Space Wolves/Marines overpowered?

[saphius]

So my win streak with wolves has hit almost 30, never losing in 5th edition either. - I don't mean to sound all powerful or anything, just been lucky and doing well.

 

I don't know why but I've seem to hit my stride with my Wolves... I don't take 'Broken lists' ever in my mind. I always field something competative, but almost never more than 1 LR (if I Field one), I don't field big Wolf Guard ass cannon units, ect...

 

I still seem to always be pulling out wins against who I'm playing ( the streak includes 2 local tournies) but mostly againt 2 of my friends who play, nyds, eldar, orcs, wychhunters, IG, and Daemonhunters. And an occasional Blood angel. (We have a lot of armies.)

 

It all came to a head last night when i beat him in a KP game very badly and he started complaining that the game is made for marines, and that he can't do anything to win ect. ect. ect... I felt bad, but didn't know what to do? We've been playing eachother for over 10 years and and There was a time when I had a hard time wining a game (3rd ed againt his nyds) but never felt like he did. Granted he doesn't take all powerful lists, usually running and Inquisition list (Wytchhunter with IG) because he likes the character, and usually wins against everyone else.

 

So with all this being said, are wolves/marines broken? Is the game tailored so I'll win? - I never thought so. And if you agree with me, how do I encourage my friend to not make the game bad not only for him, but me as well. I want him to win, but I refuse to throw a game... I just want us both to have fun. Advice?

[Wulfen00]

Sadly many people see us as overpowered. I have a simular problem where I am, my streak stretches far greater then 30 games though and at this point is beyond my care of counting. But after emotions are put aside we usualy discuss what happened. Lucky rolls on my part and far greater tactic usual sum up the events. Regardless who you are, if you keep a cool head and sound though you are going to do well. In fact I have been a SW since 3rd, using the army through all editions and changing it slightly for each. I haven't lost in over a year and a half with a few draws to throw the streak off but never in 5th.

 

For the argument against us, we do have an archaic codex, that adds many things for the entire army that now are rarely seen in mass (counter charge) add to the fact war gear made for 3rd, like the pelt and runic charms. But never forget we are an archaic list, but we have stuck through it, SW armies now compared to third are hugely different. Never before was Ragnar as menacing a force in my list as he is now.

 

To put it bluntly our list does need a revamp as we all know. But on the same note our troops are made to be a major part of our list, giving us an edge in fifth. I know we can be beat, I have beaten and help friends beat the other SW player in my area (council only of coarse) to help show where we are week and where the tide can still be won. (The other SW doesn't mind as it just add to a challenge) I myself welcome my opponent to council other people on tactics and hopes to destroy me, only making me better for coming out on top.

 

Wulfen00

[Grey Mage]

*snorts* No.... were not overpowered. I will note however that many inquisition lists have a hard time against marines.... they really are geared more towards killing hordes. Against an IG player or an Ork player hed do alot better. The main reasons they dont do as well is thus: They have a volume of high AP shots with low strength. Marines have better toughness and armor... wich means they do less wounds and we make more saves.

 

With a true IG list this is countered by the fact that they have many many more guns and bodies than we do, however in an inquisitor list they have increased the power of the men and troops and thus the points without changing their focus. Thus, he gets fewer shots that are better at taking out hordes.. but no better at taking out marines.

 

Its especially rough for sister squads. After all theyre 13 points a peice as opposed to a gaurdsmens 6, and what do you get? 3+ armor.... whoopy. The key to winning with them has always been maximizing faith points and if hes taking IG he probly isnt doing that. If he wants to mix in match it should probly be the other way around... IG with some sisters. Of course, youve said he does well against most of his opponents so maybe that wont. Something for him to bear in mind though is that SOB are a close range army.... and SW are a CC army. Theres a significant difference there. If he doesnt wipe you out in that final turn before impact hes quite frankly screwed... and fluff and rules wise he should be. Thus the solution that would seem to present itself is more dakka.... but now Im repeating myself.

