da_doktor Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Hi All, I am very much a 40K newbie and I have a question (or two :) ) regarding scouts. The Landspeeder Storm has a jamming beacon. How useful is this (worth having in an army?) and has anyone had personal experience using this function? As far as using Sgt Telion and the ability to use his BS is it better to have a HB, or ML? Again can anyone share their personal experiences using Telion? Thanks all in advance!!!! :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedwin183 Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Telion is a wonderful upgrade to take for your scouts. His gun is very good, he never misses and he's like a cheap vindicare assassin for SM. For 50 points, you can't beat him. Whenever I take sniper scouts, I ALWAYS take him. I think most other people on this forum will say the same. He's kind of a must if you take sniper scouts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tual Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 As far as using Sgt Telion and the ability to use his BS is it better to have a HB, or ML? Again can anyone share their personal experiences using Telion? better using his BS to shoot his own gun... The Landspeeder Storm has a jamming beacon. How useful is this (worth having in an army?) and has anyone had personal experience using this function? I am playing around with 2 LSS at the moment.. I havent used them much but they are looking promising... I have them for scoring unit delivery/protection though... the other stuff has been junk so far.. 5 scouts winning a combat? hehehe I wish... In a fortnight I will have a better understanding of them as I have a tourney to attend and I am brining a pair of LSS along... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 The best use for telion is in a unit with a heavy bolter, using his voice of experience he can 'loan' his BS to the heavy bolter operator who then fires a hellfire template that wont scatter as far and wounds on 2+ Of course Telion has the ability to place wounds, which potentially allows you to take out a heavy weapon or sergeant from a unit without working through the ablative wounds first. The LSS beacon is used to prevent deepstriking from anywhere within 6", if someone tries they scatter 4D6 and risks a serious accident with terrain etc...Its not really a big help to anyhting other than the LSS, as most experienced players will know not to try it...also it has no real affect on drop pods as the guys inside wont be affected by mishaps. This being said if you ran with 2 or 3 against a deamon army they could help clear large areas of the table....just imagine big templates (12" across) that cause crazy scatter on DS'ing units. People probably hate me repeating this (i do so in every scout thread) but click on the link in my sig for some tips. GC08 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
da_doktor Posted January 15, 2009 Author Share Posted January 15, 2009 Thanks all for the replies!! They are greatly appreciated! :) Brother Tual: The reason I thought about the ML in relation to borrowing Telion's BS was the ML's increased range over his bolter and the ML's ability to take out light/medium vehicles. Telion firing with his own weapon is something I would see happening virtually all of the time. GC08: I have read your scout tactica and I found it to be fantastic! In fact it is the reason I am looking at putting together a scout based army. Have you used a scout army much? If so what have your experiences been? My only concern with a scouts based list is that they will get wiped out too easily (and too quickly). What are peoples thoughts on using a libarian as a HQ choice? Are there any "normal" space marine units that could be taken without completely ruining the feel/fluff of the scouts force? (e.g. termies, etc) Thanks again for all teh feedback!! :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 GC08: I have read your scout tactica and I found it to be fantastic! In fact it is the reason I am looking at putting together a scout based army. Have you used a scout army much? If so what have your experiences been? My only concern with a scouts based list is that they will get wiped out too easily (and too quickly). I havent played a full army yet as im still building up, i have however played a few extra units in a regular army Currently i have Telion 20 snipers 10 bolter scouts 10 shotgunners 5 CCWs Master of recruits 3 bikers But i am planning a few games using stand-ins and may have a small points game 2morow time permitting. I also have a LSS conversion planned (2 infact) and plan a WIP article...its all go at the moment, its a shame i dont have alot of disposable income :huh: The Tactica was written as a combination of both theory and experience from other scout enthusiasts such as Cadarn, Jackelope King, Dragonlady, Tedwardius and Owencrute to name but a few.....(heh im name dropping), In fact it was Cadarns first in depth look at bikes and LSS that made me plan the tactica! Real playtesting happens this year, so keep an eye out for threads on my progress. What are peoples thoughts on using a libarian as a HQ choice? Are there any "normal" space marine units that could be taken without completely ruining the feel/fluff of the scouts force? (e.g. termies, etc) Anything goes if thats what you want, scouts are an advance force, pin-pointing enemy forces for surgical strike from elite/assault units, so Deepstriking units and drop pods etc fit into this well as do chapter masters for O-B. As for HQ anything goes, the scout company is still a space marine company and will have a command echelon, and chapter librarians always monitor initiates for psychic potential, as chaplains will preach the emperors word to the new boys. If you can write it and it makes sense then use it!! Thanks for the kind words and im glad the article has helped/inspired you GC08 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharik Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Telion is an awesome buy, he gives the whole squad + cover and can kill the hidden powerfist and special weapons in enemy squads! Combine him with snipers and cloaks and your scouts have +2 to cover! