Forced modified leadership and Black templars

[Captain Malachi]

Yes, the unit counts as having leadership 7, however, the marshal does not, he has leadership 10. Rites of battle lets you use the marshals leadership, which is 10. Ok, new theory, let's say marines have a unit that already has LD7 (I know they don't but roll with me here), would this unit not be able to use the marshals leadership? Afterall, it counts as having leadership 7. See? That's silly isn't it? But that's all that soulless does, it makes the unit act as if its unmodified leadership were 7, there is nothing in any rule anywhere preventing it from using the marshals leadership. (And for the record, I play necrons, so my opinion is not biased.)

[Mal]

Steelmage, enough is enough already. If you do not want to read what I am actually writing fine, but your looking for reasons to argue here. This is a discussion board not a place to vent, if you don't like me, thats your opinion. But enough of these arguing threads, they are counter-productive.

 

Now as to your post, firstly, you didn't answer my questions. Secondly, ok the wording of soulless means that the leadership is counted as 7 as opposed to lowered to 7. Both have exactly the same effect and treated in the exact same way, but if you insist on different wording, you can have different wording.

 

Let me explain this... and for the record, this is the last time I will, I do not like repeating myself, over and over again, it gets old, really fast.

 

Squad A in range to be effected by Soulless counts as having leadership 7, Squad A (now with leadership value of 7) tests on the Marshals leadership 10. Squad A takes leadership tests on a 10.

 

I hope this is clear enough for you to understand.

 

And for the record Steelmage, I am not getting at you in any way, I am merely trying to assist you, the OP and anyone else who doesn't completly understand this sequence. I hope we can avoid needless arguements in the future.

[Steelmage99]

Squad A in range to be effected by Soulless counts as having leadership 7, Squad A (now with leadership value of 7) tests on the Marshals leadership 10. Squad A takes leadership tests on a 10.

 

Squad A is effected by Rites of Battle, Squad A (who gets to use the Marshals 10), moves within range of Pariahs, Squad A (using Marshals 10) is effected by Soulless making whatever value they have or use, count as 7. Squad A takes leadership test on 7.

 

Unlike Book of Lucius, they don't get to use the Marshals unmodified Leadership.

 

 

But you are right. We don't really see eye-to-eye on this. :D You have stated your bit and I have stated mine. You are of course entitled to a parting shot. :lol:

[Mal]

Ok let me put it this way, heres what you stated for the rule:

Soulless:Any enemy unit with a model within 12" of a Pariah counts as having Leadership 7, unless it would normally be less than that.

 

So Squad A has its OWN leadership modified.

 

But they don't test on their own leadership do they.

 

Squad A counts as having leadership of 7, but they test on the Marshals leadership 10.

 

*Edit*

 

Squad A is effected by Rites of Battle, Squad A (who gets to use the Marshals 10), moves within range of Pariahs, Squad A (using Marshals 10) is effected by Soulless making whatever value they have or use, count as 7. Squad A takes leadership test on 7 should read 10.

The bit in bold is wrong. Nowhere in the Soulless rule does it say this. It says their Leadership counts as 7, unless it would otherwise be lower.

[Steelmage99]

And with that we end the discussion.

 

Happy New Year, Mal. B)

[maniclurker]

Steelmage99: If you are so uncomfortable using RAW, then use house rules that say that the Marshall's LD counts as 7. It's not RAW or RAI, but it will make your opponents (and you, apparently) happier. In the end, that is the objective of the game.

 

I do not have Rites of Battle anymore, as I have new dex, and don't use Sicarius. If I did have old dex, BT dex, DA dex, etc, etc, then I'd most certainly play by RAW and RAI, and say that the squad tests on the commander's LD of 10.

[SeattleDV8]

You are missing one point Mal. The unit tests for Ld. The commander does not. the unit uses the commanders Ld value. when in range of Pariah it is counted as 7. It has not been modified, it just counts as 7. Your agrument would work if the commander took the test for the unit, but he doesn't. The unit gets a different value for morale tests. Which is counted as 7 in range of the pariahs.

[Souchan]

You are missing one point Mal. The unit tests for Ld. The commander does not. the unit uses the commanders Ld value. when in range of Pariah it is counted as 7. It has not been modified, it just counts as 7. Your agrument would work if the commander took the test for the unit, but he doesn't. The unit gets a different value for morale tests. Which is counted as 7 in range of the pariahs.