 

To put it shortly.... its not marine lists, its SOB lists. With Eldar, Orcs, Nids, Chaos, Necrons, and Tau marines are not overpowering or all powerful. If you listen to many in the Liber forums theyll tell you they have but three worthwhile units, and all of them expensive. I wouldnt say that, but it does give one something to chew on.

 

One last thing though... now that I think about it... he does realise that IG always, and I mean always, get screwed by kill points right?

[WolfLordLars]

*gasp!* AC WG units are broken!?!? Heresy!!! ;)

 

The long and short of it is that 40k is a story about the Space Marines. Opinions may vary, but they are generally the most 'powerful' most versatile army in the game. Few armies can match them overall, but many can overwhelm them in specific areas.

 

Combine that with the fact that you play the most (currently) powerful Space Marine chapter at the moment (IMHO), and there are bound to be some problems. But, I know a great many space wolf players who could not win their way out of a wet paper bag... so it depends on the player.

 

To me, the "oh, such and such list is broken" is the cry of a sore-looser. I used to be just like that, first with Tau, then Necrons, later (and until very recently) with Eldar. The truth is, I just didnt know how to play them, so when I lost it MUST of been that army, etc etc etc. Maybe sore-looser is not the right term, but rather than complaining, they need to adjust what they are doing. Of course, some armies will always be at a disadvantage (IG with kill points, as GM said). People really need to know that going in.

 

As far as I can tell, the most 'powerful' army currently in the game is still the Necrons, but thats because they are marines that might not die. In the hands of a good player, its damn hard to beat that army. But, in the hands of a good player, its difficult to beat ANY army. I never lost with my Necrons when I played them, but at the same time I didnt have too much trouble beating others who played them once I figured out how.

 

Maybe you might sit down with your friend and try to figure out how to better play his list? Or, and I always have been a fan of this.. the next time you two sit down to play, trade lists. Let him play yours, you play his, and see what happens. ANY time someone cries cheese or broken with my wolves, I offer to trade them for a game. Of the dozen times I have offered, maybe 3-4 have taken me up on it, and I won with their army every time.

 

My $.02

[Brother SRM]

If you look at my win/loss ratio, I think it's pretty evident that Wolves aren't drastically overpowered. We've got some cheddar in our lists, but overall nothing gamebreaking.

I lose all the time, but it's not because I'm a poor player or list builder. That's just how it goes for me.

 

However, Necrons versus my Wolves are a joke. I take the maxed out Termie squad from hell and they can't touch me.

[Battle-Brother Wags]

Well, all I know is that in the last two days I've played 1500 point mechanized vs eldar and have gotten spanked both times. And I honestly don't think I did anything "wrong" tactically or in my list building. A landraider full of BCs and a WL, a vindicator, two rhinos full of plasma-death squads, and a drop podding ironclad. Some people may not agree on the landraider in a 1500 point list, but even so, its a pretty solid list, but I could not gain any ground against the available firepower in the eldar list I was facing. Two brightlance/EML wraithlords and a squadron of 3 scatter walkers, which all in all, for what they can do, is not very expensive at all, put together, with a security force of a coupla units of DAs, a large unit of guardians with a scatter laser, large unit of warp spiders, and full unit of scorpions with an avatar to link them all together . . . the long range stuff blew up my vehicles and the masses of shorter to mid range firepower blew the survivors of the wrecks apart. Space Wolves' greater weakness is lack of ranged firepower. If we can't find a way to whittle the enemy down a little bit while en route to the enemy itself, we won't GET to the enemy, because the full force of the enemy is going to be simply sitting their firing away . . .

 

Honestly, I think that most of the times one army seems more out of balance than others simply based on who is playing that army or against that army. There is one guy in my gaming group that I am positively thrilled when I beat him, which isn't often. And it doesn't matter what list he is playing or what list I am playing, he is just extremely good at knowing how his army works together and knowing what is the best course of action in any given situation. I have a hard time getting ahead of him, just like there is another guy in our gaming group that I have to tone my own strategy down just so we can have a nice competitive game. Again, doesn't matter what list I'm using or what list he's using. Some players are just better than others. I don't mean that as an end-all be-all type of statement, but more often than not, that is what it is. Or perhaps the key to unlocking the demise of a particularly tricky enemy has just not fallen into a player's grasp yet. If anyone can tell me how to beat that eldar guy with Space Wolves, for instance, please let me know! :-)

[Aeric]

I have also had the same problem. My last opponent cried cheese after i outshot his Iron warriors army.

