughts for the other loyal legions.

 

Emperor's Children = Black Templar, Knight/apprentice relationship. Teacher helps the student and impresses on him the importance of living up to the EC's legacy.

 

Iron Warrior = no scouts, recruits train as part of a team tending artillery or garrisoning worlds until they get the chance to prove themselves.

 

Word Bearers = monk/deacon/priest progression? Word Bearer's are described as having a flexible structure. I figured that recruits would first start out like monks, then progressing to new levels based on their knowledge of the Imperial creed and battle. maybe they get deployed to minister to Some fraternis Milita for a while.

 

Thousand Sons = Similiar to Grey Knights.

 

Alpha Legion = not sure. Spy like? long term deep cover missions? infiltration? date gathering?

 

Night Lords = not sure... any ideas?

[Conn Eremon]

Your scouts thing for the World Eaters doesn't really sit well with me. If the intention is to prove their ability to keep cool and calm in the face of mayhem, wouldn't they want to place them somewhere that would actually test it? Keeping them back and removed, while an effective military tactic obviously, wouldn't really prepare them for that sort of thing. Perhaps they'd be more like the Space Wolves. Their recruits are just as wild as the canon World Eaters, and are fielded not much differently. However, the over-all demeanor of the Legion works to guide and shape that nature into what they have become in the Dornian Heresy. So they'd begin not necessarily as berserkers but as an undisciplined lot. This whole time the Legion will be indoctrinating them to their rigid, disciplined ways, not leaving this stage until they are able to control their emotions and bloodlust. After which they are moved either to the Tactical or Devastator squads.

 

For the Alpha Legion, I'd assume infiltration, data gathering and such would be the case. When the Alpha Legion attack, infiltrated scouts create pockets of violence behind enemy lines sort of thing.

 

Night Lords: Probably the most terrifying indoctrination ever. I'm unfortunately having trouble putting my idea into words, but I think they'd inflict upon themselves what they inflict upon others. Both to give the recruits a personal experience with fear to gain a deeper understanding of it, and to deaden themselves to it, even more so than what would be normal for a Marine (which is already quite high what with the whole "know no fear" thing), all to prepare them for when they utilize the same tactics against the enemy. I'd rather think that a Night Lord recruit would be in for a very rough time, and many would crack just under the mental pressure of it.

 

EDIT: I love the Emperor's Children idea. I've always thought they'd had an ancient Greece style to them, and the master/apprentice relationship was a very important social dynamic to them (and no, I don't mean that kind of relationship). And the way Fulgrim described the Legion was very similar, with the higher ranks acting as inspiration to the lower ranks on how to perfect themselves. Breaking it down to the individual scale, you could say that every ranking officer has one, or a small handful of, apprentices who operate as seconds-in-command and are next in line for promotion. There could be a higher proportion of veteran scouts, who will take with them smaller groups of recruits. The more promising recruits paired with a veteran, no other apprentices beside him, to have a more personal one on one interaction.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Im very interested to see what you devised to create Malalmanders. How you would make it realistic enough mainly. The thought that a whole chapter of Salamanders devote themselfs to Malal is an interesting one. (As I'd see Malal's blessing going to a different chapter such as the Nightlords or maybe even Alpha Legion)

 

Can you not drop a hint please, as I enjoy creating theories as to how I will think it will happen then comparing it to what you have actually devised.

 

;)

[Coryphaus 101]

Hopefully we won't have much longer to wait The_son_of_Dorn. It is the end of April after all (:) Aurelius :)).

[AGPO]

On the subjec of scouts, it's worth noting that it was Guiliman who introduced the 10th company as a way of training recruits. Before that each legion had its own methods of bringing recruits through. Also the different means of producing marines pre-heresy means that the main rationale for having new recruits fight as scouts - the inability to fully interface with power armour - was not a factor. I think the Black Templar noviate/initiate model works well for ECs, not least because I think they would prefer to leave the scouts' role to veterans who had 'perfected' that style of warfare.

[Macerio]

Night Lords: Probably the most terrifying indoctrination ever. I'm unfortunately having trouble putting my idea into words, but I think they'd inflict upon themselves what they inflict upon others. Both to give the recruits a personal experience with fear to gain a deeper understanding of it, and to deaden themselves to it, even more so than what would be normal for a Marine (which is already quite high what with the whole "know no fear" thing), all to prepare them for when they utilize the same tactics against the enemy. I'd rather think that a Night Lord recruit would be in for a very rough time, and many would crack just under the mental pressure of it.

 

I'm picturing "Batman Begins" Batman-training combined with some of the more horrible elements from "Saw," "Cube," or "insert-psychological-horrorfest-film-here."

[Culebras]

@Agpo

 

Thats a good point regarding Ultramarines.

 

@ Cormac

I think My thoughts regarding the world eaters went something like this. The World Eaters value martial combat and honor but they value emotional control more. With the norm 'verse Space Wolves, they value individual valor and bravery, not necessarily skill at arms or honor. The space wolves are ok with sending in their blood claws because the theory is that only the bravest, smartest, canniest, etc will come back alive and everyone else will perish. call it cold, call it heartless, but there is a logic there.

 

The World Eater's, on the other hand, don't strike me as being that way. They appear more clinical, precise. The fluff piece about the World Eater tasting blood and then throwing up, the quote about them doing something because its the right thing to do, avoiding unnecessary blood shed and civilian casualties; these all strike me as speaking to the character of the Legion. I think that in my mind, The world eaters are more like Worf from star trek. Worf is incredibly honorable but very controlled, very disciplined, especially when compared to other klingons. Now i have to ask myself, what would worf do? would he send in a group of green soldiers into battle if they weren't ready? or would he see that as a potential waste and drill them ferociously until they meet his exacting. I sort of want to say the latter. That was my thinking with regard to the World Eaters. Now that said, they would not be afraid of going all in. even Worf got to cut loose and knock some head every once in a while.

 

@ Macerio

I like where you are going with that. The batman element definitely makes sense, and the psychological horror element would really fit their character. All marines may Know no Fear, but only the Night Lords truly go into an exploration of what fear means. Personally, i was thinking of something similar to the Yellow Lantern corps Initiation rituals from the the Green Lanter Comics by DC comics. (Yellow lantern Corps are an inter-galactic organization of superpowered terrorists, mass murders, fiends, killers, psycopaths, etc. their power comes from fear) Basically, they lock you in a small prison and force you to face your own fears. If you overcome them, you survive, if you don't, you die. I though it was an interesting idea because each initiation is tailored made for the person taking it.

 

 

As for the EC, I'm glad people liked the Black Templar concept. The way I see it, with the EC being such a small legion, there is more pressure on each marine to succeed and excel. Nothing but the best for Fulgrim's legion. Also, i was thinking that there would be intense pressure on new recruits to strive for perfection. I imagine that there might be a tradition of veterans taking young initiates under their wings and tutoring them in the ways of the Legion by encouraging them to seek perfection in their studies. Afterall, if the EC are to remain as close to the perfect version that Fulgrim emphasized so long ago, then each new recruit has to share some of that burden. Besides, If I was a new recruit, raised in the underground cities of Chemos and then suddenly brought up to the well-lit and paradise-like surface, you can bet you ass I would do anything to show I deserved to stay there. I suspect, there might even be a matter of pride involved. if the apprentice does well, it reflects on the master, if the apprentice fails, the master bears some of the fault

 

I also think Cormac hit the idea out of the park on his interpretation.