 

I disagree here, Pariahs do not provide a different value for morale tests, wheres RoB does do exactly that. Pariahs change the base stat, RoB provides a value that can be used instead.

[Mal]

You are missing one point Mal. The unit tests for Ld. The commander does not. the unit uses the commanders Ld value. when in range of Pariah it is counted as 7. It has not been modified, it just counts as 7. Your agrument would work if the commander took the test for the unit, but he doesn't. The unit gets a different value for morale tests. Which is counted as 7 in range of the pariahs.

 

I disagree here, Pariahs do not provide a different value for morale tests, wheres RoB does do exactly that. Pariahs change the base stat, RoB provides a value that can be used instead.

 

Exactly...

 

I have tried to explain this as clearly as I can... but I guess some people just don't see it that way.

Yes the commander isn't taking the test, but the squad is testing on his leadership, NOT their own. Soulless means their own leadership counts as 7, nothing more.

 

Please note Soulless does NOT say all leadership tests the unit makes are on a 7 unless it would otherwise be lower.

It says the units leadership counts as 7 unless it would otherwise be lower.

 

Big difference between the two.

[SeattleDV8]

Not quite. RoB allows you to Use the commanders Ld instead of your own Ld value.

The Pariahs do not change that value but make it COUNT as 7 (unless lower)

[Souchan]

Not quite. RoB allows you to Use the commanders Ld instead of your own Ld value.

The Pariahs do not change that value but make it COUNT as 7 (unless lower)

 

Indeed it makes them count as that. Once again, they aren't using that leadership that counts as Z for the test, they are using Y.

 

To closely paraphrase my previous example on this X counts as Z. RoB allows them to use Y instead of X. This also allows them to use Y instead of Z.

[SeattleDV8]

You are mistaken. Rob allows them to use the unit own value or the Commanders value. That Choice determines your Ld value.

If in range of pariahs your Ld value remains the same ,BUT it counts as 7. Yes , the units Ld is now 10 , but does not matter for the test.

The Pariah does not change your Ld.

It just makes it moot.

[Praeger]

Seattle, I dont think you really get what the rule says.

 

Think about it like this:

 

Your units LD is X

 

Pariahs make X = max7

 

Unit LD is now max7

 

Unit can now either use X OR Y

 

Commanders LD = Y

 

Y is unmodified.

 

Unit now tests using LD = Y

 

Now, if the commander was within the Pariahs area of effect then all units all over the table would have the LD lowered to 7. Why? Becouse the Parahias drop the UNITS LD to 7. Not the LD they USE but the UNITS LD (very big and key difrence).

 

If the coamnders is now droped to 7, then all units USING the commanders LD now are at LD7

 

If the UNIT is within the range of the Paraihs then THEIR LD is dropped to 7. But the LD they USE has not been droped.

 

This one really is all to do with the wording, and yes if the rule was slightly difrent then you would be right, but as the rule is right now its the UNITS LD that gets dropped, NOT the LD they USE.

[Souchan]

You are mistaken. Rob allows them to use the unit own value or the Commanders value. That Choice determines your Ld value.

If in range of pariahs your Ld value remains the same ,BUT it counts as 7. Yes , the units Ld is now 10 , but does not matter for the test.

The Pariah does not change your Ld.

It just makes it moot.

 

Only that's not how we read the ability at all. Never do I make the claim of them having leadership 10, in fact, RoB never at any point makes their leadership 10. Their leadership under normal circumstances is 8 or 9(depending which marines and Sergeants) and it always remains this way. RoB just allows them to make the test with the Marshals value. Never once scratching or altering their regular value, in fact it's ignored entirely when using RoB.

 

Pariahs do change your leadership. The unit now counts as having LD7 as long as any model is near enough(one wonders how the neural shredder would work with this, as it says the unit though I'd say no, but another fun thing to ponder).

 

I find it funny you seem to read this exactly the other way around as I do.

[maniclurker]

Praegor... to the rescue.

 

Listen, people, there's no point in further discussion of this really. We have all said the same thing refuting that Pariahs effect the LD10 of the commander and tests, but these others do not want to listen. Constant repetition of the same thing is NOT helping.

[Steelmage99]

Okay, although I promised to stop, I will throw this out there anyway.

 

A Dark Angels Tactical Squad gets beaten in CC by 4. They are within 12" of a Pariah. They have a Dark Angels Captain standing more than 12" from a Pariah.