You have to remember there are a lot of bad generals out there. This guy was using havocs straight out of the box (who still uses an autocannon) and spent 4 turns firing at my wolfguard with only one ap2 weapon. He also tried to take out my long fangs with a vindicator (yes i use long fangs). Of course it died before it got anywhere near them.

 

That being said, the codex is archaic and can be abused. Tooling up greyhunter and wolfguard squads wont work against a decent general. This eats up point need for more bodies/manoeuvrability etc. Against lesser general it can guarantee you a win because they don't use bodies/manoeuvrability to their advantage.

 

I'll give you an example. I had a dark eldar army that went on a 17 game winning streak. I totally annihilated all my opponents (except one necron player, v.tough!!!!). Players added heavy bolters etc when they played me but NONE of them changed their tactics.

 

During deployment they lined up their troops across the board instead of doing the one thing i feared, a compact refused flank. I'd just sit there with disbelief, slowly picking their army apart in my head. I would use my raiders to pick them of piece by piece. I faced one clever compact impy fist army and was luck to escape with a draw.

 

Its easier to cry cheese than to think up new tactics. I know i've done it myself (%$$~## wraithlords!!). If i honest, i'm usually surrprised when my wolves win. My opponent knows i'll be trying to get into combat, he knows i'll be transport/droppod heavy and knows h'll outnumber me before he's even seen my army list.

We wolves aren't as flexible as other marines. This is why we rank so poorly in tournaments.

 

I find whether i win or lose comes down to my opponents skill (and mine). Where i game there are people i ALWAYS beat. And a few general that give me always give me a run for my money.

[Grey Mage]

Yeah.... anyone remember the fourth ed screasm of OMG!1!1!one!!!!! WRAITHLORDS!

 

And all anyone really needed to do was throw down some snipers and it was done.... and then add in that they were useful against other MCs, some horde units, and some SCs *like the nightbringer*.... or you could just ignore the thing and take out the units that actually had enough volume of shots to kill it.

 

I remember the first time a tyranid player in my area found out the Wraithlord had only three attacks. "WHAT?!" And I said "Yeah.... thats never changed" Hed always focused all his firepower on the thing and in return Id killed all his units that were shooting it.... with other units. From then on he always did his best to run a medium sized gaunt unit at it to tie the old boy up.

 

Rhino Rush was the same way.... deploy back a bit, pop the silly rhinos and then take your time picking apart the enemy footsloggers. Keep a decent CC unit or two in reserve to counter attack... and your good. Because a tac marine was still a tac marine... with one attack and at best one person in the squad who ignored armor. First turn charge against striking scorpions? Ok.....

 

With the OP's particular case though it really just seems to be the problem of a bad matchup. The Witchhunters codex is also a bit old and is simply not designed to have sister squads taking out marine squads without concentrated use of faith points. Throwing in inducted IG *instead of using the stormtroopers* further reduces their effectiveness against marine armies and increases the number of KP's you can get for killing Xpts. Any good general will be sure to use this to his advantage.... and the weakness is large enough that it really will cost a player the game.

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

to the op. have you tried a different list then the one your running? maybe something extremely different

[saphius]

Yea... I did the Ironclad droppod - Felt bad for that but figured all his stormtroopers should make it interesting?

 

Tried a full Scout squad list with one OBEL the rest in Speeders flanking - The scouts ran through everything. (I Always run them to do well in HtH)

 

I've done Heavy droppoding GH lists....

 

I've done heavy Razorback lists... - GHs in razorbacks, no Rhinos because I hate them. (Wierd I know, but I don't own one.)

 

Always came out on top of any of the lists I played.... In The razorback list against mech eldar (about 2500 Pts) Including two Pheonix Lords I only lost 1 GH unit of 6 and a Vindicator and Wiped my other friend out...

