Forced modified leadership and Black templars

[Emphyrion]

Good guys: Black Templar footslogging army (2500 points, 6 crusader squads with 10 space marines with 10 neophytes each, 1 squad with chaplain, Marshall in Landraider crusader on table.

 

Bad guys: 2 monoliths, one on each flank, several large squads of necron warriors, some assorted floaty thingies, Necron Lord in center in a standard phalanx setup.

 

After 2 turns of normal punishment, 3 of my 6 squads are now with in charging range (regardless of dismal righteous zeal rolls). pariah squad teleports in

(any unit within 12" of unit count as having leadership 7) Necron Lord moves up with nightmare shroud ( force leadership test at LD 7). After a little debate, we decided that rites of battle ( all other black templar units use marshal's leader ship for all leadership tests) did not boost the marines ld back up from 7.

 

My question is, is this correct? or should I have used the commanders LD 10, as he was outside the area of effect.

 

I can't call a rule monkey at gw (we used to call 3 times and take the average answer). The FAQ's don't mention this situation, or have anything remotely close to this, that i could find. Tried searching the forums.

 

I almost lost this game, as 2 of 3 squads in range got up and ran, 'escorted' by scarabs, while my squad with chaplain was being shred by fire. On a positive note, even though i had nothing but powerfists to kill his monolith, a scatter from his own pie plate caused him to destroy his second monolith with his first......

[Souchan]

Well as I would read it, it says any unit with a model near them has a Leadership of 7. So instead of theirs or the sergeants they are stuck with LD7. Now whenever making morale, pinning or leadership tests they can use the marshals leadership instead. I see no real conflict there. Had it said, "the unit always tests on LD7" I could have seen conflict. Had the commander indeed been in the effect it would have been different.

 

What I find more puzzling is the notion of Pariahs teleporting in. They aren't "Necrons" and have no method of doing so in a typical 40K game. VoD and Monolith gate can't transport them.

[Mal]

Your right about the wording there Souchan, the squads Ld drops to 7, but for tests they still use Ld 10 from the marshal, unless hes in range then the entire army tests on Ld 7 as his Ld drops...

 

What gets confusing is with sisters of battle and the book of lucous (or how ever its spelt) as this make all friendly units in range unmodified LD of the holder (9 for vet sister superior, or 10 for cannoness), I would still go with the book as its unmodified LD, but there are 2 different effects changing the Ld value.... can be confusing since there is no presedence from GW.

[Souchan]

Actually the book of St.Lucius uses the "may use the bearer's leadership for the tests", once again not even touching the models own leadership. It gets troublesome with Orks though, as they say they substitute their leadership and this is what gets modified.

 

I just wish GW would be a bit more thorough in seeing how new tricks they come up with meddle with pre-existing rules. Bless them though, they have been trying hard with 5th B)

[Steelmage99]

Pariahs lower LD to 7, Marshall raises it to 9, Pariahs lower LD to 7, Marshall raises it to 9, Pariahs lower LD to 7, Marshall raises it to 9......

 

A regular Irresistable Force versus Immovable Object. Dice for it.

[SeattleDV8]

At least with the Orks , if they have 10 or more, Even if their Ld is reduced to 7 they are still fearless.

With the wording of the Necrons codex even though the BT's Lds is 10 it is Counted As 7. the necrons rule would be the winner.

[Hexx]

Agreed, the Necron's rule is fairly straight forward.

"All units with a model within xx of the Pariah's counts as having Leadership 7"

[Mal]

Actually the book of St.Lucius uses the "may use the bearer's leadership for the tests", once again not even touching the models own leadership. It gets troublesome with Orks though, as they say they substitute their leadership and this is what gets modified.

 

I just wish GW would be a bit more thorough in seeing how new tricks they come up with meddle with pre-existing rules. Bless them though, they have been trying hard with 5th <_<

 

P.20 C:WH It states quite clearly that its unmodified leadership.

[Captain Malachi]

Agreed, the Necron's rule is fairly straight forward.

"All units with a model within xx of the Pariah's counts as having Leadership 7"

Yep, and then you can use the marshals leadership 10 for the test, you're not modifying the models leadership to 10, you're using a different models stat, which hasn't been modified.

