Terminator Armour and Auxiliary Grenade Launchers

[Captain Cygnus]

I've had a few people tell me that a Captain/Chapter Master's Terminator Armour replaces all their other equipment and so can't be used with an auxiliary grenade launcher. While I can understand how that is inferred from the layout, I don't think that's the case (and seem to remember an old terminator model with a grenade launcher on his powerfist).

 

If the answer is "yes," does that also mean that a model in terminator armour can have Melta-bombs? They're not in the list of items the armour replaces, so it seems like they can.

 

Thank you!

[WarpSpawn]

Terminator armour replaces the items listed. Whilst it may potentially effect what else he can select, it does not replace any items not on the list (power armour, chainsword, bolt pistol, and frag 'n' krak, nothng else). Nowhere does it say "replaces all equipment" so this argument does not really work.

 

It also does not explicitly exclude them from taking some of the equipment option. He cannot take some of them because he no longer has an item to trade (plasma pistol for example) and is prohibited from taking a bike or jump pack but things like the grenade launcher and melta bombs would appear to be kosher.

[Legatus]

Melta Bombs, Digital Weapons and Auxilary Grenade Launcher are still available to models in Terminator Armour. I am convinced that they are not supposed to be able to use Melta Bombs though. The rules currently do not say that, though. In Codex DA, BA and CSM the army list entries for characters that are able to get terminator armour are very specific that the terminator option either replaces all other wargear or limits the available options to a specific list of items. In the new Codex Space Marines GW (or rather, Mat Ward?) yet again changed the way wargear is purchased, even if only slightly. For example, previously, the new generation of Marine Codices allowed the models to be equipped with additional weapons listed in their entry. In the new Codex Space Marines, they exchange existing weapons for new ones. I really wish they would apply a consistent system how wargear is purchased. Or how Space Marine wargear works and how much plain tactical squads and assault squads cost, for that matter.

[Oldenhaller]

The fluff gives the description of power fists being able to have them mounted and nothing in the rules states that it's removed from the gear the character has. So, yup termie captain gets to use one. Even tho he looses his grenades, the auxilliary launcher doesn't require them to be used so no worries on that front either.

 

Don't see an issue with the melta bombs myself, there's no rule specifying who can use grenades/bombs etc. On the fluff side of things, Shrike has a bolt pistol and i've no idea how he uses that so mabe they just make them bigger...and made of adamantium...or they 'turn off' their power fists... ^_^

 

~O

[Legatus]

Don't see an issue with the melta bombs myself, there's no rule specifying who can use grenades/bombs etc.

Well, not in the new Codex Space Marines, appearently. But in 2nd, 3rd and 4th Edition models in Termionator Armour never could use any kind of grenade. Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Chaos Terminators still cannot. It is only able in Codex Space Marines, suddenly, so that kind of makes me doubt that this is intentional. Giving a SM character terminator armour also takes away their frag and krak grenades. More to make you stop and question the Melta Bomb option for characters in Terminator Armour.

[Oldenhaller]

yeah - doesn't mnake too much sense why there's been that abrupt u-turn...very odd.

 

Looking at the unit entry there's nothing in there which would suggest you can't with how it's layed out weither...unless termies can't have helfire rounds or digital weapons...?

 

~O

[nighthawks]

only characters can have TDA and meltabombs at the same time, and in many cases this would be the only way to give them any anti-tank capabilities as PFs etc... are not standard kit like on regular terminators. aux launchers are more like missile launchers than grenades, so not realy a 1:1 comparison. they are also relatively rare (cap'n, master, honor guard, anythign else?).

 

digital weapons are reasonably common and allowed with TDA, yes. hellfire rounds can work with a character with a combi-weapon (cap'n and chapter master only, I think)

[Legatus]

only characters can have TDA and meltabombs at the same time, and in many cases this would be the only way to give them any anti-tank capabilities as PFs etc... are not standard kit like on regular terminators.

That is not really a compelling argument in light of the 10 years of 40K where models in TDA specifically could not get meltabombs or any other grenades.

[nighthawks]

and GW never makes models obsolete (tech marine with jump pack, sonic blasters on predators for noisemarines, true grit marines, etc...) nor allows abilities previously denied (multimelta dreadnaught,...)

 

the ruels are pretty clear, Legatus.

[Legatus]

And GW never makes mistakes or typos?

 

If it was only the past three editions. But it is the same with the other recent Marine codices, and chosing Terminator armour will lose the character all his other grenades. I have not a tiniest bit of doubt that it is an oversight.

[nighthawks]

so play it as such - there are no rules, only expensive, published suggestions for the use of their plastic and metal products.