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Telion is an awesome buy, he gives the whole squad + cover and can kill the hidden powerfist and special weapons in enemy squads! Combine him with snipers and cloaks and your scouts have +2 to cover! I think you have made a mistake with Telion, he doesnt add anything to the units save, he himself has the stealth USR, which is useless unless the rest of the squad is killed and he is on his own (enemy has to roll spotting distance). Cloaks still give a 3+ cover save, the only way to get the 2+ is with a techmarine and fortify ruins rule. GC08 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
da_doktor Posted January 15, 2009 Author Share Posted January 15, 2009 The frustrating thing with the LSS is that they take up fast attack slots which then means less opportunity to get scout bikers. Thanks for all the feedback!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silber Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 [Telion] himself has the stealth USR, which is useless unless the rest of the squad is killed and he is on his own (enemy has to roll spotting distance). Enemy has to roll spotting distance? Where did you get that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharik Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 the USR stealths gives +1 to cover save and the rulebook says: i quote "all of the unit's cover saves are improved by 1" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Yeah sorry guys, ive been reading my tau codex recently, got the two stealth rules mixed up (spotting distance is for stealth-suits), as for Telions +1, i cant remember what thread, but it was discused that he doesnt give his stealth rule to the unit and hence the unit cant have it..... But not one to dismiss a good thing, ill check into it and get back to you.... Thanks guys GC08 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tual Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 this is going to go off topic quickly with talk about stealth rules... the ability is either confered onto the unit as (although he is not an IC) an IC confers this ability onto a unit he joins, the rule book has nothing in relation to unit upgrades and the ability... I would personally would allow the unit to benefit from the ability as it seems strange that an IC will grant it, but not a scout sergeant upgrade... or you can take it that the stealth rule is for him only (so wounds allocated on him will benefit) but is there incase you buy cloaks for the unit, he also has the same rule in his profile as you cant give him additional gear... so you wont get the odd combination of the unit having stealth and not him... Brother Tual: The reason I thought about the ML in relation to borrowing Telion's BS was the ML's increased range over his bolter and the ML's ability to take out light/medium vehicles. Telion firing with his own weapon is something I would see happening virtually all of the time. good point, but if something is beyond his range or weapon ability (not relying on rending!) then that makes sense... why waste the BS?? but otherwise I would use his own weapon... it has a good range, rending, 2 shots, pinning, and allocates wounds! I agree with you, telion firing his own weapon is something that you cant really go wrong with... The HB, per GC08 suggestion is nasty with only a BS of 3 and the additional hurt of telions own weapon (same range) may be better than reducing the scatter by 3', if it does scatter... is not something I totally agree with, unless its something that will rely on the rending rule (C'tan - Wraith lord - etc) to affect... even then, I still might chance it on the latter as the rend will deny a save... personal preference.. P.S - nice big writing there GC08 in your sig... maybe you should get some neon lights put around it... :tu: look at my puncey little link to my tactica... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 P.S - nice big writing there GC08 in your sig... maybe you should get some neon lights put around it... :) look at my puncey little link to my tactica... Yeah the wife packed away the christams lights ;) , i want people to see it without having to keep saying, "click the link in my sig".....as Idaho would put it, its shameless self promotion :P Heres a link on the stealth rule clicky... Its not black and white, but it seems as hes not an IC until the unit dies then he does not confer the stealth rule on his original unit, If for example the whole squad died, he would become an IC and could join another unit and give them stealth.....confused yet? GC08 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tual Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 why would he become an IC? vet sergeants dont... Telion is 'just' a type of sergeant upgrade... like Honour Guard were to tactical squads.. they actually replace a member... not add to a squad... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 why would he become an IC? vet sergeants dont... Telion is 'just' a type of sergeant upgrade... like Honour Guard were to tactical squads.. they actually replace a member... not add to a squad... Huh? that actually makes sense....so basically the only time he could ever use stealth is on his own when the whole squad his dead?.....why would they even give him that rule? GC08 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tual Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 or if you allocate a wound against him... then it will kick in... