Redbaron997 Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 What up with all the Horus Hate? It seems like everywhere I look someone (looks at Abby) is calling Horus a "Fool" or a "Failure". In my mind this could not be farther from the truth. If anything Horus should be held as the Greatest Hero in the Universe. This is how I see it: The Warmaster ran outa time, and took on the Traitor emperor 1vs1. While Horus did die, his sacrifice saw the Traitor emperor bound into his throne of decay and saw the unity of the Imperium broken. If he hadnt taken the chance, maybe they coulda beat them anyways, but probably not. At least by his sacrfice we saw the Great Crusade halted, the growth and prosperity of the Imerpium dashed to bits, the "loyalist" marines discraced to be to scared of thier own power and thier legions broken down, and the eventual complete decay of the Imperium. In addition, Horus sacrificed not only his life, but his soul! so that humanity may one day be free from the tyranny of the Traitor emperor. And it IS working, the Imperium is on the very edge of collapse, the Cadian gate has been broken down, the entire Imperium completely rotten from within by idiotic beaurocrats, and our victory assured. As much as I love the other Primarchs, they wouldnt have lasted 10 seconds versus the Traitor emperor, and Abby, his biggest discreditor, would have gotten flicked in the face and completely disentragted by the Traitor emperor. I am not saying Abby isnt the rightful heir of the Sons of Horus, or that he didnt save the Legion by helping them move on, and I can even bight my tongue about him calling himself warmaster, but regardless THE Warmaster should be honored and celebrated as the great Matyr and Saviour of Humanity, who again gave not only his life, BUT HIS SOUL so that mankind may be free of the Traitor emperor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Horus may have been a great 'man', but he foolishly underestimated everyone in his little soap box play.... Time and time again his plans lost ground to the heroes of the imperium....From the Ultras at Calth, to the wolves quick victory at Prospero.... The stubborness of the troops at the dropsite massacre... In fact if the first major battle against Sallies, raven guard, iron hands hadnt gone so well, he may have steadied himself for a greater campaign, instead he was lulled into a false sense of security..Had his plans worked better, he would have had more time to lay seige to earth and would have killed the Emperor... And the only reason he wounded his father is because his father couldnt bring himself to kill his own son....until he had no further recourse.. Lets face it Horis made a better good guy than he did a villain... The imperium of man is falling because of mans own failings, men arent corrupted by what Horus did, but by thier own greed and stupidity, they leave themselves open to the temptation of chaos and before you know it they are flaggelating one another and calling for the blood of thier neighbours... Ultimately the scene is set in grimdarkness, but that doesnt mean the empire will fall, there are still the vast chapters of Space marines to defend the borders, and tbh they are far more at danger from the nids than chaos, and the nids will eat humans regardless of flavour... On the flip side if Abby was so much greater than Horus, why is it that after 13 crusades he hasnt acheived much??? GC08 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Horus was a fool. He did not knowingly, or willingly, sacrifice himself for the cause. He was only ever a pawn of the Gods. His arrogance clouded him to his own weaknesses and left him open to be manipulated. His ego was used against him to turn him against the corpse emperor, and then again it was his ego that caused him to lower his defenses and allow the false god to slay him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 it was his ego that caused him to lower his defenses and allow the false god to slay him. Horus wasnt killed by one of the chaos gods, he was killed by the Emperor :devil: GC08 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 it was his ego that caused him to lower his defenses and allow the false god to slay him. Horus wasnt killed by one of the chaos gods, he was killed by the Emperor :devil: GC08 I don't see what in my quote implies that the chaos gods killed him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnus Thane Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Pfff overreactions as usual. It's like the Abby bashing i constantly encounter about how he's had 13 Black Crusades and the Empire still hasn't fallen. Those comments make me laugh. :sweat: Personal i found Horus quite brilliant. He wasn't perfect but than nobody in WH40K is nor should be. He had to loose in the end so suddenly he does a whacky thing like teleporting in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AekoldHelbrass Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Agree with Magnus, Horus was the greatest of Primarchs, greatest creation of all the universe. Where "Horus Hate" started? There are few ways: 1. Loyalist primarchs and legions hated him for killing the emperor and almost destroying terra. They were too blind to follow their stil alive corpse-god. And of course guys like Dorn and Guilliman could never agree Horus was the greatest. 