[Playa]

Hey,

 

And GW never makes mistakes or typos?

 

Frequently. We used to call them "Chapter Approved". ;- )

 

 

Playa

[Playa]

Hey,

 

a Captain/Chapter Master's Terminator Armour replaces all their other equipment

 

No. In GW's eyes, a Termi model just replaces the PA model.

So, the Armour and weapon hands are redescribed to match the merch.

Model description now called "Wargear" to confound oblivious rules lawyers.

 

The old "Armoury Wargear" are now the bits listed under "Options".

Options are not replaced by switching models whereas Wargear must be.

 

remember an old terminator model with a grenade launcher on his powerfist

 

Yeah, the devs made rueful reference to "forgetting" that model in a previous edition. X- \

 

a model in terminator armour can have Melta-bombs?

 

A Unit can take any Option listed unless countermanded by another Option.

So - Elite Termis, no; Termi Masters and Termi Captains, yes.

It's the same principle as AGL access.

 

The "grenades" lost when taking TDA aren't weapons, and have no Range.

In this case Grenade is just a fluff term to reconcile in-game CC effects.

The devs seem to think that Termis don't need those effects.

 

 

Playa

[Legatus]

In 2nd Edition grenades could actually be thrown, but models in terminator armour still could not get them.

[Praeger]

Legatus, what edition are we in?

 

If you have never played this game before, what would be needed to play the game?

 

I dont see the rules anywhere saying "refer back to out of print material" - no, what the rules say NOW is what counts.

 

If you dont wish for your termie armored commander to use a melta bomb, then thats fine, dont arm him with it - but denying an opponent this attack souly due to you believing it is a mistake, with no backing from the current rules system, is not an acceptable reason.

[Hexx]

Agreed, probably a mistake, but as far as the rules from the codex (remembering that each is seperate now) it's a viable option.

[Legatus]

Legatus, what edition are we in?

Context rules. I was of course commenting on the post directly above mine.

 

The "grenades" lost when taking TDA aren't weapons, and have no Range.

In this case Grenade is just a fluff term to reconcile in-game CC effects.

The devs seem to think that Termis don't need those effects.

So as I was trying to point out, when the designers were deciding whether or not to let models in Terminator armour use Grenades, they were ranged weapons, not "effects". Terminators have then been unable to use grenades in 3rd, 4th and 5th Edition (with the exception of Codex Marines and Melta Bombs...) because of the standards for Space Marines and their wargear set in 2nd Edition. The designers thinking that terminators don't need the "effects" had nothing to do with it.

[rekrulcinam]

Legatus, you have no rules to base your argument on. Yes, it's clear to most of us who have played this game a decent length of time that termie armored characters with melta bombs is quite unorthodox compared to what was in the last editions... but it's there as a possibility.

 

Would you argue that the entirety of the Master of the Forge, Sternguard, Vanguard, Thunderfire Cannon, and all of the new special character entries are mistakes? They were not in previous editions.

 

Cassius is now T6 with FNP, and his combi-flamer has special ammo... is this a mistake? It wasn't there last time.

 

What about Drop Pods? They used to not even be models in the very old rules (second ed?), but now they have an official GW model. Is this a mistake?

 

Point: It's a brave new world. Get out there and explore it. There's a lot of new stuff.

[Legatus]

Legatus, you have no rules to base your argument on.

What you probably mean is that there is no rule saying Space Marine Terminators cannot use Melta Bombs. Besides that my argument is based in four editions of Space Marine rules. Yes, including this one. 4 different current Codices of this edition.

 

Would you argue that the entirety of the Master of the Forge, Sternguard, Vanguard, Thunderfire Cannon, and all of the new special character entries are mistakes? They were not in previous editions.

If the Space Marine army list and the available units had remained completely unchanged for the last 4 Editions you might have had a point.

 

Cassius is now T6 with FNP, and his combi-flamer has special ammo... is this a mistake? It wasn't there last time.

#If Cassius' rules had remained completely unchanged for the last 4 Editions you might have had a point.

 

What about Drop Pods? They used to not even be models in the very old rules (second ed?), but now they have an official GW model. Is this a mistake?

2nd Ed did not even have rules for Marines dropping on to the table top. Those were introduced in 3rd Edition.

 

We expect changes and tweaks with every new Codex. And sometimes GW changes options that were not possible earlier, like Space Marine characters in power armour being able to use Lightning Claws or Thunder Hammers (from 2nd to 3rd). With Terminators and grenades there is not just the Codex Space Marines. We have 3 other recent Space Marine Codices where Terminators cannot get any grendes. And there is even the issue of them losing frag and krak grenades in the very same Codex. All this makes it much more likely to be an oversight.

