Grey Knight Unit Size

[Inquisitor =D=]

Hey everybody! ^_^

 

So, I've been grinding my head on it for some time now and I would like to know all of your opinions on this. Is it better to run a few larger squads of GKs or many smaller squads? All the eggs in one basket or a couple of eggs in multiple baskets. However you phrase it the question remains the same.

 

Large Squad Pros-

- Survivability :lol:

- More firepower

- Better chance of getting the job done

 

Large Squad Cons-

- Larger Target

- Suffers heavily under combined fire

- Limited to traveling together

 

Small Squad Pros-

- Lower Profile (can squeeze into cover better)

- Multiple small squads can assault multiple objectives

- More Power weapons than equal points of large squad

 

Small Squad Cons-

- Less firepower

- Less models than equal points of large squad

- Less Survivability?

 

What do you all think? I still have yet to play 5th ed. so feel free to point out the obvious. ( yeah I know, " Still hasn't played 5th ed? Does he live under a rock?" And as a matter of fact I do. The nearest game store is close to 100 miles away and the only other 40k player in my area has sworn to never touch it again as he feels GW changes too fast. Lol...)

 

=]D[=

[templargdt]

I think you should go for larger squads. It makes the squad more survivable and since scoring units are so important, that makes a big difference.

[Red Lost Soldier]

I still think 8 man is the minimum for your general purpose GK squad. Have experimented a little with larger squads and the effect is nice, but not completely necessary. You need lots of bodies in order to lose a few and still be a viable combat unit, and every GK lost also diminishes the firepower, which GK rely on.

 

I haven't played much with 6 man dual psycannon squads, but can see the viability in their application for using max psycannon range with shrouding and holding a home objective. I usually use IST in this role myself, cheaper and with better special weapon options.

 

Large Squad Cons-

- Larger Target

- Suffers heavily under combined fire

- Limited to traveling together

I actually think this is worse for smaller squads due to wound allocation. Losing the Justicar is a major loss and much easier to happen with small squads.

[Reinholt]

The issue, to me, is this:

 

If you are taking small squads, why not just take stormtroopers? Much cheaper, still not terribly durable (no small squads are), and you can have fancy special weapons for cheap as well.

 

If you want a group to watch the home base, I like stormtroopers now.

 

Grey Knights should go big or go home; part of the value of the unit is the close combat potential in combination with the shooting potential, and quite honestly, six or less Grey Knights is not terribly scary in assault (excepting GKTs, but that's another story). There's just not enough bodies!

[Adoremus]

I partly disagree, because I have found 6 man dual psycannon squads quite valuable. They are not intended for CC but usually first provide fire coverage and then quickly move towards cleared objectives while still shooting.

 

Another setup that has been 6 PAGK with 2 Incinerators deep striking. This one is a bit of a gamble though as you need to land close to the enemy, so you can roast him in turn 1 after DS and trace the remains in turn 2 after DS.

 

None of the two are ever seen in larger quantities than 2 even in my Apoc games, but I still think they do work.

 

In a 5 game target setup I usually cannot afford 3+ 10 man PAGK squads so I tend to make 8 my max. squad size.

[Spartans]

I also disagree and have played various points games up to 1500 points and found my 6 PAGK and a Justicar to be very effective but would be hesitant to go any less.

[number6]

You can get away with smaller units -- I am now commonly mixing in 6-7 model units with and without psycannons in my lists, for example -- but only in certain situations, only for particular/niche tactical purposes, only against some opponents. The earlier comment of "go big or go home" is largely accurate and is always a good rule of thumb. You can never go wrong with a unit containing at least 8 models. I now regularly use 2x psycannons in one of my PAGK units, but even then it is almost always 8-10 models.

 

Quite simply, you need wounds to protect your Justicar and/or your special weapons. You need extra bodies to really put the scare into enemies whether you're shooting or assaulting. You need extra bodies to help you keep the unit going so you can contest/claim objectives all the way to turn 7. If you go only 5 or 6 models, you make it easier for your opponent to survive you and/or to eliminate you. Having extra units is really nowhere near as useful as having fewer units that work dependably and reliably.

 

Combat-squadding Space Marines can get away with multiple 5-model units because they can get so very many of them. They can actually afford to designate some units as expendable, and tactically employ them as such. We do not have that luxury. Don't get caught in the trap of thinking like a Space Marines player when you play with Grey Knights. We're not Space Marines. We're different. We're better. :tu:

[ThePurifier]

Eight seems to be the number that works best for me. Rarely *knocks on wood* do I have a GK squad get totally wiped out. I'd love to field bigger squads but the extra points takes away too much from other needed unit choices.

[ripath]

8 man squad so that I can fit in a BC nicely in a 750 point game and above. I think I make my units easy to add together sometimes instead of max efficiency. strangely this works as that I know what I can field in a short amount of time and not be too far under the point limit to hurt myself majorly. lol I'm not a powergamer when I make my lists, I'm a person that might make a mistake if the numbers are too messy. I just realized how often I use algebra and probability while playing this game, and that I was never the person to ask where will I use this in school.