2. Other traitor legions hated Horus because they have no other person to hate for their failure on the Terra. Horus started Heresy, Horus lead them, Horus sieged emperor's palace. Even when it looked like the end is near - Horus risked to meet with emperor just to save all this campain. But after his death they just ran avay, hating Horus for their misery. 3. After Horus death Sons of Horus were depressed and crushed. Abbadon was their leader, and he had to do something. The only think he could - to claim Horus to be fool and weak, to make everyone beleive they still can do something. While it was hard to beleive, because Horus really was the greatest. But Abbadon did it, and name change from Sons of Horus to Black Legion is another strategy to return morale of the legion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thantoes Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 it was his ego that caused him to lower his defenses and allow the false god to slay him. Horus wasnt killed by one of the chaos gods, he was killed by the Emperor :P ;) GC08 I don't see what in my quote implies that the chaos gods killed him? I think GC08 is very tongue in cheek implying that the chaos gods are the "false gods" and not the emperor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Agree with Magnus, Horus was the greatest of Primarchs, greatest creation of all the universe. Where "Horus Hate" started? There are few ways: Debateable whether he could be seen as the greatest, before the HH maybe, but the actions of 1 or two of his brothers during/after this time would give them the right to claim this...Sanguinus, Guilliman maybe?? For me there is no hate beyond Horus being the ultimate villain GC08 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 On the flip side if Abby was so much greater than Horus, why is it that after 13 crusades he hasnt acheived much??? GC08 This crops up time and time again and while Abaddon's tactical acumen has been dubious at best (until recent crusades), his crusades were by no means exclusively failures. He's the arch villain after all. The First Black Crusade - Many worlds left as burned husks, Abaddon acquires Drachn'nyen. The Second Black Crusade - the Imperium was prepared that time, little damage reported. The Third Black Crusade - ? The Fourth Black Crusade - Abaddon attacks and destroys the Citadel of Kromarch on El'Phanor, but the cost was enormous and he is repelled by the Imperial counter-attack. The Fifth Black Crusade - ? The Sixth Black Crusade - ? The Seventh Black Crusade - The heretics conducted lightning raids across the Segmentum Obscuras. Slaughter of the Blood Angels at Mackan. Abaddon captures the Hand of Darkness (it's lost again on it's way back to the EoT) The Eighth Black Crusade - ? The Ninth Black Crusade - ? The Tenth Black Crusade - The Black Crusade floods out on the opposite side of the Eye to the Cadian Gate, attacking Helica and the capitol world, Thracian Primaris. The Chaos assault is fatally delayed when the Iron Warriors attack the Iron Hands on Medusa. But wait, what happened in Storm of Iron exactly? ^_^ The Eleventh Black Crusade - ? The Twelfth Black Crusade - the forces of Abaddon raided the planets of Purgatory and Ornsworld, capturing two alien artefacts known as the 'Hand of Darkness' and the 'Eye of Night'. The Thirteenth Black Crusade - Abaddon's crusade results in the EoT expanding. Among his other accomplishments is building the planetkiller, securing loyalties of various Legion remnants and capturing the Talismans of Vaul. As for the hate towards Horus, he was the prodigal one, the true Warmaster, and he failed. There's no place for failure in the hearts of the Traitor Legionaries (or in the eyes of the Gods) and I can imagine that newer renegade chapters may easily dismiss him as just a footnote in history or a bygone visionary. Edit: Abaddon's hate towards Horus could stem from the fact that he was let down time and time again by a person who'd taken on the role of his 'Father'/mentor. Decrying Horus as a fool is also an efficient way of turning the loyalty of the veterans of old, towards himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Theres no denying Abaddon is a decent chaos commander, BUT he was nowhere near as good as Horus, and still while his resume is ok, 13 black crusades doing little more than piecemeal damage to small areas of space, surely if he was a tactical genious much of the segmentum would be in ashes...no?? GC08 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Except his tactics in the first crusades were lacking, it's only more recently that he's become a real threat (the Gothic War and the 13th Crusade especially). Remember, GW has said many times that each world destroyed is a world that can never be replaced. And if memory serves, Abaddon has wrecked many a planet already. There's a few points that ties in with his successes (and lack thereof), -the Imperium is vast and so is it's armies. -despite the scale of the area around the EoT, Abaddon's angles of attack are limited. A frontal assault will never work. -the residents of the Eye are often at war with each other, it takes an enormous effort to gather manpower for a Crusade. -he has succeeded in more than just doing piecemeal damage, if you haven't read about the Gothic War, I suggest that you do - it shows that he's learned from his mistakes. :P -almost each crusade has made the next one more likely to happen. Ever since the first Crusade the following ones have been escalating, in terms of outright destruction, as well as being tied in with long-term plans to accomplish other goals (eg. the building of the Planetkiller). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 I bow to your knowledge and not one to hide behind ignorance ill try and read some material on it, can you recomend any BL books, my friend has about a hundred, so i can probably get hold of the right ones?? GC08 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPetersson Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 The Thirteenth Black Crusade - Abaddon's crusade results in the EoT expanding. Wait, what? I was under the impression that the EoT expanded by itself and that's why Ulthwé is doomed because it can't get away quickly enough... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 The Thirteenth Black Crusade - Abaddon's crusade results in the EoT expanding. Wait, what? I was under the impression that the EoT expanded by itself and that's why Ulthwé is doomed because it can't get away quickly enough... I thought it was directly related to the strenght of the chaos gods....isnt it?, GC08 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnus Thane Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Well as a BL follower in defense of the Warmaster: 1) They don't seem to have a better one to lead at the moment. Only Abaddon has the mixture of charisma, ambition, talent, divine favor and cunning to pull of a Black Crusade 2) Many of Abby's plans are longterm (conveniently) and ironically due to the slow pace the fluff universe advances hard to end up realized (conveniently) 3) The fact Abby 'failed' to grab large chunks seems normal given what he has to eat his way through. Each Black Crusade seems bent on weakening the armor that withstands Chaos. New things are conquered, destroyed or items obtained. It's a longterm project it seems. Time seems on the side of Abby and the Legions/Warbands. Which is kind of logical given the nature of the Warp. 4) Horus would of course be greater than Abaddon. Abaddon always came across as adoring his Warmaster. It seems to me he denounced him out of necessity not spite. The Sons of Horus were demoralized, battered and they held onto the shadow of their dead Warmaster. Not to mention there was the cloning of Horus thing. Given the situation it seems a good move of Abaddon. Not to mention it gave me the awesome black and gold colorscheme for my Marines :P Abaddon like Horus are perhaps not the best strategist. It's kinda like history and military history (i'm a historian by education) You can debate plenty about who was history's best tactician, strategiest, siege expert, statesman,... . But what Abby has and Horus before him... is polyvalence. He remins me of a twisted Caesar or Napoleon. And that is what Chaos needs at the top. Someone with a good mix of abilities. Some of the still living Primarchs far surpass Abby in certain fields. But it's the whole that matters. But in the end... it's like Darth Vader's annoying defeat and the Empires rapid shattering/decline in Star Wars. Deus Ex Machina and bending reality/believability for the sake of plot and letting the good guys win/keep on going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 I bow to your knowledge and not one to hide behind ignorance ill try and read some material on it, can you recomend any BL books, my friend has about a hundred, so i can probably get hold of the right ones?? GC08 It wasn't meant like that :tu: , I've just recently read up on the Gothic War and I must say, compared to the initial: "duhr, there be an imperial fortress, charge, duhrr!" - Abaddon's grasp of strategy in the Gothic War is quite impressive. ;) As for recommended reading, you should try and give Execution Hour a spin. There's also the BFG ruleset (which is free to download via specialist games I believe). The Thirteenth Black Crusade - Abaddon's crusade results in the EoT expanding. Wait, what? I was under the impression that the EoT expanded by itself and that's why Ulthwé is doomed because it can't get away quickly enough... I thought it was directly related to the strenght of the chaos gods....isnt it?, GC08 Possibly, I do believe that the expansion during the 13th was tied to something else though. I'll go fluff hunting when I get home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 As for recommended reading, you should try and give Execution Hour a spin. There's also the BFG ruleset (which is free to download via specialist games I believe). :tu: i actually play BFG chaos, but havent done much reading up, i generally dont use them very often, so when i do play i only look at the rules.... GC08 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 well my 2 cents . most of the mortal followers of chaos , a lot of them who fell to chaos before their primarchs saw their "fathers" as fools and had little "love" or respect for them . Tyfus thinks that about Mortyrion. Ahriman openlly rebelled against magnus . same with abadon and horus . only before the horus heresy books it was more like open hatred "he failed and he was weak"etc now we see abadon