[WarpSpawn]

Just out of curiosity, how many editions without change does it offically take to make something qualify as an oversight? I am sure there is a lot that stayed the same through 3rd and 4th, only to change in 5th. There might even be some things that survived 3 editions, though I don't have a list handy.

 

You are also incorrect in your insistance that terminator characters could not have any grenades in any previous edition. In the 2nd edition Ultramarines Codex for example, it does deny them access to the grenades section of the wargear list, however they did have access to up to 3 wargear cards. These included such things as: Toxin Grenads, Haywire Grenade, Stasis Grenade, Rad Grenade, Virus Grenades and, of course, Vortex Grenades.

 

And before you point out this is different because they are not in the wargear section, the wargear card concept is no longer used and numerous items on cards are now in wargear lists and/or unit entries (aux grenade launcher being one of them), whilst others have become standard kit for some, so this would not really be a valid point.

 

Incidentally, I just thought of one thing that stayed the same through 4 editions, then changed in the new book just because they felt like it. A standard Space Marine Land Raider was able to transport 10 models in power or 5 in terminator armour since 1st edition, yet all of a sudden it can not hold 12 and 6 respectively. Oversight?

[Legatus]

Just out of curiosity, how many editions without change does it offically take to make something qualify as an oversight?

If there are contradictory instances in other codices of the current edition and in the same Codex, that helps.

 

You are also incorrect in your insistance that terminator characters could not have any grenades in any previous edition. In the 2nd edition Ultramarines Codex for example, it does deny them access to the grenades section of the wargear list, however they did have access to up to 3 wargear cards. These included such things as: Toxin Grenads, Haywire Grenade, Stasis Grenade, Rad Grenade, Virus Grenades and, of course, Vortex Grenades.

Ah, I forgot about the wargear cards. But this is what it says about the wargear card grenades on page 74 of the Wargear book:

 

"Special issue grenades are rare and powerful devices which are seldom, if ever, entrusted to ordinary troopers. Not only does the individual expense of these potent weapons make this impossible but they are so powerful that their ill chosen use could cause vast accidental damage to friendly forces."

 

So I guess when a Captain insists to take one of these unique and precious artefacts with him while wearing tactical dreadnought armour, the artefacts can individually be customised to make that possible.

 

Incidentally, I just thought of one thing that stayed the same through 4 editions, then changed in the new book just because they felt like it. A standard Space Marine Land Raider was able to transport 10 models in power or 5 in terminator armour since 1st edition, yet all of a sudden it can not hold 12 and 6 respectively. Oversight?

The amount of similar changes in the new Codex Space Marines lend it a certain credibility. But did I ever point out that chosing terminator armour will remove all the grenades the model normally comes equipped with?

[WarpSpawn]

Yes, you might have mentioned it once or twice.

 

But then the 2nd edition example proves that there is historical precedent for terminator characters being denied standard issue grenades, yet having access to special issue ones. Although some may consider them to be pretty common, 5th edition Codex: Space Marines makes melta bombs rather more special issue than they used to be, as they are generally denied to regular troopers.

 

That and the simple fact that sometimes things change from one edition to the next, even from one codex to the next (bit early to discern a pattern in 5th though). Not all of these changes are shouted from the rooftops, yet we cannot call everything we disagree with a mistake. The author of the latest SM book as ridden roughshod over numerous Marine conventions and I see no reason to believe this is not simply one example of such behaviour.

[Brother Captain Matthias]

So, the whole argument is based on the fact that vannila chapters get an option that the more individual chapters don't, right?

 

But if I remember correctly, there is one of the divergent chapters that gets plasma cannons on their dreadnaughts, yet codex chapters don't. Can we blame this on a typo?

[Brother Captain Matthias]

Oops, accidental double post. Stupid flood control...

[Legatus]

So, the whole argument is based on the fact that vannila chapters get an option that the more individual chapters don't, right?

No, that's not quite the issue here. With the current Codex Space Marines, vanilla chapters get a lot of options that other chapters don't get. It is more about an option Space Marines never used to have, the other chapters still don't have and other variations of that option in the current Codex Space Marines that vanilla marines themself still can't have.

 

But if I remember correctly, there is one of the divergent chapters that gets plasma cannons on their dreadnaughts, yet codex chapters don't. Can we blame this on a typo?

Codex Chapters could not get Plasma Cannons for their Dreadnaughts in the 4th Edition Codex, for whatever reason. They could in 2nd and 3rd Edition, and they can again in the current, 5th Edition Codex.