 

They are both just very discouraged, and I have traded lists in a sense ( I used the Eldar, but he stuck with Orks) and still ended up with a draw on my first game. - When I went to make the Eldar list being my first time diving into the codex I couldn't help but think that his was so much more flexible and had so many more options than me - Pathfinders as troops (2+ Cover saves and Rending on 5+6 to hit and 6 to wound?!), DA as troops, Jetbike troops, ect, ect. And the same with the Ork codex: Knobs as troops, Dreads as troops, ect. These lists seem that they have much more potential to be effective, and cost less points for the most part. I think some of it has to do with the change over to fifth, which I guess I have transistioned faster...

 

I do feel that my Wolves did go through the Wytchhunters too easily, and when I pointed out to him that the one thing that went well for him was when 20 sisters used a FP, combined with a Calidus to take out 10 GH and a Rune priest in one turn, but I still overwhelmed him.

 

Oh and always seems to get upset that my OBEL scouts, or any for that matter, get Dual charges on his Squads and a tank and screams cheese... Is it just me or don't sit there waiting to get charged?... I think I will ask him to list swap, me taking the Wytchhuners him with my Wolves for a game, becuase really I don't want to play a diff army all the time, which they want me to do.. I've loved my Wolves since 2nd ed and they never complained when I couldn't win one.

 

Thanks for all the responses though, I'll keep having a positive attitude when I play and teaching my friends how to exploit my weaknesses because I really wouldn't mind losing if, or when rather, they beat me.

[Spacefrisian]

It could be that cc is the main problem here.

 

It might sound strange but any cc i have gotten in (regardless of them being Wolves, Orks, Berzerkers) resulted in a overwelming win.

 

Ig are not noted for high S/T and Ld.

[Max_Dammit]

You can always take a fun list, one that wont win battles but is fun to play, a lot of bikes and a LRE

 

Or just, just lose a game :)

[1000 Yard Stair]

Since these are friends. Why not try messing around with the missions you play. Create some of your own. Maybe you could tailor them to somewhat handicap yourself. It sounds like a case of where you are just a bit better tactically minded than your friends. If you usually play the same army all the time, tell them to tailor their lists to kill marines and your army in particular. This will give you a challenge and give them a little advantage. Maybe go so far as to point out in their codexes what units and configurations would give your army a hard time.

 

Since these are friends thats a tough deal as you don't want anyones feelings hurt. Good luck. Maybe you could drink more (this is thematically wolfy and serves as a handicap in itself, if you're not a drinker (heresy!) ignore this last bit)

[Ullr Direfang]

are space wolves broken... i say no. they get full benefit from C:SM. i have seen people (and i a one of these people) who have done well at winning against space wolves and space marines. i have noticed in the area that many people get what they "want" in an army, so there are a lot of IG players with tons advisers and ogryns and stormtroopers, and snipers, and then they use doctrines (other armies do the same type of thing, just there are more IG players here right now). so they tend to lose when they use all their "really cool stuff". i understand that it is about the army you want, but it only took me around two months to realize that my "really cool stuff" wasn't going to win against the better players. people need to be able to change up their lists. to your friend i would suggest running JUST IG or JUST witch hunters. i have seen i guy in my home town run down any marine army with his witch hunter army.

 

now is warhammer 40k made for space marines? yes and no. as space marines being the big GW money maker, the space marines will be made to look and seem the best for anything the company can make up. i feel that they would be fine with just selling space marine stuff (though i know i would get really tired of playing space marines every time.). but right now space marines are the only list made for 5th ed.. i know orks and chaos are slightly geared for 5th, but they still needed to work (seem normal) in 4th so they aren't 100% up to 5th ed steam. in time the space marines will be getting less "powerful" due to new codexs being release, and having new skills and equipment. but for now, it will be the marines that remain the big army and for those of use who do use other armies, we will just have to expect to play against mostly marines.

 

edit: horrid morning spelling...

