Space Wolves/Marines overpowered?

[saphius]

I think I've tried everything suggested except them playing with my Wolves...

 

I think If I do that and show them how bad you can beat them, which I think I really would -knowing my own weaknesses is what has always made me good, rather than knowing my opponent- then everything should be smoothed over. My friends really are good guys, I think they just don't like to think that it's their end that has a problem, rather than mine.

 

Thanks for all the suggestions.

[WG Vrox]

It's not that the wolves are overpowered, it's your bodies nids that are a bit broken atm. I have a friend who has nids and he has tried all types of lists and the only one that has a chance against marines is the Nidzilla type lists. Even then if you get your HQ loaded with SS into CC it can hold it's own against monsterious creatures.

 

That's the reason why you see or hear of the same Nid list over and over in tournaments and events, is because it's the only competetive list they have or maybe a slight variation at that.

 

The nid friend now runs a chaos army as he got tired of only winning with the one list.

 

Post us one of his Nid lists and maybe we can help him or have him go online and take a look at a tourney list to see if he can tweak it a bit.

 

Just some thoughts for ya

 

WG Vrox

[WolfLordLars]

I think I've tried everything suggested except them playing with my Wolves...

 

I think If I do that and show them how bad you can beat them, which I think I really would -knowing my own weaknesses is what has always made me good, rather than knowing my opponent- then everything should be smoothed over. My friends really are good guys, I think they just don't like to think that it's their end that has a problem, rather than mine.

 

Thanks for all the suggestions.

 

Of course they dont. But, if thats how they want to act, maybe some new friends are in order? :drool: At least new gaming friends? I had to learn that one the hard way.. I have my reenactment friends, my gaming buddies, my drinking friends, etc... and I am careful not to mix them too much.

 

Anyway, play with their army, stop yours, show them its possible, and go on. If they are not willing to ask you for help or to explain why you win, there isnt much hope for them.

 

You can lead a horse to water....

[Warprat]

Another solution might be to give the loser of the last game their choice of going 1st or 2nd in the next battle, and/or thier choice of edge. Maybe the loser could choose the senario, and/or the terrain placement. Or make it a mini-campain with reinforcements for the losing side. If you lose, you gain the same benefits...

 

Or maybe try randomizing your army by making up point blocks of various options, and letting your opponent roll for what you get. Try using some non-optimised units. Or even letting him choose...

 

 

 

It's good to have friends, I would try to keep them happy!

 

Warprat ;)

[WolfLordLars]

So, if your friends whine and complain due to a lack of ability on their part, you should dumb yourself down to keep them happy? Thats nonsense.

 

Like I said, those guys need to grow up. Nerfing your list to suit the fact that they cant figure out how to play (are they even asking you for advice or help?) is doing them a disservice.

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

true however sometimes humility can help

[WolfLordLars]

true however sometimes humility can help

 

I fail to see how humility has anything to do with anything here.

 

He isnt going on about how awesome he is (are you?). His 'friends' are complaining that he wins all of the time, and rather than address the issue (which sounds like their lists and play ability) they cry cheese. The solution is not to dumb down your list. Then they are beating an inferior list and will be very disappointed should he decide to quit doing that (say, in a tournament). To me, thats a bit dishonest. If you play dumbed down and then go into a competition with those same people, but bring your A-game instead, your going to blast them. Seems a bit underhanded.

 

The point is, the suggestion to let them win or make a poor list (to let them win) doesnt fix the problem, which is their inability to beat a Space Wolf list. The old proverb applies... "Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish, he eats for the rest of his life"

 

Well, if you let them beat a SW list, they win for a day. If you teach them to learn how to beat a SW list, they could end up winning for the rest of their lives (and not just against SW).

 

 

Be strong, ignore the nay-sayers, and bring your best. They either adapt or they die.

[Grey Mage]

Be strong, ignore the nay-sayers, and bring your best. They either adapt or they die.

 

QFT.

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

however though if he gets that one win in he MAY get the moral and better mood to play and roll better.

 

(it seems that mood and psyche do influence dice roll. when your in a good mood you roll better and when in a bad well ones and twos pop up.)

 

im not saying its the best solution it just might give him that pep to get a better start on the next game then going on damn wolves why even bother

[WolfLordLars]

Its an old arguement, and while I see your point, I think its a temporary fix, if any fix at all.

 

Its better to have someone to play against than no one, but I think sitting down with these guys and explaning how to gear their list to deal with the wolves would work wonders. Trading lists would do well also I believe.

 

But, I do not agree with the notion that a single win will somehow encourage them to play better. Wait, forget that. A single win WILL encourage them to play better... but an actual, EARNED win. Teach them how to get that win, and make them work for it.

 

I know to some people a win is a win.. but I know I would rather have one that I fought for than one I was given...

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

and i completly agree with you on that regard. i think some new missions are definetly in order. the same 9 are getting lame when done in abundance. as someone else has said maybe yall should try a made up mission in his favor?