[Souchan]

Pariahs lower LD to 7, Marshall raises it to 9, Pariahs lower LD to 7, Marshall raises it to 9, Pariahs lower LD to 7, Marshall raises it to 9......

 

A regular Irresistable Force versus Immovable Object. Dice for it.

 

The Marshal doesn't raise anything. His leadership may be used in stead of their own on certain tests. It doesn't say they replace their leadership with his, in which case I would agree it would need dicing or say they both cancel each other out.

[Culsandar]

"Oh crap, what the hell is that?"

"I dunno, but it looks big and scary!"

"Maybe we should run away?"

*Comm Click*

"What in the wide wide world of sports is goin' on down there?"

"I dunno sir, but it looks big and scary."

"Big and scary? Your mother looks big and scary, man up son!"

 

I would think unless the Marshall is within the listed range of the Ld reducing item, they test at the Marshall's own leadership. That is the exact purpose of the RoB rule, for instances like this. They defer to the superior battle experience of their commander and follow his order without question (unless you roll an eleven or twelve).

[Souchan]

Personally, I would have gone with,

 

"Big and scary? Your an 8foot killing machine with a rapid firing rocket launcher for a rifle. Those things were toast the minute you got up for breakfast this morning!"

 

Then again, I do love me my ultimate xmen^^

[Steelmage99]

Well, most of the answers here are pretty much what can be expected on an All-Power Armour forum.

[Hexx]

Now that I think about it I can admit the POV that they can may be correct (by RAW), I think this is another example of where RAW conflicts with RAI.

You're pretty safe (of course) to play it this way with you friends, but I've never heard of any tournaments even considering ruling this way.

 

I know the old marine dex with the same power (and I assume the same wording) had the Pariah rule supercede the Rites of Battle, but again, as long as your in "friendly" games you have a case.

[Souchan]

Well, most of the answers here are pretty much what can be expected on an All-Power Armour forum.

 

Yeah I suppose it has nothing to do with the way the rules are worded huh.

 

None of us tried at all to explain what we think based on what they say.

[maniclurker]

Well, most of the answers here are pretty much what can be expected on an All-Power Armour forum.

If you have a problem with it, there is always the 'X' on the top right corner of your screen...

 

It's pretty clear to me how this works, irrespective of any bias torwards PA (I have IG, SoB, and SM)...

 

Rites of Battle allows you to use the commanders leadership. It's stated pretty clearly that way. As such, if the commander is outside of the pariah's special ability range, his leadership is 9 or 10, whichever version you have. When it's time to take tests, then you may use his, which is 10.

 

I know people who have used this to pull off tricks in the old dex. They'd keep a Culexus assassin near their commander, and use his Ld of 9 modified to 6 (I believe) to really help stay out of charge range. There were a few more tricks, too, but I can't remember those.

[Captain Malachi]

Well, most of the answers here are pretty much what can be expected on an All-Power Armour forum.

No offence, but there isn't an argument here.

 

Soulless makes squad have LD7.

Rites of battle lets squad use captains (or marshal in this case) leadership.

Captain/marshal has LD9/10.

Squad tests on LD9/10.

 

Rites of battle doesn't change the squads leadership, it lets them use another models leadership, simple as that, no argument.

[Steelmage99]

Yes, in the end I must stand corrected. I appologize for any slight implied in my post. I was influenced by the arguments heard in the "Drop Pods" and "LOS" discussions.

 

This is a different matter. It seems that Rites of Battle win out in the end.

I am still not entirely comfortable with the argument "They use the Captains Leadership in place of their own" as I feel that "in place of" is the same as "replaced by". And a value replaced would still be affected by Soulless.

 

Anyway, keep in mind that I am the Dark Angel player that would make use of this and I am afraid that my usual circle of opponents (10+) most likely will balk at this. Oh well, life goes on. :devil:

[Trekari]

Make sure to read pg. 36 carefully. It doesn't say anything about "in place of."

 

Your opponents should have nothing to balk at after you point that out to them.

