The History and Legacy of Dorn's Betrayal

[Conn Eremon]

That Yellow Lantern example is spot on with what I was thinking. Every horror that can be visited upon them is visited upon them, and they must sink or swim. I'll probably refrain from discussing them further, though, if we're going to start comparing them to Batman. My opinion of the two being almost exact opposites of each other isn't a popular one and I don't want to this discussion to degenerate.

 

While yes, the World Eaters and Space Wolves have a very different demeanor about their recruits, the point I was trying to convey was that the Space Wolves approach is in many ways an attempt to temper a recruit's raw aggression by letting it run its course in bloody melee, until they can be introduced into a more disciplined unit. Basically starting off as savage close combat until your training, experience, and over-all maturation from a warrior to a soldier leads you into the more favored ranks of disciplined . . . ranks. Sorry, I'm tired, and my vocabulary is failing me. Anyway, I'm just trying to better express what my idea is, that of having their recruits go through much the same process as the Angron himself did, not argue for it. I think Culebras' idea is a very good one as well and I'm just offering an alternative.

 

However, AGPO makes a very good point. Without the Codex Astartes, referring to recruits as scouts, or consistently trying to make the two one and the same, might not be that accurate. Until I read his post, I'd been conceptualizing by taking the Tenth company Scout/Recruits model and tweaking it to fit the Legion. In light of his post, I'd advocate completely disregarding that recruitment model and theorize from scratch on how each Legion would go about training recruits.

 

I believe the ones we haven't discussed, besides Culebras' brief mention of them and excluding the two Aurelius has yet to reveal, are:

Alpha Legion

Iron Warriors

Thousand Sons

and the Word Bearers

 

My theory would be that the Thousand Sons and Word Bearers, unlike any of the other Legions, would have their recruits in a more noncombatant role. The Thousand Sons would be more about researching the higher mysteries and exploring and controlling their psychic potential, keeping them removed from combative roles until they've been sanctioned. The Word Bearers would similarly dedicate their recruits to the study of, albeit different, higher mysteries, and I think the religious aspects of the Grey Knights could easily be extended to the Word Bearers.

[Culebras]

That Yellow Lantern example is spot on with what I was thinking. Every horror that can be visited upon them is visited upon them, and they must sink or swim. I'll probably refrain from discussing them further, though, if we're going to start comparing them to Batman. My opinion of the two being almost exact opposites of each other isn't a popular one and I don't want to this discussion to degenerate.

 

While yes, the World Eaters and Space Wolves have a very different demeanor about their recruits, the point I was trying to convey was that the Space Wolves approach is in many ways an attempt to temper a recruit's raw aggression by letting it run its course in bloody melee, until they can be introduced into a more disciplined unit. Basically starting off as savage close combat until your training, experience, and over-all maturation from a warrior to a soldier leads you into the more favored ranks of disciplined . . . ranks. Sorry, I'm tired, and my vocabulary is failing me. Anyway, I'm just trying to better express what my idea is, that of having their recruits go through much the same process as the Angron himself did, not argue for it. I think Culebras' idea is a very good one as well and I'm just offering an alternative.

 

However, AGPO makes a very good point. Without the Codex Astartes, referring to recruits as scouts, or consistently trying to make the two one and the same, might not be that accurate. Until I read his post, I'd been conceptualizing by taking the Tenth company Scout/Recruits model and tweaking it to fit the Legion. In light of his post, I'd advocate completely disregarding that recruitment model and theorize from scratch on how each Legion would go about training recruits.

 

I believe the ones we haven't discussed, besides Culebras' brief mention of them and excluding the two Aurelius has yet to reveal, are:

Alpha Legion

Iron Warriors

Thousand Sons

and the Word Bearers

 

My theory would be that the Thousand Sons and Word Bearers, unlike any of the other Legions, would have their recruits in a more noncombatant role. The Thousand Sons would be more about researching the higher mysteries and exploring and controlling their psychic potential, keeping them removed from combative roles until they've been sanctioned. The Word Bearers would similarly dedicate their recruits to the study of, albeit different, higher mysteries, and I think the religious aspects of the Grey Knights could easily be extended to the Word Bearers.

 

 

No, I understand your point Cormac, and in light of AGPO's point, your interpretation is looking like it has more and more merit. It is possible that both approaches occur, depending one the proclivities of the specific grand company. I think it all depends on how one interprets the World Eater's relationship to their history. do they revere the path of angron and how he emerged from his anger and found honor or do they reject honor outright and seek to find a post-anger method.