[Thylacine]

Well, all I know is that in the last two days I've played 1500 point mechanized vs eldar and have gotten spanked both times. And I honestly don't think I did anything "wrong" tactically or in my list building.

 

That's more like a realistic SW battle report, it is becoming harder and harder to win games, in 5th ed with Space Wolves. Marine squads may cost a little more but they have the Combat Squads and Combat Tactics special rules, plus a free Flamer and Missile Launcher. Thats 0 points to reach our and kill your armour! The price of SM's may have gone up but the free weapons covers that. Never before has the dreaded 'Codex Creep' put the SW codex so far behind the others.

 

To match a SM lists long range firepower, we have to take our now expensive Predator A's, GW or more correctly 'AC' seems to have forgotten SW's are an expensive unit that rely on VEHICLES for ranged firepower.

 

Cheesy and over powered? Well that is the opinion of many none SW players down under, take two power fists or power weapons in a pack, add two plasma pistols to that and your looking for a 0 (zero) composition score at tournaments.

 

Has anyone thought of using six scouts, one with the Missile Launcher and the other five with Sniper rifles and camo-cloaks? The Sniper rifle is not as good as it was, but they are free for the scouts pack armed from the SM list and our scouts have BS 4, the camo-cloak costs 3 points but gives a 1+ to a cover save. At seventeen points per scout they seem an ok at the moment!

 

Template weapons are better under 5th ed rules, have you thought of taking more of them Wags? Dreads with LC's and PC's, Vindicators, Whirlwinds (bugger lost the mines) and a flamer in every pack! That could be the standard SW list of 5 th ed!

 

BTW, how does our Leman Russ Exterminator compare points wise to those of the IG? Like the Rhino and Razorback Extra Armour for the LRE is still 5 points and we pay for the smoke launchers and spotlight, but the Heavy Bolter sponsons are cheaper than those on the Predator and compared to a tooled up Predator A there is just a few points difference between the two.

[the jeske]

well it depends how and what you play against with SW. chaos, orks vs SW normal games [maybe even with SW being the weaker ones ] . sm khan lists more or less the same . but if someone is trying to play with plain old joe SM or BT against a SW list and on top of it the SW takes whats best right now the BC spam list , then they may seem broken as hell . But sunday gamers dont see thet fact that while you steam roll his sm gunline list [that he should play anyway in the 5th or dont at least stop complaining about losing all the time] , you may have problems with the lash builds or the orks .

 

But it was always like that [with the small exeption of the 4ed sm dex with traits] . SM are a starting army and while they are forgiving for new players or people that dont know how to armybuild/meta game , when they face a real army they just cave in a lose big time . Does that mean that SW are the cheez [personally I havent seen a cheezy list since the time of Army of Dead and the Siege company]? Hell no . But they are way better then codex sm .

[Wolf89]

Wolves are just VERY easy to balance, we've got enough firepower, close combat, and in between to go against any list. If you play smart, you can win against any opponent, sure dice gods play a roll, but it's easy to throw a rhino with a tooled out GH squad to an objective and be confident that they'll get the job done.

 

Note that if you want a challenge, start playing smaller games, 1000 and below really hurts the wolves needed 2 HQ's (above 750 of course), especially fighting orks. The 1501-2250 is one of the most comfortable areas for the wolves, we have lots of options but no matter what we take, we know they'll be good against almost every list if not all of them.

 

Overpowered? No. Very able in the right hands? Yes.

[Vassakov]

Here's the thing - as has been pointed out, Wolves are a very competent, solid list. When a good build is combined with a good player and the Dice Gods are average or better, that list is going to be very hard to beat. But that's due to the synergy that exists between a good player and their list - some lists are easily abused, but I don't think I've seen 2 identical Wolves lists, but we all seem to do quite well. Yes, we can make powerful lists, but we have nothing on the Lash Princess/Oblit or Monolists - just to name two.

 

And don't get me started on 3 Russes in 1000pts.

[Ullr Direfang]

And don't get me started on 3 Russes in 1000pts.