durning the siege question the whole idea of a planet fall . why not use exterminatus on terra and all loyalists will just die after the planet breaks apart? he questions horus view on honor [even if its twisted] and his need for worthy opponent . thats why he calls his "father" a fool. but of course that doesnt stop him to start the huge Legion wars that break up the WE and EC and almost destroy the BL , just to stop EC from producing more horus clones[or at least thats how it was shown in the old fluff]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Wait, what? I was under the impression that the EoT expanded by itself and that's why Ulthwé is doomed because it can't get away quickly enough... Ulthwé isn't necessarily doomed, Althansar was lost to the EoT during the Fall, yet it got out during the 13th Black Crusade, the only side effects on the Althansar Eldar being reclusiveness and pale skin (by Eldar standards). I think a fair bit of the Horus-hate comes from the fact he had no Plan B during the Heresy. Thus, when little things start going wrong, Horus tries to correct the situation with small changes, small problems become big problems, small changes in plan become big changes, and suddenly the DA and SWs are on their way and there's nothing for it but to lower the shields. Horus effectively lost the initiative by assuming only a 'cut off the head and the body will die' approach would work. Abaddon has worked round that by going for the cumulative effect to wear the Imperium down, and cannot see why Horus let the initiative go, hence "He had the whole galaxy in his grasp and he let it slip". Part of me thinks that any resentment of Horus is simply an after-echo of his betraying the Emperor - he felt the Emperor had abandoned them, let them down, so he betrayed him. Then Horus takes over the mentor figure, and when he dies at Terra he lets Abaddon down too. Hence the anger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DracoDarco Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Last time i checked any primarch is greater than a mere space marine, blessed by chaos or not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duodecimo Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Not that the other CSMs know this, but there's always the Acuity from Legion (spoiler). Horus was noble at heart, and after killing the Emperor, the minute he realises what he is doing he tries to stop it by dragging the entire human race into destruction (this is backed up by Horus Heresy: Collected Visions, in which Horus repents and asks the Emperor to kill him when the Chaos gods withdraw from his body). This would seem to indicate that Horus=not really the best "man" for the job. Also remember, Abaddon isn't doing too terribly, the Acuity says Chaos will rule within 20k years of the Heresy's end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Butcher Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 As for recommended reading, you should try and give Execution Hour a spin. There's also the BFG ruleset (which is free to download via specialist games I believe). ;) i actually play BFG chaos, but havent done much reading up, i generally dont use them very often, so when i do play i only look at the rules.... GC08 I think the bits you'll need are in the downloads called 'Armada Appendices' some great (free) reading in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucifer Fellblade Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 The majority of Abaddon's hate does seem to have come from necessity to remain in control of the forces of the Chaos Legions, after the Heresy Abaddon kept Horus' corpse stored in status at a temple in the Eye of Terror, presumedly to honour/revere him, it was only when another force attempted to clone Horus from his dead body when Abaddon was forced to destroy the body. I think it's a fair assumption to assume that this was the moment Abaddon changed tact in order to guarantee his control of the remaining Legions and remain a serious threat to the Imperium. Also remember, Abaddon isn't doing too terribly, the Acuity says Chaos will rule within 20k years of the Heresy's end. I'd say that this assumption is a little off, the Acuity only granted the visions of Alpha Legion joining Horus and winning, or not joining and him losing, it didn't clarify what would happen if they did join him and he still lost. Something that seems to be the case in every time travelling story is that the smallest change can cause a big difference, and since niether of the Acuitys 'conditions' were met (unless the Alpha Legion only pretended to join Horus and did side with the Emperor after all, as has been speculated many a time) I would say that it's prophecies are null and void in the current timeline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lay Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 the Acuity only granted the visions of Alpha Legion joining Horus and winning, or not joining and him losing, it didn't clarify what would happen if they did join him and he still lost. It was just about Horus winning or losing. The Alpha Legion did not appear in the vision. The Cabal even tried to recruit the older Legions for the same task. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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