 

As for Iron Warriors, about a year ago, i jotted down an alternate set of rules for an Iron Warriors army list and ran them by Aurelius. I posted them but never got any response so I don't know what happened to them, but I do remember that one of my ideas was that the Iron Warriors would not field their recruits as "scouts." they would instead have their newest members perform garrison duty and serve as the crews of vehicles and armory pieces until they would be allowed to "make their bones" by working their way up to joining a devastator squad as a spotter, and then later, a tactical squad where they can try and earn some glory for themselves by fighting in the thick of battle, breaching walls, spearheading assaults, etc. The idea was that an Iron Warrior's journey would go through stages. Stage one is the garrison and crew phase, where the Iron Warrior begins to develop and his ambition starts to drive through. then comes the battle stage, where an Iron Warrior goes into the heaviest fighting in order to "prove himself" and claim his piece of glory. Then finally, as an iron warror starts to age and his implants fail, he pulls back, as he enters the experienced stage, becoming a veteran and maybe trying to claw his way into a command position.

[AGPO]

I've had a lengthy think about this, and come to the following conclusions:

General Recruitment:
The size of the legions, and the fact their strength is scattered over the galaxy, would make centralised recruitment very difficult. With the exception of smaller legions like the Emperor's Children, recruiting from one world is unlikely given how many recruits would be neede to keep up numbers.

Thousand Sons and Word Bearers:
Due to their nature, these two legions' recruits are likely to spend a long time in training away from the battlefield. In the case of the Thousand Sons, these recruits will need to be taught to master their psychic talents, undergo the soul-binding ritual and conclude their scholarly and military training before they are able to take part in the legion's campaigns. This is especially true given the importance of psychic powers to the legion's tactics. With the Word Bearers, I imagine them taking many of their recruits from the best of the scholar progenium. These guys are already raised to be soldiers and religious fanatics, so they suit the Word Bearers down to the ground. Recruits would spend a great deal of time in prayer, learning the theology of the Imperial Creed and waiting on the brother marines. Even more so than other marines, I see them as a monastic order. Due to these factors, by the time recruits of either legion take to the field, they have almost certainly recieved their black carapace and are capableof using power armour.

Alpha Legion:
Given the secrecy of the legion, it is likely that individual cells conduct their own reruitment and training. Veterans of the legion's covert operations are able to teach the recruit the skills of self-reliance, sabotage, asymetric warfare and assassination in addition to more conventional battlefield tactics. First hand experience is highly valuable, and given that much of the legion's operations do not require the use of power armour new Alpha Legion recruits probably fight much like the Wolf Scouts of the norm'verse Space Wolves. Only when they have mastered the darker arts of warfare do recruits don power armour and join their brothers.

Night Lords:
I reckon Cormac aced this one. Nothing more to add.

Black Templars, Death Guard, Iron Warriors:
Each great company, chapter or whatever these legions call their units is likely to be in charge of its own recruitment. As legion structures are still in place, more specialised formations would still exist, such as armoured companies, larger fleets complete with air support arms and artillery units. Iron Warriors grand companies are likely to be shaped by their commander, and as such their recruitment practices probably vary tremendously. The Black Templars and Death Guard I see as functioning in a similar manner to modern militaries. A recruit joins a great company in the same way a regular soldier joins up to a regiment. Starting out in a general role, he will have the oportunity to rotate to various specialisms within the company through his career. Some recruits showing aptitude in given areas may be assigned to a more specialised formation within the great company, whilst others might be assigned to the fleet, the armoury or the apothecarium. Each formation would have its own chain of command, with recruits learning their trade and eventually getting promoted through the ranks of their company, or else joining a veteran formation such as a company of terminators or land raiders.

World Eaters:
Bearing in mind the higher value they place on human life, I imagine a World Eater's first taste of battle would be in close assault. Whilst long range warfare is fairly detached from the enemy, the World Eaters believe that a marine must know the true effect of the force they bring to bear, so that he may know when to use it. Human life belongs to the Emperor and it is not for them to waste it unnecessarily. Only when he has learned to temper himself in war can a marine be trusted with the legion's heavier firepower.