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 or if you allocate a wound against him... then it will kick in... The argument remains however that if he has the stealth ability would you need to buy the cloak (do you have to buy for full units only), as the cloak gives you stealth and the two wont stack, its of no real benefit..except maybe if in the open when cloaks dont work. GC08 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tual Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 you can always go to ground... 5+ cover then... otherwise... I dont know... it looks like one of those things overlooked in having named, non IC characters... which is new for marines... If he was an IC, the rules would work perfectly as he would confer stealth to his unit... they probably didnt want 11 man scout squads running around though... so they did it this way but forgot to write a clause about stealth in this case.. As I said earlier, I would let you do it.. have stealth because of telion... but others might not... It only really matters in tourney play as you kinda need a level playing field... in this case, just ask the TO... otherwise... with mates... roll off on it or just play it how you guys want to... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koremu Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 or if you allocate a wound against him... then it will kick in... The argument remains however that if he has the stealth ability would you need to buy the cloak (do you have to buy for full units only), as the cloak gives you stealth and the two wont stack, its of no real benefit..except maybe if in the open when cloaks dont work. GC08 You're not making any sense. Stealth isn't an asterisked USR (see p74 BRB), so it is NOT lost by the character when joining a squad without it. It isn't granted to the rest of the squad (no rule says it should be) And in the open there is no Cover Save, so both cloaks and Telions ability are defunct. If the squad has both Telion and cloaks, then Telion only has Stealth once (and yes, you do have to pay 3 points for a Cloak for Telion) All Stealth on Telion means is that you get the bonus to his Cover saves even if the squad does not have cloaks. EDIT: If he was an IC, the rules would work perfectly as he would confer stealth to his unit. p48 BRB; "Unless specified in the rule itself, the units special rules are not conferred upon the character, and the characters special rules are not conferred upon the unit." So no, he would not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 You're not making any sense. Hey welcome to my fanclub ;) , its a popular saying amongst my B&C buddies :P Stealth isn't an asterisked USR (see p74 BRB), so it is NOT lost by the character when joining a squad without it. It isn't granted to the rest of the squad (no rule says it should be) And in the open there is no Cover Save, so both cloaks and Telions ability are defunct. If the squad has both Telion and cloaks, then Telion only has Stealth once (and yes, you do have to pay 3 points for a Cloak for Telion) All Stealth on Telion means is that you get the bonus to his Cover saves even if the squad does not have cloaks. p48 BRB; "Unless specified in the rule itself, the units special rules are not conferred upon the character, and the characters special rules are not conferred upon the unit." Ah someone has explained it for me....now i can relax and have a cuppa :) I was right though my reasoning was wrong, the stealth is not confered on the unit... Sorry to the OP for thread-jacking GC08 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tual Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 All I have to say on stealth is - all of the units coversaves are improved by +1 - So I would give it across the board (that unit) and as he is not an IC it has to be with the unit he is the upgrade for (ie, putting him in a dev unit etc) with or without cloaks on the rest of the models.. but thats my view... QUOTE (Brother Tual @ Jan 16 2009, 02:10 PM) If he was an IC, the rules would work perfectly as he would confer stealth to his unit. p48 BRB; "Unless specified in the rule itself, the units special rules are not conferred upon the character, and the characters special rules are not conferred upon the unit." So no, he would not. good 'o' - I missed that part.. cheers... The rules would work perfectly though... as they are black and white.. ;) NO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 All I have to say on stealth is - all of the units coversaves are improved by +1 - So I would give it across the board (that unit) and as he is not an IC it has to be with the unit he is the upgrade for (ie, putting him in a dev unit etc) with or without cloaks on the rest of the models.. but thats my view... Yeah i agree that sounds fair and is probably what was intended, but for the purposes of RAW and rules clarification is is too badly written to use as such... Of course in friendly games id allow it...and with my scout army would hope others think the same..... GC08 Edit: Dammit, its hard enough to make myself look intelligent, without editing your posts to change thier meaning....give me a chance guys ;) So Telion DOESNT give stealth to his unit, under any circumstances....cleared up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silber Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Well, in the rule it says "all of the units cover saves". As Telion is not an IC this surely is true for the whole unit, isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Well, in the rule it says "all of the units cover saves". As Telion is not an IC this surely is true for the whole unit, isn't it? Yes but the rule was a general one and not necessairly directed at Telions unit, it simply means the unit with the rule gets this bonus.... Whilst Telion has the rule the unit doesnt..... Im sure someone else can explain better though... GC08 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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