 

ohh good god.... how many times have i done that to people.... to many. 1000 point team tournies, are my favorite time to... i will have to admit that i don't do it so much any more 'cause of the troops score thing, but i do like it.

 

then i also should mention i have faced it too. lets just say trying to hide from 3 pie plates, lascannons, heavy bolters, and some where around 70 lasguns is so easy.

[WolfLordLars]

The suggestion to take a poor list and loose to keep them quiet is a temporary fix. The next time you win, they will be right back at it.

 

Honestly, the only advice I can give you based on your response is to either find a more mature bunch of gamers (an oxymoron sometimes) or tell your friends to grow up (actually, I would phrase it "quit whining and learn how to win noob" with a smile).

 

Cheese is in their mind. If your scouts kill them, DONT LEAVE YOUR STUFF IN THE BACK FIELD. If your taking them out with Drop Pods, USE THE TERRAIN AND PLACEMENT. There is a fix for everything, but they seem to prefer to complain to actually try and beat you.

 

Also, dont be tempted to remove the things they complain about. I ran without Scouts for awhile because people swore they were all cheese. Trying to be a nice guy, I didnt bring them. Then, when they won a game, they swore it was due to the lack of Scouts. Naturally, the next tournament, my scouts were back, and the cries of cheese begin anew.

 

 

In the end, there is really nothing at all you can do to fix this. It isnt a problem on your end. The only suggestion I could offer is to make a balanced and competitive "tournament list" and use it against everyone, rather than tooling lists for specific opponents. It will make you a better player, having to refine your list to deal with alot of different situations, and it will (should) shut them up. If they cant beat an 'all-comers' list while they are tooling their list against you, its on them.

 

 

Sorry you have to deal with that. Dont give in though. By letting them win or taking a bad list your not helping them, your really hurting them. You dont get better by being given victory. You get better by taking it on your own. :)

[dietrich]

There are some very powerful combos and models that you can build out of the SW codex right now.

 

A lot of it depends on what your opponent fields and their tactics. Space Wolves will generally outperform CSM or SM at short range and assault since SW can get more special weapons (ranged and melee). If your opponent is moving to get into melee range as quickly as possible, he shouldn't be surprised that you're beating up on him. On the other hand, there are some builds that SW will struggle against due to the generally limited long-range firepower - any mechanized list can be challening.

[Grey Mage]

Im sorry, but if My friends got upset that I was winning to much, and then had the same problem when I played an entirely different army that I was borrowing..... I think Id find some more players.

 

Its rude, its petty, and its dumb. They need to improve their tactics. Have they asked you for advice? Have they gone over their battles with you and confered with each other? With you? to see if theres things they could improve? Have they tried rebuilding their lists? Have they ever considered a number of objective based missions or perhaps different point values? Have they ever considered that they should just read the 5th ed rulebook through, their codex, and then yours and then theres again? It gives amazing insight when you know what your actually up against each time?

 

And if they havent.... why are they complaining.

 

Either remember that its just a game, or do whatever you can to make sure you win if you cant get over that facet. Anything else is just incompetence.

 

/rant.

 

I am the highest ranked player at my LGS. I still lose on occaision... about 1/5. I dont throw tantrums. I invite people to bring special characters, or if they have the book and will talk it over with me even forgeworld stuff. I have a simple model: If it has stats, you can kill it. I have never known an army to be tabled without tactical errors on the half who lost. I have seen noobs win games with sheer luck and medicore players have days of tactical brilliance. But this is a game and those kind of things happen.... and no matter how good you are youll make mistakes on occaision and if theyre on their game theyll be in a position to try and exploit it, dice gods willing. I hope they read this and think for a moment: Like they say in sports- Shut Up And Play. Im sorry if this comes off as harsh, and Im very sorry for you that you have friends who are acting like this. I hope things goe better for all of you.

[Ranek Icewalker]

well....its like any army (well if u ask me) is that any army can be unstoppable

[dietrich]

And you could always offer to play a mirror match. Line up with Wolves, beat them, then switch armies, and use theirs to beat your SW army.

[Grey Mage]

Yeah... that would either make this situation alot better or a whole hell of alot worse.