[Steelmage99]

Yeah, I just have a sinking feeling that they will say that the "in place of" is implied.

 

As in "Models can use his Leadership [in place of their own] for........"

[Mal]

Im sorry, are we now saying that you cannot use the marshals LD for tests?

 

I think you'll find you can, and if the Marshal is outside of the range for the Ld reduction, suprise suprise, the squad in range can use his base Ld as in their rules. In order to stop this, there needs to be a rule that says the unit must use its own modified leadership and may not use the leadership of another model/unit.

 

So while there is no in place of in the BT rules, there is no cannot use marshals Ld in the necrons rules either.

 

I can see where this issue has arisen from, but if you look at both carefully, the answer is easy.

 

Necrons rule reduces base leadership value of squad, squad tests on base leadership value of marshal. Since the marshal's Ld is not reduced, the squad doesn't take the test at a reduced leadership.

[Steelmage99]

And therein lies the problem, Mal.

 

You say that the Necron lowers Leadership to 7 and ROB allowes the squad to use the Captains/Marshalls Leadership.

 

Some might point out that the Soulless rule says "count as 7", meaning it can be of any value but will count as 7.

The Rites of Battle does not say "use Captains unmodified Leadership...", it just says "use Captains Leadership", which due to Soulless will count as 7. This is actually the only way that I can see that doesn't break any rules.

 

The squad is indeed using the Captains Leadership of 10, it just happens to count as 7 when the squad actually get to roll.

[Souchan]

Yeah, I just have a sinking feeling that they will say that the "in place of" is implied.

 

As in "Models can use his Leadership [in place of their own] for........"

 

Even if it said that it wouldn't be in conflict.

 

Simplified:

Squads LD is X

RoB says Squad makes checks with LD Y

Soulless: Squads leadership is Z

 

They never get in the way of each other unless the RoB model has his LD modified.

 

To paraphrase what you said

"Models can use his Leadership Y in place of their own LDX/Z"

 

Now if Pariahs said "All units within blabla inches use LDZ for all leadership/morale/pinning tests" then we would have seen some odd conflict that would need to be diced off.

 

By the way, has there been any word on how the Pariahs teleported yet?

[Mal]

And therein lies the problem, Mal.

 

You say that the Necron lowers Leadership to 7 and ROB allowes the squad to use the Captains/Marshalls Leadership.

 

Some might point out that the Soulless rule says "count as 7", meaning it can be of any value but will count as 7.

The Rites of Battle does not say "use Captains unmodified Leadership...", it just says "use Captains Leadership", which due to Soulless will count as 7. This is actually the only way that I can see that doesn't break any rules.

 

The squad is indeed using the Captains Leadership of 10, it just happens to count as 7 when the squad actually get to roll.

 

I do not think you actually understand what either rule does, I have prepared the following questions for you so that we can guage your understanding of the effects of the rules.

 

Question 1:

Squad A is in the area of effect of Soulless, the Marshal is not, which of the following is true:

 

1A: Squad A has its leadership lowered.

1B: Squad A and the marshal have their ledership lowered.

1C: Neither have their leadership lowered.

 

Question 2:

Squad A make a leadership test, which of the following is true:

 

2A: Squad A tests using the leadership value of the Marshal.

2B: Squad A has its leadership modified by the Marshal.

2C: Squad A must test using their own leadership.

 

Hopefully you answered the questions correctly, if you are having trouble then here are a few pointers.

 

Soulless lowers the leadership value of any unit in range of its effect.

 

Rites of Battle means friendly units may make leadership tests on the Marshals leadership value instead of their own.

[Steelmage99]

I will naturally answer, Mal, but I must ask for a favor first.

 

Could you please edit you post so it reflects the actual wording of the rules?

 

If you insist on saying that "Soulless lowers Leadership" you must also amend Rites of Battle to say "Rites of Battle raises Leadership (to X, with X being the Leadership of the Captain).

 

Soulless doesn't lower Leadership any more than Rites of Battle raises it.

 

The complete wording of Soulless is as follows:

 

Soulless:Any enemy unit with a model within 12" of a Pariah counts as having Leadership 7, unless it would normally be less than that.