Powerfists

[Stargazer]

As the title suggests are powerfists worth it and why?

[Koremu]

They have their pluses and minuses.

 

Pro-

Instant Death to T4

2+ to wound pretty much everything, and good chance to wound anything else

Multiple S8 anti-vehicle attacks

Normal WS to hit Dreadnoughts

 

Con-

Initiative 1

expensive

No additional attacks from off-hand weapons (unless you pay again for a second PFist)

 

 

 

They are worth using, but they aren't worth over using.

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

Yes. They're great vs. MCs and just when your opponent thinks that your Assault squad is done killing him...bam!

[Reinholt]

It depends.

 

My view on powerfists is this:

 

- The advantage is that you hit extremely hard.

- The disadvantage is that you hit last, and you have fewer attacks.

 

Thus, the times you would want to use them are as follows:

 

- When hitting extremely hard is very valuable (when you can instant death something, when you need to take out a vehicle, or when you are fighting a high toughness opponent)

- When you would go last anyways (eldar, dark eldar, usually)

- When going first wouldn't provide an advantage because you couldn't kill your opponent (this is a bit more complicated, and I'll get to it below)

- When you wouldn't get extra attacks anyways from another weapon

 

Therefore, the places I take power fists in my army are:

 

- On my captain: if you do the math, you are very unlikely to kill anything that is a decent close combat character in one turn with a relic blade or a power weapon. Therefore, my opponent is going to go at least once, so I'd much rather have a weapon that will instant death them if I wound them in most cases. Likewise, it allows them to take out vehicles when necessary.

 

- In my assault squad: this squad is fast enough to chase down things like dreadnoughts, killa kans, wraithlords, transports, and the like, and it's also got enough bodies (10) so that the power fist sergeant almost always survives to strike. Thus, I like it simply because it's a good way to shield and transport a vicious close combat weapon.

 

- With my assault terminators: it's actually thunder hammers for them, but the concept is very similar, as the storm shields they carry means they are very frequently around to strike even against the most vicious of foes in close combat.

 

- With my bike squads: same idea as the assault squad.

 

- With my sternguard: I want the bolter for the special ammo, so I'm not getting an extra attack with a power weapon, and it prevents dreadnoughts / wraithlords / killa kans / etc from wanting to tangle with them.

 

Places I do not like power fists:

 

- In most of my tactical squads: they aren't meant to crunch heavy opposition, and I lose an attack, so I go with power weapons most of the time here now that my guys also have krak grenades if they really need to go after a vehicle in close combat.

 

- In small squads: because they can be wiped out before they strike.

 

- With chaplains: why pay when you already have a power weapon built in?

 

Overall, I'm a big fan of fists because it allows you to crush much more powerful foes (quite literally) who step into your grasp. But the cost is not always worth it. The main thing I would caution against is half-measures with characters. If you want to bludgeon other characters into pulp, take a fist or a thunder hammer. If you really want volume of deadly attacks, there's no substitute for lightning claws. I find things like the relic blade to be a half measure that doesn't stack up in either direction, in the end. I'd rather be Lysander or Shrike than somewhere in the middle, essentially.

[Stargazer]

Thanks for the fast replies guys

 

I normally take 3 10 man tactical squads in Drop Pods. The sergeants normally have power weapons but it was during last game when I came up against 6 Dreadnoughts I thought pehaps I should reconsider. Now I know it's very rare to face that amount of Dreads but I was wondering whether they are worth taking anyway? or do you think that Meltabombs would be better suited in my Army?

 

What do you guys think?

[Pasch]

Besides dreads there are plenty of things Powerfists (and Thunderhammers) are extremely good against. Nobs, most Independent Characters, any < AV 14 vehicle (and even those it can glance).

 

Sure they're expensive, but they dramatically boost your ability to kill a great number of dangerous things and you generally have enough ablative wounds to make sure the powerfist attacks will get thrown.

[chapter master 454]

power fists are generally to me more of the 'right hooks that make all have glass jaw' units. units like termys are the only time you'll see me deploy most the powerfists i use and then i give my assault sarges the power fist/storm shield combo (thinking about thunder hammer). i have never in my entire gaming experience put them on captains. these days if given the choice i go for relics blades, i mainly have to deal with overall units with leaders and relic blades do the job well with strength six dispite it never getting an addition attack (dual relic blades, sounds cool!!!). i take all my leaders with it as most times i find it useful for when they throw in tough units like warbosses with power klaws or such, using the relic blade if i do well -insert snort and a giggle- i can drop the warboss before he attacks and since no warboss i've seen so far has taken cybork bodies -ork mode go!- dez stoopid orkz -ork mode stop- its a generally good way of weakening him well (plus you hit on 3s!). basicly if you want the right hook of doom (or is that left hook?) then go ahead, tanks beware and all beware, just watch out for banshees.

[Koremu]

- On my captain: if you do the math, you are very unlikely to kill anything that is a decent close combat character in one turn with a relic blade or a power weapon. Therefore, my opponent is going to go at least once, so I'd much rather have a weapon that will instant death them if I wound them in most cases. Likewise, it allows them to take out vehicles when necessary.

 

In certain circumstances I agree with you, but if I realy want to crump stuff like that, I tend to take a Master of the Forge with a Thunder Hammer - 5 S8 attacks on the assault, 3 of them from the Hammer.