[Mal]

One thing to remember.... a grey knight is not more durable than a regular space marine... and lets face it... in this day and age, a space marine isn't actually all that durable. The anti-MEQ weaponry options are a standard for pretty much every army out there.

 

What does this mean? Well simply put, expect to take casualties, and more than a couple. Small units are great for sergical strikes, in and out to get the job done... however they lack staying power, a single good turn of shooting against them and they die, a single turn of decent combat against them and they die. What you need to ask yourself is this: Can I afford to loose this unit? If the answer is no, then make it big.

[archonbrujah]

Maybe I've just been lucky in that my opponents don;t take optomized anti-MEQ squads (we tend to play pick up games, and I own a fair few armies to choose from, many not PA) but my 6 man squads have always been beefy enough to get the job done. Of course, I also feel some IST's to go along as well, so that may skew the results I get.

 

Besides, they always worry far more about my GKT's showing up at inopportune times :)

 

Archonbrujah

[Bucky]

One thing to remember.... a grey knight is not more durable than a regular space marine... and lets face it... in this day and age, a space marine isn't actually all that durable. The anti-MEQ weaponry options are a standard for pretty much every army out there.

 

What does this mean? Well simply put, expect to take casualties, and more than a couple. Small units are great for sergical strikes, in and out to get the job done... however they lack staying power, a single good turn of shooting against them and they die, a single turn of decent combat against them and they die. What you need to ask yourself is this: Can I afford to loose this unit? If the answer is no, then make it big.

 

Well said!

[Inquisitor =D=]

It would seem to me that the general consensus here is either an 8 man squad for just about every purpose or a 6 man squad for specific actions. This is good then. If almost everyone agrees then it must be so.

 

Thank you all.

 

=]D[=

[Mal]

It would seem to me that the general consensus here is either an 8 man squad for just about every purpose or a 6 man squad for specific actions. This is good then. If almost everyone agrees then it must be so.

 

Thank you all.

 

=]D[=

 

Heh, your assuming we have the faintest idea what we are talking about ;)

[jhrovii]

It would seem to me that the general consensus here is either an 8 man squad for just about every purpose or a 6 man squad for specific actions. This is good then. If almost everyone agrees then it must be so.

 

Thank you all.

 

=]D[=

I would say 10 for Land Raiding though.

 

6 for Deepstriking/holding home objective. 8 for general-purpose use. Variants in-between for what points allow.

[Alanter]

I think Mal is a bit wrong there. Not totally, but I think unit size depends on your play style. I try to keep 24" away form the enemy in order to maximise two great advantages of our PAGK. They have stormbolter and shrouding. I choose 8 man squads as a consequence. First I do not pay for expensive, not-better-shooting justicars, second all the squads weapons can move an fire up to 24".

 

The thing that you missed Mal is that PAGK survive longer in shooting as long as they stay away form the enemy using the shrouding rule. If you mathhammer shrouding, you will get some kind of 20% to 24% chance that the enemy is not allowed to shoot at your squad or anything else.

 

This is not supposed to be offense, I just want to add in another point o f view.

[Mal]

Nothing at all offensive with what you put there Alanter, and its right too... but I still stand by what I said about shrouding... its nice, but its not reliable. all things considering, if you bet on a 20-24% chance... your playing against the odds not with them... or in other words, your in a position you do not want to be in.

 

As for the stormbolter, this is a key element to virtually all effective pure GK strageties I have seen, the added mobality is something not to be squandered. But mobality aside, its only a Str4 weapon.... so once again, while nice... its rarely a game winner on its own.

 

But these are just opinions, I would recommend that anyone trying out for a pure GK army should try a number of different builds and tactics to see what works best for them.

[Alanter]

But these are just opinions, I would recommend that anyone trying out for a pure GK army should try a number of different builds and tactics to see what works best for them.

 

This is right.

 

Shrouding is not a 3++ save - for sure - but you will have a few lesser losses. You pay the points for shrouding and I think this way it works best.

[Mal]

Shrouding is not a 3++ save - for sure - but you will have a few lesser losses. You pay the points for shrouding and I think this way it works best.

 

Couldn't agree more, after all, I do play water warrior pure GK at 1500pts.

[Red Lost Soldier]

I think Mal is a bit wrong there. Not totally, but I think unit size depends on your play style. I try to keep 24" away form the enemy in order to maximise two great advantages of our PAGK. They have stormbolter and shrouding. I choose 8 man squads as a consequence. First I do not pay for expensive, not-better-shooting justicars, second all the squads weapons can move an fire up to 24".

How do you get away with this? Justicars are a mandatory choice in a GK squad. Not to mention they provide a much needed combat edge to make the squad fully flexible rather than just a fancy Dire Avenger squad.

 

The thing that you missed Mal is that PAGK survive longer in shooting as long as they stay away form the enemy using the shrouding rule. If you mathhammer shrouding, you will get some kind of 20% to 24% chance that the enemy is not allowed to shoot at your squad or anything else.

