Grand Master Iapetus Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 K - this one started on the "Apothicaries and Techmarines" thread, but it got me thinking about several things and I didn't want to be a hijakka, yo. Some tactica first: When I take her, my preferred tactic with this little manx is to try and get into the backfield and target a squad near a vehicle if possible. You cover as many models in the squad as you can, but you make sure her placement will also leave the flame template barely touching the vehicle model. You're guaranteed that the vehicle can't shoot the next turn (which is great if it is a really killy shooty firebase vehicle) plus you are going to get to take out the part of the squad with the shredder and then charge in. I have been able to use this on one occasion to cover 2 vehicles and a portion of an infantry squad. This is a best case, if there are no vehicles near the squad I want to target then I will always go for the squad - that is more critical for her best application. Now for the quotes from the other thread: Sadly the Neural Shredder tells us to roll a D3 on the Glancing Hits table, which no longer exists. Completely useless against anything with an armour value :) This is a big sticky wicket...there is still a Vehicle Damage table with Glancing Hits on it, and I think you could equally argue that to be a glancing hits table since it accomplishes the the task described: Hits to vehcles that glance. While there is no "glancing hit table" per RAW, there are still glancing hits and I think this makes perfect RAI sense since glancing hits simply changed from 4e to 5e. Sadly the GW FAQ is silent, and I don't think the adepticon FAQ adequately addresses the issue See below: The FAQ it tells us to roll on the vehicle damage table at -4 the indicated number of times for the Neural Shredder. This is from the adepticon FAQ, right? At first glance it appeared to be a typo - but if not, I certainly I don't agree with their interpretation on this either. 3 points of interest: - You could roll a D3 as stipulated in the first part of the rule which is more consistent with RAW and RAI. - You could apply a -2 for the glance on the 2nd part of the rule. Which even though is not RAW because the glancing hits table no longer exists as a separate entity, seems much more in line with RAI of 5e. - Don't forget the Neural Shredder is AP 1 - this doesn't seem to have been accounted for in the -4 FAQ. This should add an additional +1 to the damage roll. Combined, this gives you a net D3 -1 If you do the -4 RAW, you end up Crew Shaken 83% and Crew Stunned 17%. If you did it the way I described, you end up with Crew Shaken 67% and Crew Stunned 33%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewm9 Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 This is from the adepticon FAQ, right? At first glance it appeared to be a typo - but if not, I certainly I don't agree with their interpretation on this either. 3 points of interest:- You could roll a D3 as stipulated in the first part of the rule which is more consistent with RAW and RAI. - You could apply a -2 for the glance on the 2nd part of the rule. Which even though is not RAW because the glancing hits table no longer exists as a separate entity, seems much more in line with RAI of 5e. - Don't forget the Neural Shredder is AP 1 - this doesn't seem to have been accounted for in the -4 FAQ. This should add an additional +1 to the damage roll. Combined, this gives you a net D3 -1 If you do the -4 RAW, you end up Crew Shaken 83% and Crew Stunned 17%. If you did it the way I described, you end up with Crew Shaken 67% and Crew Stunned 33%. Actually this is from the Games Workshop FAQ. Shockingly they atcually thought of this when they updated the FAQ 3 times last year. Of course this comes from the Witchhunters FAQ. I'm not sure about Daemonhunters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Iapetus Posted January 13, 2009 Author Share Posted January 13, 2009 Actually this is from the Games Workshop FAQ. Shockingly they atcually thought of this when they updated the FAQ 3 times last year. Of course this comes from the Witchhunters FAQ. I'm not sure about Daemonhunters Well now it makes sense why it doesn't make sense: It didn't come from the Adepticon Boyz, it is from the official GW FAQ...ugh. BTW - it's not in the DH FAQ...thanks for pointing that out. Yet one more thing that is not consistent between the 2 FAQs for apparently identical units. They also have a detailed explanation of how the turbo penetrator rending works that is omitted from the DH version... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refyougee Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 If you go with the -4 while taking into account the AP1 a roll of 6 can also net you a Weapon Destroyed result. Not saying it's probable but it's there. So it becomes 66% chance of getting Shaken, 17% of getting stunned, 17% chance of getting WD. It's not amazing but with Polymorphine at least it's a way of ensuring a tank won't be able to fire for a turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamnothere Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 As we're talking Calidus I'll post this here rather than start a new thread. I'm a bit confused which leadership value actually gets used for the neural shredder, here are the crux of my problems: 15 orks, is it Ld 7 or Ld 10 (replace ld value with number of boys)? IG squad with Vox, is it the majority ld value in the squad or th Officer at the other end of the Vox? Tau Crisis suit with 2 drones, is it Ld of the suit or Ld of the drones? As you can tell I'm a bit confused how this works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewm9 Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 I think you would use 10 for Boyz since Mob Rule specifically says they can always use the number of boys for their Leadership score. It does not specify for Morale tests. On Imperial Guard, I think you would have to use their own majority leadership score for the unit being hit with it. I'm guessing on this one since the Vox caster seems to specify using it for tests in its example. That one I think would be up in the air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Iapetus Posted January 13, 2009 Author Share Posted January 13, 2009 If you go with the -4 while taking into account the AP1 a roll of 6 can also net you a Weapon Destroyed result. Not saying it's probable but it's there. So it becomes 66% chance of getting Shaken, 17% of getting stunned, 17% chance of getting WD. It's not amazing but with Polymorphine at least it's a way of ensuring a tank won't be able to fire for a turn. So you are saying the +1 for AP 1 was intentionally not factored into the -4 and should be applied. Pretty good - that would give a slight enhancment. And you hit the nail on the head regarding the use of the Neural Shredder against vehicles. Denying fire for an important firing unit your enemy is counting on can make a difference. I think you would use 10 for Boyz since Mob Rule specifically says they can always use the number of boys for their Leadership score. It does not specify for Morale tests. On Imperial Guard, I think you would have to use their own majority leadership score for the unit being hit with it. I'm guessing on this one since the Vox caster seems to specify using it for tests in its example. That one I think would be up in the air. I don't think the shredder falls under the morale check. As the Ork codes reads, the model can substitute the number of models for it's leadership value, so in the example it would be 15. It doesn't specify in the "Mob Rule!" rule, but I am assuming this caps at 10 (which would wound on a 6+). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 This is a case of an irresistible force hitting an immovable object. The neural shredder says a model's LD value is used to determine the to-wound roll value required, and even says by way of example, "For example, a LD 9 model is wounded on a 5+." This definitely implies that the model's LD statistic is used. On the other hand, the Ork Mob rule states, "Ork mobs may always choose to to substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal Leadership value." That strongly implies that the basic LD stat is actually exchanged for the number of models in the mob. Hard to say which should actually take precedence. It can go either way, logically speaking. Thinking in terms of the meta-game only, I would argue that Orks have more than enough advantages as it is, and being vulnerable to a single neural shredder template in any given game is hardly going to cripple any Ork army in any way, so it would be "more fair" to go with the neural shredder affecting just an Ork model's LD stat, unexchanged/unmodified by Mob Rule. Admittedly, this is not a convincing argument, just the way I would prefer to see it played. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if the majority of rulings in tourneys, custom FAQs like INAT, etc., would weigh in favor of Orks on this one. I'd be interested to know how everybody's gaming groups resolves this issue. It hasn't come up for us, but that's because few of the people in my gaming circle play with Orks. They all consider the army too powerful and too easy to play/win with to be any fun. :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamnothere Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Ok with the Orks I was pretty happy rules wise to go their way. What about the Tau or the IG examples I gave? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 As already noted, majority LD is used instead of majority toughness. The vox caster doesn't actually change any of the LD stats of the targeted guardsmen, so majority LD is used. It's just that simple. The VC has no bearing whatsoever. This is A Good Thing! Same thing with your Tau battlesuit with drones. It's 2 drones to 1 suit, so majority LD is used. The Tau codex is clear enough: drones count as members of a unit for all game purposes save for preventing an IC with drones from joining other units. Tough luck, Tau! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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