moranimal Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 Hey everyone, The situation arose yesterday in a game of SMs versus Chaos where a Titan was shooting over both friendly and enemy units at an enemy unit it could clearly see, i.e. no obstruction to LOS. A short debate concluded that since the height advantage of the Titan gave it a clear LOS to the enemy unit and that the intervening friendly / enemy units in no way obscured any portion of the targeted enemy unit, no cover save was granted since it was firing over and not through the intervening units. Is this correct? Thanks ahead of time. Note that I did a search and did not see this topic / situation listed. Edit: Corrected spelling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 If from the vantage point of the shooter, less than half of the model is obscured then no cover save is aplicable, the exception being when the unit is in terrain not hiding behind another unit. *Edit* strictly speaking the 50% visible rule is for vehicles, but the group I play at finds it useful for determining if a unit gets a cover save from an elevated shooter. I suppose by RAW the unit is between the shooter and the target so they would get a cover save... but some things are just broken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 Nope. So long as the target unit is in the clear for LOS, it doesn't matter how many units are between the firer and them. No cover save for those suckers! The obvious exception is if you are looking at an enemy model with clear LOS through units. Then cover is granted. If you have height and are not shooting through anything, no cover. To think otherwise is to think abstract, where LOS is actual now. Especially from a titan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bran Scalphunter Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 Effectively, a Titan is cover, except this cover has a big red "Shoot Me!" sign and a bulls-eye for the enemy army to shoot at. So if the Titan can blast you and you don't get cover, when you shoot back it doesn't get cover (saying you actually have a terrain piece big enough to give him cover). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 well the titan is a vehicle and vehciles have different cover rules than infantry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maniclurker Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 So if the Titan can blast you and you don't get cover, when you shoot back it doesn't get cover (saying you actually have a terrain piece big enough to give him cover). Actually, it is quite possible for a warhound to shoot at you and not give you cover, while it gets cover if you shoot at him. You draw line of site for vehicles down the length of the barrel of the weapon, and the weapons on a warhound are mounted on the side. If you had a ruin or building big enough but slim enough, the titan could shoot both of it's weapons without providing cover, while it's main body is mostly blocked by the building. A tower in my store not only perfectly obscures a warhound while allowing it to fire both of it's weapon clear. Entertainingly enough, it would do so for a reaver too, as the dorsal weapon would be able to see over the tower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelmage99 Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Indeed, Manic. The same applies to non-vehicle models. http://www.pbase.com/crusader40k/image/99925784.jpg http://www.pbase.com/crusader40k/image/99925785.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawks Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 nicely done! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 of course getting a cover save from shooting through another unit doesn't require you to block LOS, it just requires you to shoot through another unit.... in which case the marine will get a 4+ cover save from the grot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelmage99 Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Not if you shoot over the unit. Rulebook, page 22, Third bulletpoint under Exceptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mordekiem Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Hey everyone, The situation arose yesterday in a game of SMs versus Chaos where a Titan was shooting over both friendly and enemy units at an enemy unit it could clearly see, i.e. no obstruction to LOS. A short debate concluded that since the height advantage of the Titan gave it a clear LOS to the enemy unit and that the intervening friendly / enemy units in no way obscured any portion of the targeted enemy unit, no cover save was granted since it was firing over and not through the intervening units. Is this correct? Thanks ahead of time. Note that I did a search and did not see this topic / situation listed. Edit: Corrected spelling. You were correct. thre should be no cover save from the Titan in that circumstance. If from the vantage point of the shooter, less than half of the model is obscured then no cover save is aplicable, the exception being when the unit is in terrain not hiding behind another unit. *Edit* strictly speaking the 50% visible rule is for vehicles, but the group I play at finds it useful for determining if a unit gets a cover save from an elevated shooter Fine for house rules, but this is not official rules. If any part of a model is obscured it gets a cover save. That means it's foot can be behind a rock and it gets cover. The idea is is that a real warrior would duck behind that rock or hit the ground. Not stand up in the open waving his arms over his head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelmage99 Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 And yelling. Don't forget the yelling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Not if you shoot over the unit. Rulebook, page 22, Third bulletpoint under Exceptions. Yes but in teh ork-grot example, only the head and shoulders stand over the grot so you'll be shooting through the unit since you don't count a head shot as shooting over a unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelmage99 Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Line of sight is drawn from the eyes of the firing model. In order for the Marine to be able to claim a coversave from the Grot, the Grot must obscure part of the Marine when viewed from the Ork. As this isn't the case, the Marine cannot claim a coversave. The last part of your post makes no sense at all. I don't understand your headshot reference. Here's a few more; http://www.pbase.com/crusader40k/image/99925784.jpg No save for the Marine. http://www.pbase.com/crusader40k/image/99925787.jpg Marine gets a save. http://www.pbase.com/crusader40k/image/100211797.jpg The distances can change a great deal. http://www.pbase.com/crusader40k/image/100250262.jpg Just in case some people find that the Marine is too big. ENTER THE TINY MARINE! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Yes Los is drawn from the head, but the cover save from shooting though units doesn't require LOS to be blocked as the models in the unit are considered to be moving around not standing stationary. All you need to do is to be shooting through another unit to claim the cover save. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelmage99 Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 But he isn't shooting through! I have edited to include illus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelmage99 Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 How about this one? Get it yet? http://www.pbase.com/crusader40k/image/107348336.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelmage99 Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 How about this? http://www.pbase.com/crusader40k/image/107348592.jpg The Ork is clearly shooting over the Grot. The only difference between this and my original illustration is a matter of degrees of shooting over. After that you are only left with his discussion. Here at Dakka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelmage99 Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Really sorry about the fragmented posting. It clearly is a sign of my fragmented mind. It won't happen again. I just did it again, didn't I? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DemetriiTZ Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Shooting 'over' intervening models without the advantage of standing on elevated ground = cover save. Doesn't matter if you're shooting 'over' the model because you're taller. You're still shooting 'through' it, because the shot isn't being fired from the Ork's head. Orks do not have laser eyes. I'm sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelmage99 Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Shooting 'over' intervening models without the advantage of standing on elevated ground = cover save. Doesn't matter if you're shooting 'over' the model because you're taller. You're still shooting 'through' it, because the shot isn't being fired from the Ork's head. Orks do not have laser eyes. I'm sorry. A rules reference would be nice. I can't seem to find any such condition on Page 22 of the Rulebook. It just states that shooting over a unit does not confer a coversave to the targeted unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 If that were the case then everyone would have their models on scenic bases to elevate them, and terminators would be able to shoot over marines denying cover saves... sorry but thats not true... granted yet the rule was poorly worded, but the only way to shoot over something is to be on an elevated platform. Remember Los is only used to determine if you can shoot someone, the shots do not come from the models head. If there is any form of obstructions (please note gaps in a unit DO count as an obstructions, even if the whole of the model can be seen) then there is a cover save, the only exceptions is when in contact with a barrier, within 2" of the edge of terrain and shooting out or shooting through your own unit. Please see rules on P.22 BBB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeattleDV8 Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 BRB pg. 21 "when any part of the target model's body (as defined on pg.16) is obscured from the point of view of the frier," pg 22 "fires though the gaps.....between models in a intervining unt," "Note that this does not apply if the shots go over... the unit" The rule is very clear and not poorly worded at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawks Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 a: most people don't fire guns like Rambo, they raise them to their eyes / yes, the head moves down a few degrees. even so, LOS from the shoulder still passes the ork/gretchin mustard. b: LOS is used for determining what model can be hit AND what model is IN COVER (outside of area and the like) c: units don't have height classifications, the model is what it is. this is one of the reasons that scenic bases need to be OK'ed by your opponent. d: gaps in units through which a target can be seen still denote a cover save - this is gaps, as between models. e: there are very few units in the game that include mostly all models short enough to be seen over by common friendly models. off the top of my head: 'nid gaunts, gretchin, crouching fire warriors (and here you might have an argument for a save as they might grant one if they were standing), and swarms (rippers, scarabs, nurglings...). maybe a few others. so - true LOS, from the firer's head, over a unit and not between models that you couldn't see over (so don't bracket grots with slavers) does not grant cover to the target. similarly - when shooting through a unit on a platform or other open, multi-level terrain piece, the "gaps" could be seen to be vertical, as well. beware the lawyer with no save. Steelmage99's drawings did such a nice job of illustrating much of this... it's not hard to get. with the exception of on-table gaps (coherency) and terrain rules, cover is true LOS - if the unit between you doesn't cut a toe out of view, (target weapons and banners, etc... don't count) then no cover save. otherwise, yeah, 4+ all day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maniclurker Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 Agreed, though I don't think this situation would be encountered too often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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