 

Which value do the Tactical Squad use when making their Break Test?

[SeattleDV8]

Codex Dark Angels, page 36 (Company Master):

 

"Rites of Battle: If a Company Master is on the table then all other Dark Angel units may use his Leadership (10)for Morale, Pinning and Leadership tests, but not Psychic tests."

 

Codex Necron, page 17 (Pariahs):

 

"Soulless: Any enemy with a model within 12" of a Pariah counts as having Leadership 7, unless it would normally be less than that."

 

Nowhere in the Pariah rule does it say that the Ld is reduced , Only that if it is greater than 7 it is treated as 7 .

The term "counts as" tells us that the actual number has no bearing.

 

 

The marines Ld with RoB is 10. no argument at all.

Sadly if my poor DA tac squad gets in range of Pariahs it will be treated as 7

Not because it was lowered, but because it "counts as "7.

 

It is not a modification of the Ld Value . If it was you would be correct.

[Captain Malachi]

Seattle, it says the leadership counts as 7, that means it's leadership is now 7, however, the unit is not using it's own leadership!! It tests on 10, like it or not that is what the rule says, please, go read the rule again. Oh, and chainging it to 7 is a modification of it's leadership value, if you can't see that please go look it up in a dictionary. (Sorry if that sounds harsh or anything but there isn't really an argument here, the rule is very clear.)

[Souchan]

Okay, although I promised to stop, I will throw this out there anyway.

 

A Dark Angels Tactical Squad gets beaten in CC by 4. They are within 12" of a Pariah. They have a Dark Angels Captain standing more than 12" from a Pariah.

 

Which value do the Tactical Squad use when making their Break Test?

 

In my opinion, 6.

[SeattleDV8]

In the 40K rules there are many places where the term "counts as" is used.

If one model moves in a unit the whole units "count as" moving, even though only one moved

vehicles pivoting do not "count as" moving even though they have.

Models with Relentless "count as" stationary for shooting

Twin linked weapons have 2 weapons that "count as" one with a re-roll

A vehicle Vulnerable to Blast/templates has every hit "Counts as" 2 hits.

This is a wording that is used to mean that even though a unit/model is in one state we treat it as if it is in another state.

Ilregardless of the units actual Ld if it is over 7 it "counts as" 7

The rule is clear ,it did not say you subtract or reduce the units value, It just treats it as if it was 7.

The SM unit in question is still Ld8, allowed to use RoB Ld10, but Counts As Ld7

[Mal]

Okay, although I promised to stop, I will throw this out there anyway.

 

A Dark Angels Tactical Squad gets beaten in CC by 4. They are within 12" of a Pariah. They have a Dark Angels Captain standing more than 12" from a Pariah.

 

Which value do the Tactical Squad use when making their Break Test?

 

In my opinion, 6.

 

This is correct because the combat modifier applies directly to the test not the units leadership.

This may seem like such a small picky difference, but it has a significant effect ingame.

 

There is one thing I have learnt from this thread, those who are not willing to listen to reason will not.

 

I believe this thread should now be closed. the OP has their answer and all we are doing is rehasing the same debate back and forth.

[Steelmage99]

This is correct because the combat modifier applies directly to the test not the units leadership.

This may seem like such a small picky difference, but it has a significant effect ingame.

 

There is one thing I have learnt from this thread, those who are not willing to listen to reason will not.

 

I believe this thread should now be closed. the OP has their answer and all we are doing is rehasing the same debate back and forth.

 

No, page 44, C state that the modifier is a modifier to the Ld.

As you point out, a small picky difference, but with a significant game effect.

[Souchan]

Actually in all, I think we are trying to look for concise answers in a system that isn't made with them, most seeming priority stuff is just an accident and the rules of a dex seem to never consider the rules of others. All we can do really is try to figure out what makes the most sense to us and our opponents and go with it ;)

[Captain Malachi]

Not really souchan, this one's actually quite clear to most people, I honestly can't see where the argument is coming from, the other point of view makes no sense.

[nurglez]

aye, i consider this a case of having to agree to disagree.

 

I see both sides, and agree with them equally.

 

Lucky for me, the small group i play with doesnt include BT, and im the only necron player, and i sorta put them on the back burner to stick with my chaos ^_^

 

discuss with your opponant before, and maybe roll off before the game, or roll off for each time.