[the jeske]

another words disrespect him and his/your team by playing an unbalanced game. whats the sense in that ? I mean if he brings a SW anti list and you bring an all comers list and both terrain and scenario list is riged for him to win [aka make it easy for him] . there is no sense in playing . you just do the first 2/3 turns in the head with a couple of variations and its just as good . + you dont have to pay for the table.

[DGC]

I have read this post with interest.

 

Although I wouldn't consider myself as an experienced player I have been having some serious success vs DA and variable success vs Tyranids. I would consider myself as still learning, most of my games have been over the last year and that still only amounts to 12 or so with only 2 games in 5th edition but I have found that varing the scenarious or playing campaign style games can have a very different outcome to some others. Self imposed restrictions have helped me learn more of how my army works. Things like having a game with no 'Heavy Support' options or no 'Elites' choices really make you have to learn how to adapt.

 

I have had a few cries of cheese though. These normally come when you use a unit with skills your opponant doesn't have and you destroy his favorite model/choice. I have done the same, 6 wound Brood Lord etc but I see it as part of learning the game.

 

If your friends are having trouble beating you then try something similar, it could help you as well

 

Catcha - DGC

[LPetersson]

I think I've tried everything suggested except them playing with my Wolves...

 

A friend of mine plays Necrons, and so far he has been unable to defeat me. Ever.

 

So we're gonna swap. I'll borrow his Necrons or Tyranids and he'll borrow my wolves...

 

I hope it'll give him a better appreciation of how we work so he can defeat me every now and again...

[Battle-Brother Wags]

Now I don't know the specifics of the OPs situation, but one thing I've noticed in my own gaming group is that there are certain people who really do enjoy playing but have any number of other factors:

 

- sometimes people have legitimate reasons that make them unable to spend much time outside the actual playing of the game to strategize, build lists, or learn opponent's list. I have heard people say that these people should "make time" to do this, but come on, we need to realize that this is a game and should not be top priority on any adult's mind.

 

- perhaps a person truly has a hard time understanding tactical situations and how things fit together, how to break down an army like a machine piece by piece. They put stuff together that seems like it should work, but they're thinking real-world tactics instead of 40k tactics. Not everything is so intuitive in the 40k gaming world.

 

- some people have a hard time with the numbers and orders of everything. While this is not as common as other reasons, sometimes people suffer from mild dyslexia and that can really hamper things. I've seen this more than once unexpectedly in non-40k related games; it caused alot of frustration until it was found out.

 

I'm sure there are many other "fair" and "legitimate" reasons why a perosn might consistently lose, and any of them can lead to frustration when a person truly does enjoy the playing of the game. And they might even know their weakness of not having the down-time needed to learn rules or whatever, but they just can't do much about it. And half the time, people like this are so busy in real life that the rules the do learn while actually playing get driven from their minds by all the things that happen in between games.

 

None of these are to justify the whining of people, and certainly not to say that anyone should baby them or dumb themselves down, but if one of these or another reason fits, it might help the person who is always winning to ask themselves why they are playing the person. If its because they enjoy competition, then they need to "weaken" or "handicap" their list so that the game can be competitive. And so on and so forth. But if the loser wants to be competitive in a true sense, then he needs to learn the rules, tactics, and so forth. I'm just saying alot depends on where both the loser and the winner are coming from.

[WolfLordLars]

I think I've tried everything suggested except them playing with my Wolves...

 

A friend of mine plays Necrons, and so far he has been unable to defeat me. Ever.

 

So we're gonna swap. I'll borrow his Necrons or Tyranids and he'll borrow my wolves...

 

I hope it'll give him a better appreciation of how we work so he can defeat me every now and again...

 

If you need help to gear up those Necrons for a win, let me know. Showing him that his army can be used well usually works wonders.

[the jeske]

While this is not as common as other reasons, sometimes people suffer from mild dyslexia and that can really hamper things

i have a strong one and its a lame excuse for playing bad , It takes me longer to write stuff and thats it . dyslexia doesnt make you stupid .

[Battle-Brother Wags]

While this is not as common as other reasons, sometimes people suffer from mild dyslexia and that can really hamper things

i have a strong one and its a lame excuse for playing bad , It takes me longer to write stuff and thats it . dyslexia doesnt make you stupid .

 

I didn't mean to imply that it makes you stupid. I have a good friend that has severe dyslexia and she is probably overall more intelligent than I am. What I meant is that in a game with as many rules and numbers as 40k, dyslexia or other learning disabilities can be a major hindrance. And I think we can all agree the best way to learn the rules is to read them numerous times on your own. Learning disabilities can make this very difficult, and put that on top of the busy lives many of us have, well, there you go. Sometimes something far more common such as ADHD, which I'm finding more and more people, even adults, seem to complain of, can cause just as many problems in this area as well.