Emperor's Children:
Given the exacting standards of the legion, it is a given that they take extra care over the training and placement of new brothers. After he has recieved his imlants and completed basic training, each recruit is apprenticed to a battle brother to act as his apprentice. Unlike the Norm'verse Black Templars however, it is not just any marine who is allowed to take on a noviate. Only when he has completed centuries of service, served in every area of the legion's operations and been given the approval of his Captain is a brother considered ready to pass on what he has learned. In this way only the best of the legion shape its future, preserving its strength. Such is the sacred nature of this responsibility that no rank is exempt. Captains, even Lord Commanders are expected to take on noviates. These senior officers are given first choice when selecting an apprentice, and to be chosen by a hero of the legion is seen as highly auspicious for the neophite's fledgling career. This is no coincidence, as the Lord Commanders long ago learned to spot those with an aptitude for command, and to place them appropriately. Once selected a noviate will serve as a mixture of bodyguard, servant and student. Once his master considers him ready he will present him to the Lord Commander, where he must undergo a final trial before joining a squad as a full battle brother.

 

[Conn Eremon]

It looks like we're seeing pretty much eye to eye, AGPO. Your description on the World Eaters, Emperor's Children, Thousand Sons, and Word Bearers is very similar to what was in my mind, but with a much better delivery.

 

I say we should leave the Alpha Legion as you've put it, because it seems well in keeping of their mystique. Each Cell recruits on their own, and the over-all method of training is generic spy, scout, infiltration, but the specifics is mostly in the dark.

 

While I have a tendency to want to add as much individual flair as possible for each Legion, I rather think your view on the Black Templars, Death Guard, and Iron Warriors is pretty much dead on. That being said, I don't think it conflicts much with Culebras' idea of starting the rawest recruits as garrison duty. It could operate much the same as normverse Tenth Company, in that the garrisons are manned by recruits and led by veteran officers. These officers drill them and train them as they go through their modifications and indoctrinations, until they can be sent off to join the Legion as a whole as a battle-brother. That is, of course, for the Iron Warriors. As the Death Guard or Black Templars are still waiting in the wings.

[Snickers]

I certainly hope the article gets done soon. My birthday happens to be May 1st (just got my copy of Void Stalker thanks A D-B ^_^) and was hoping it would be done in time.

[AGPO]

I think the garrison duty idea works perfectly, kind of like reserve battalions in historic regiments in that losses are made up from reserve units, who keep a steady influx of troops coming into the regulars. An in universe example would be losses in the battle companies of a chapter being made up from the reserve companies, which are in turn made up from new initiates leaving the tenth company.

 

That said I can also see the Iron Warriors using different garrisons in different ways. Units stationed around key worlds would probably be made up of experienced marines and sound officers who could be relied upon to hold such key locations. Likewise small, out of the way garrisons on unimportant planets would most likely be given either to mediocre officers unlikely to rise higher, or else the CO's rivals. It would be similar to an 18th-19th century British officer recieving a posting to garrison duty in Australia - it may seem like a promotion, but really it's a career dead end with little chance of glory or advancement. Most likely the garrisons used for the training of recruits are fairly stable, central worlds which warrant a marine garrison due to their importance rather than their need. Officers here are likely to be well placed in the hierarchy of the legion, good administrators as well as commanders and able to deal with the politics of the Imperium whilst ensuring the legion remains well supplied and up to strength. Many of them may well be veterans no longer fit for active duty. Other recruiting garrisons may be over death worlds where the local population make especially good Space Marines. Their commanders may well be good field officers who lack the political aptitude for higher promotion.

 

I could write for hours on this but I have a dissertation to get done! :lol:

[Raven Angel]

Emperor's Children:

Given the exacting standards of the legion, it is a given that they take extra care over the training and placement of new brothers. After he has recieved his imlants and completed basic training, each recruit is apprenticed to a battle brother to act as his apprentice. Unlike the Norm'verse Black Templars however, it is not just any marine who is allowed to take on a noviate. Only when he has completed centuries of service, served in every area of the legion's operations and been given the approval of his Captain is a brother considered ready to pass on what he has learned. In this way only the best of the legion shape its future, preserving its strength. Such is the sacred nature of this responsibility that no rank is exempt. Captains, even Lord Commanders are expected to take on noviates. These senior officers are given first choice when selecting an apprentice, and to be chosen by a hero of the legion is seen as highly suspicious for the neophite's fledgling career. This is no coincidence, as the Lord Commanders long ago learned to spot those with an aptitude for command, and to place them appropriately. Once selected a noviate will serve as a mixture of bodyguard, servant and student. Once his master considers him ready he will present him to the Lord Commander, where he must undergo a final trial before joining a squad as a full battle brother.