 

The Relic Blade is my prefered, although not exclusive, Brother-Captain armament. Being able to cut down a larger number of the enemy before they get to strike appeals to me more - especially because at I5 you can rely on at least 2 and probably 3 MEQ kills. If that's 3 Assault Marines, you've just saved yourself a LOT of incoming trouble. You trade the raw offensive power of the PFist or THammer for it, but in many cases it's worth doing.

 

I normally take 3 10 man tactical squads in Drop Pods. The sergeants normally have power weapons but it was during last game when I came up against 6 Dreadnoughts I thought pehaps I should reconsider. Now I know it's very rare to face that amount of Dreads but I was wondering whether they are worth taking anyway? or do you think that Meltabombs would be better suited in my Army?

Six Dreadnoughts is pretty unusual, but I do tend to take at least one PFist. My default tank hunting Tactical Combat Squad has a Sgt. with Combi-Melta and PFist.

 

Besides dreads there are plenty of things Powerfists (and Thunderhammers) are extremely good against. Nobs, most Independent Characters, any < AV 14 vehicle (and even those it can glance).

Even most AV 14 Vehicles have weaker rear armour. It's just the Land Raider that's a real problem at AV14 all round. For that, Melta Bombs are always an option.

 

EDIT: And the Monolith, but that's a special case - I almost never both attacking it.

 

 

Oh, and chapter master 454 - can you PLEASE learn to format your posts into a readable state. Your walls of text are basically unreadable.

[Stargazer]

But do you guys think that it's more cost effective to use meltabombs for the Tank killing or do you think it's still a good idea to take a fist for MCs and the like?

[Koremu]

I'm almost never without at least a couple of Power Fists or Thunder Hammers in all but the smallest army.

[Warp Angel]

My $.02

 

I have a powerfist on my bike squad sergeant for adding a power weapon to the squad. I don't have the option to go PF/BP to get an extra attack anyway, so the only drawback of the fist is the low init. Bikes are tough enough that he's almost always around to use it too.

 

Others have mentioned the instant death aspect. Which mitigates a lot of the strengths of most independent characters, gives you an (outside) shot at inflicting significant damage on Nob Bikerz (instant kill), and lets you can open light vehicles. It's not an anti-Raider weapon though. For that you're better off with melta bombs.

 

I'm reluctant to put a PF on anything with I higher than 4 though, because part of the advantage that you get with characters is going first in hand to hand. Even Lysander, solo, isn't necessarily going to stand up to a mob of Ork boyz, because he's going last. Give him a relic blade and storm shield and his survivability would go up dramatically. Relic blades are better if you're going to give up an attack, single lighting claws come in about the same in the long run as a power weapon against T4 and under, while power weapons provide another dice for you to roll against basic troops. Which can end up meaning a lot, or nothing, depending on your dice luck. You sacrifice consistency for a higher top end.

 

Unlike some others, I do believe in a PF for a tactical squad in the Defender role. At least in my play environment, I'm likely to have Necron Destroyer Lords, Eldar tanks, Ork Nobz, or independent characters in my rear area by the third turn. At that point the PF becomes very useful.

[Koremu]

The thing with Melta Bombs is that it's only really the Land Raider that you need them against (in basic 40k, anyway). Even the other AV14 Front Vehicles have weaker rear armour - usually AV12 and below, and at that point having 3 attacks with 4 to glance each is better than 1 attack needing 4 to glance on 2D6.

 

The only other thing you ever see with AV14 all round is Mr. Monolith...

[minigun762]

But do you guys think that it's more cost effective to use meltabombs for the Tank killing or do you think it's still a good idea to take a fist for MCs and the like?

 

I am one who doesn't believe Meltabombs have that much of a use really. Crazy I know! :devil:

Most Marines come standard with Krak Grenades anyway and against vehicles you're hitting rear armor which tends to be AV10. S6 vs AV10 aint that bad, especially when you have 5-10 guys throwing grenades at it.

 

The times that you won't be hitting AV10 rear armor are:

Against Walkers

Against Land Raiders/Monoliths

 

Against Walkers you're only hitting with a Grenade on a 6 (unless immobilized), that means your single Meltabomb from your Sarge/Champion has a 16% chance to actualy hit the Dreadnought. Thats not that great. Compare that to 2-3 swings with a S8 weapon that will probably hit on a 4+, thats 1-1.5 hits on average. Seems alot better to me.

 

Against Monoliths you run into the whole issue of whether or not Meltabombs get 2D6. I'm not going to comment on it, but if they do they beat out a Power Fist and if they don't, they're equal to a Power Fist but with fewer attacks.

Against Land Raiders they can actually be useful. Krak Grenades are useless and Power Fists can only ever glance. This means that Meltabombs are the only thing you can really rely on in assault (other than Furiously Charing Power Fists and Chainfists and such).

 

For me, taking a Meltabomb that will be useful against 1 type of unit (Land Raiders) at the exclusion of all the things Power Fists are good at doesn't seem worth it. Bring along a Meltagun if you're worried about the Land Raider, it has better range and you're more likely to hit with it if the Land Raider moved at all.

 

Edit: Damn, Koremu said what I said faster and simpler.

[StormTAG]

Also, remember, more attacks means more chances of rolling a 6 when you're swinging against things that moved 12" last turn. Like the Skimmer that just flew across the table to contest the objective you held the whole game.