I think you'll find the average shrouding roll is over 30". Somewhat greater than your percentage suggests. Shrouding is still useful however.

[Alanter]

How do you get away with this? Justicars are a mandatory choice in a GK squad. Not to mention they provide a much needed combat edge to make the squad fully flexible rather than just a fancy Dire Avenger squad.

I am sorry that you got me wrong there. Of course every PAGK squad has to have a Justicar. But if you increase the unit size, you will pay less for Justicars.

 

24 GK in 6man squads ---> 4 Justicars

24 GK in 8man squads ---> 3 Justicars

 

The Justicar is a mandatory - I would choose him even with the rule not making me. But 3 are enough in 1850p.

 

I think you'll find the average shrouding roll is over 30". Somewhat greater than your percentage suggests. Shrouding is still useful however.

 

It will help if you mathhammer a little bit. 31.5 is the average - but this is not proportional. You throw 3d6 * 3. For the math only the 3d6 are needed. The average of 3d6 is 3 times 3.5 [10.5].

24/3=8

 

You have to add the chances of the results 3,4,5,6,7,8. The result is around 25%. 20% to 24% is the ingame percentage, because you will be under 24" away form the enemy in order to shoot you stormbolter. The interesting part is that as long as you get closer to the average you will gain or lose protecion faster and faster. For me this matters, because moving just a bit more results in having much more protection.

[Thaelion Hexis]

I am sorry that you got me wrong there. Of course every PAGK squad has to have a Justicar. But if you increase the unit size, you will pay less for Justicars.

 

24 GK in 6man squads ---> 4 Justicars

24 GK in 8man squads ---> 3 Justicars

 

Thats is exactly the sort of thing I was thinking about. Since a Justicar is twice the cost of a Grey Knight, larger amounts of smaller squads will run more expensive with less models. While the Justicar does have the edge in assault, he shoots no better than any other Grey Knight. And if you plan on spending a lot more time shooting, that's points not being used right there. Not to mention wound allocation, as someone already brought up, that makes those extra Justicars more vulnerable.

 

I sometimes take one 6 man squad with psycannons to hold the fort. But mostly it's 8 man squads, no special weapon.

[Alanter]

Thats is exactly the sort of thing I was thinking about. Since a Justicar is twive the cost of a Gre Knight, larger amounts of smaller squads will run more expensive with less models. While the Justicar does have the edge in assault, he shoots no better than any other Grey Knight. And if you plan on spending a lot more time shooting, that's points not being used right there. Not to mention wound allocation, as someone already brought up, that makes those extra Justicars more vulnerable.

 

I sometimes take one 6 man squad with psycannons to hold the fort. But mostly it's 8 man squads, no special weapon.

 

You just read my thoughts. Grey Knight do not excel in CC. The Justicar is just there to deal with surprises.

 

The 6man-2psicannon-squad looks like an easy way - but remember there are no easy ways in the Demon Hunter's codex. ;)

[Red Lost Soldier]

My mistake, I completely misread how you stated things. I thought you meant it was only a 20-25% chance of being seen in SB range, not the other way around.

 

Yeah I see now, another good reason for large squads, effectively more bodies. Yeah I'd still take Justicars myself even if they were not mandatory. They make the GK's fully flexible.

[Noirceuil]

I would go with as many bodies as possible in each GKiPA unit. While fielding up to 6 S6 AP4 shots that ignore invulnerable saves (assuming PC are chosen) is great for taking down infantry or glancing a walker or light armour vehicle into a shaken or stunned state, (IMHO) it doesn't justify giving up an additional body for each option taken.

 

Don't fool yourself into thinking PCs are anything but a luxury taken in much larger point games where you have the extra points to burn. I can much more easily justify taking incinerators than PCs, given their comparatively lower cost and the fact they ignore cover saves in addition to inv. saves. One of these upgrades will assist in winnowing down the target unit before the assault at a bargain, while allowing for the 2 additional bodies (which would have been forfeited with 2 PC upgrades).

 

The LCs mounted on Dreads / LRs - OR - specialized IST units tasked with hunting armour are what you should be including in your DH list to address heavy infantry (2+ saves or 2-wound models) or enemy armour. (allied IG infantry squads with hidden LCs are good too)

 

Like someone in this thread already mentioned, it comes down to your style of play.

 

If you think using GKs primarily as move/shoot units, that's fine if that style of play works for you.

 

I am often reminded when I play against bonafide SM players, that the ability to move and shoot 24" - OR - rapidfire into the target unit, then assault with S6 is great.

 

In both cases, more bodies will mathematically give you more shots (8 shots for 4 GKiPAs with SBs - vs - 6 shots for 2 GKiPAs with PCs) and great ability to win in CC (added 4 attacks for the unit that didnt upgrade to PCs).

 

Under 4E, I've played smaller units of GKiPAs to maximize my unit count, with and without PC/I upgrades.

 

In my experience, when the firestorm hits you really want those 2 extra bodies when you're removing casualties ;)