 

All I'm trying to get at is that we need to examine our opponents, at least our regular opponents, to know what kind of experience we can expect. If they are just whiners or are lazy, those who would rather say that you're doing something unfair just because you know the game and can play tactically as opposed to their own efforts, then I say forget them. But if a person enjoys the game but is frustrated with their own lack of ability, then those are the type of people that can be worked with. And finally, because we're all human and have the tendancy to take the path of least resistance, those in the latter group can often be tempted to act toward the winning opponent as if they were in the former.

[Bjorn the Fell-Handed]

There is a clear difference between overpowered and balanced. Overpowered in 3 Russes in 1K, the Vindi back in the early days of 5th with PoMS, the Nidzilla Lists, the Wraithlord/Avatar armies, BT LRC spam, Lash lists etc. Those lists can win in the hands of a total idiot. Wolves on the other hand need to be used properly, by someone who has an idea of tactics and strategy, but if you charge them at everything you see, they will get dragged down. If we were overpowered, our Long Fangs would be able to have 20 guys in a squad, with the ability to take 10 heavy weapons and to split fire between several squads :annoyed:

 

Just because we have better CCW units, and some special tricks, Vanilla marines in particular whinge "cheese" , solely because they want it both ways; good fire support, great scouts and hard CC units. Its a mark of how balanced our list is that we are still competitive in the latest list, and despite all the modern "gubbins" given to everyone else, we can still give them a thrashing. ;)

 

So be proud my Wolf Brothers, and disregard the cries of "Beard" and "cheese". Play those Wolf Scouts and use the Runic Charms, and say " Well, if you want, play wolves yourself, and stop whinging just because your army can'y do anything right"

 

Besides, whats wrong with playing an army that is strong?

 

Bjorn

[Vassakov]

The thing is, the Wolves have no "super build." We have a long and hard learning curve which once mastered will see us through thick and thin.

 

We rely on technique, strategy, pack builds (ie units that give mutual support) and a little bit of luck. Used well, we are unstoppable. But no battle is ever the same, and many are hard fought tales of glory.

[barek]

Well, I don't know about you guys, but I'm really sick of the FAQ's which leave the important questions open to debate. Young cheap Blood Claws who fight like elites? I don't know .... I stopped painting mine untill a new clear codex comes out. And I surely won't use them untill that time comes.

[Battle-Brother Wags]

The thing is, the Wolves have no "super build." We have a long and hard learning curve which once mastered will see us through thick and thin.

 

We rely on technique, strategy, pack builds (ie units that give mutual support) and a little bit of luck. Used well, we are unstoppable. But no battle is ever the same, and many are hard fought tales of glory.

 

To be absolutely honest, I really think that SWs in general are alot closer to Eldar than to codex astartes marines. We really have to blend our lists and strategies together alot more than the vanilla marines do. And therein lies the learning curse, I mean, curve.

[Mal]

Well first thing I ask my Wolfy borthers.... dont shoot.... or bite...

Yes I am a Dark Angel...

 

I have found myself in a similar position to the OP on a number of occasions, I even stopped going to one group because they geared the club campaign specifically against me (heh I still won).

 

Its not that I have a cheesy army build... lets face it, the only even remotely cheesy thing in my army is a single LRC, other than that its a solid core of 3 tac squads, a few rhinos, company master and command squad supported by a 5 man sniper team. I use this army regardless of who im playing, even if their build is designed to beat me. I have even written lists for people that have been designed to exploit the weakness in my list... and yet I still win...

 

Does this make marines cheesy? Well considering I play marines more than anything else... I would have to say NO it doesn't. I even consistantly beat 5th ed C:SM armies.

 

I have had to endure cries of cheese... I have even been called an unethical gamer, and one person even went so far as to declare that the only way I have ever neat him is by cheating... And its really not nice to have to face this kind of abuse, thats what it is at the end of the day, people loose, get frustrated and take it out at the percieved source.

 

Unfortunately there is no solution to this... they need to understand why they lost, even if its pure dumb luck, accept it and get over it... now I don't know about you, but this is not something I found many people willing to do. Even if they say they are.

 

Ultimately its a shame, a good enjoyable match can be easily runied just because someone let their emotions get the better of them.

[saphius]

Yea I've still been getting bashed for having an 'Overpowered' Army over and over. And told I take Cheesy builds, but, I did have one enjoyable game with a friend that has been crying cheese... The way I solved it was Letting him take 500pts more than me, stick his orcs in pods, and let him charge with a Whaagh out of the pods. - He took Ghazgul which gave him TWO turns of 6inch Whaags. (Ghazgul is insanely good) two 10 man Knob Squads with FNP and one with 2+ armor, and his entire army had 5+ invul saves. (Special char) I think he ran four special characters.

 

He said he really enjoyed the game - But I ended up winning 14kp to 8. Both of us had fun, tough challenge though.

[Grey Mage]

Thats horrible.