 

Has almost a Jedi feel to it. I like :)

[Macerio]

I could write for hours on this but I have a dissertation to get done!

 

That just shows a lack of dedication to the game. I have law school exams starting tomorrow I should really be studying for, and I'm still on here...

[nuclearship]

guys, you did a great job...thank you very much for so much stuff to read and be lost in an alternate timeline of events...finally the Thousand Sons got the acknowledgment for what they did :)

[Coryphaus 101]

Soooo.... Two days left of April... How are the Sals coming along?

[lee265]

Well the way this works middle may is my guess

[Coryphaus 101]

Well the way this works middle may is my guess

That is what you would expect... Although, this might be one of those times when Aurelius' deadline is right (or at least his second deadline.

[Aurelius Rex]

Aaargh! Ok... short version, writer's block sucks, and it seems so do I at meeting these deadlines. :D

 

In penance for this, and to try out something that I have been toying with for a while, how about this? Serialisation!

 

From tomorrow, if people are interested, I will create a thread in the Liber Astartes section of the board for IA: Salamanders, and every day or so I will put up the sections I have drafted up. Anyone interested will be able to see the article as it evolves and give feedback on it before it finally gets published here in this thread. Each new section I add will get its own post, hopefully with some explanatory info on where it fits and hints of foreshadowing to look for, and will also be collated in the overall article in the first post.

 

Hey - serialisation was good enough for Charles Dickens... although there is where the comparison's end. :D

 

So would anyone be interested to see it come out this way, or would you all prefer to get it in a single article... some time in the future? :)

 

Aurelius.

[Snickers]

I would prefer the serialisation, that way it gives the other board members a chance to contribute :)

[Aqui]

I would prefer the serialisation, that way it gives the other board members a chance to contribute :D

 

Whilst I'm more than happy to wait, I can see the benefit of doing this. I'd be more than happy to chip in and proof read, comment etc if this helps :)

[Conn Eremon]

Honestly, mixed feelings. Part of me knows that seeing it piece by piece will only make my desire to see the finished product grow, more so than if I just waited. The rest of me is telling that part to shut the hell up, piece by piece is better than nothing until that finished product.

[Coryphaus 101]

Serialisation sounds good. Hopefully it'll mean less time after the Sals to the PDF since you won't have to proofread the Sals article :).

[Epistolary Exander]

Aaargh! Ok... short version, writer's block sucks, and it seems so do I at meeting these deadlines. :(

 

In penance for this, and to try out something that I have been toying with for a while, how about this? Serialisation!

 

I wouldnt say you suck at something which is naturally hard to do, to produce a high quality piece of fiction ;).

 

If the serialisation works for the Salamanders would you use it on your work for the remaining IAs in the series?

[Aurelius Rex]

Thanks for the support and understanding. :( It's much appreciated.

 

Seems like there is interest in this experiment, so I have started the thread over in Liber Astartes here.

 

Head over if you like and see what you think. Not much there yet, but I am aiming to add more of the developing story every day or so.

 

Regards,

Aurelius.

[The End Times]

I just wanted to ask, when the next pdf comes will it include the Badab War stuff that some of you guys were working on? and have you though of a combined pdf of both, perhaps with extra features such as content that may have been deleted from the articles, extra colourboxes such as the Aurelian tank, and maybe bits on other Imperial forces, or how the changed Heresy affects everyone else, like Orcs, Tau, and Eldar.

 

I may be asking a lot, but I have some ideas of my own and would love to help if I'm wanted.

[Coryphaus 101]

The Badab War's on hold until all sections of the DH are filled in. It was more a fill in while Aurelius was away to keep the discussion going. I do plan on continuing when the final PDF comes out (with Aurelius' permission hopefully) in a separate thread.

[Olis]

Just thought I'd take a moment to applaud you, Aurelius Rex. This is alot of work and the effort involved is, well, inspiring. Considering the other alternate Heresy is still pretty much in it's infancy, I'm finding it motivational to look through your work, see the format and the stories and pick up pointers here and there on certain aspects. Kudos to you, sir. :lol:

[LPetersson]

Awesome work so far.

 

Any news on when more will be released?

[Aurelius Rex]

Hi everyone, sorry for just dropping off the world without notice. A number of personal problems have kept me off the board for the last two months, but I think things have calmed down now to the point where I can get this going again. Speak to you all soon.

 

Aurelius.

[Phoros]

Woo!