The Great Sanguini Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 I've been playing Salamanders ever since the new codex, but one army which has caused me no end of trouble has always been the Nurgle Daemons. Tonight I had a rough game, and was yet again unable to pull a victory. Is there any way to tweak my list to better combat "Hard" armies like Nurgle Daemons and Nob Bikers, without losing its effectiveness against "soft" armies like MEQs, Orks, and GEQs? My list HQ 190 Vulkan He'Stan w. lots ELITES 200 Assault Terminator Squad(5) w. Thunderhammers 200 Assault Terminator Squad(5) w. Thunderhammers 185 Ironclad Dreadnaught w. Heavy Flamer-Seismic Hammer, Heavy Flamer-DCCW -Drop Pod w. Storm Bolter TROOPS 220 Tactical Squad(10) w. Flamer, Multimelta, Combiflamer -Razorback w. TL Heavy Bolter 215 Tactical Squad(10) w. Flamer, Multimelta, Combiflamer -Rhino w. Storm Bolter 215 Tactical Squad(10) w. Flamer, Multimelta, Combiflamer -Rhino w. Storm Bolter 170 Tactical Squad(10) w. Flamer, Multimelta HEAVY SUPPORT 85 Whirlwind w. Searchlight, Smoke Launchers 85 Whirlwind w. Searchlight, Smoke Launchers 85 Whirlwind w. Searchlight, Smoke Launchers 1850 total His List (unfortunately I don't know the aboslute specifics about his) HQ Epidemius (special character tallyman) Ku'Gath (special character OMGPWN thrower) TROOPS Plaguebearers(20) w.Chaos Icon Plaguebearers(20) w.Chaos Icon Plaguebearers(20) w.Chaos Icon Plaguebearers(20) w.Chaos Icon Nurgling Swarms(6) ELITES Beasts of Nurgle(6) HEAVY SUPPORT Daemon Prince w. Mark of Nurgle, Breath of Chaos, Ironhide Daemon Prince w. Mark of Nurgle, Breath of Chaos, Ironhide The game was essentially me taking down 1/4 of his army at the beginning, before he tallied up 9 kills from Ku'Gath and Daemon Prince's armor/cover ignoring 4+ wounding template weapons. After that point, I barely kept up to him as his army continued getting better and better. By the end, I had all of my vehicles left alive, but not a single marine. He still had about 14 plaguebearers, 3 beasts of nurgle, Ku'Gath(2 wounds left), and a single nurgling base left. How can I even up the odds against armies like this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyescrossed Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Sorry for the off topic post, but it's illegal to have 21 PB's in 1 squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Great Sanguini Posted February 1, 2009 Author Share Posted February 1, 2009 Well, that's how many he said were in the squad accompanying Epidemius. Probably just misheard it and he meant that the squad was 21 big including Epidemius. Regardless, is there anything that I can do to tweak my salamanders for use against Harder stuff, without losing its basic shape? I really enjoy the mech/burn style of it but it seems that against incredibly tough armies like this it just can't survive, because it relies on taking out close targets quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyescrossed Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Vindicators mulch Nurgle Daemons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Anything that ignores armour saves, not getting FnP is a serious blow to Nurgle daemons. Focus all your fire on the princes as fast as possible, without them it's near impossible to get the tally up. It might be worth looking in to taking scouts with Telion and an allied vindicare assassin, use them both to try and take out Epidemius, without him the tally has no effect. If you want to be a complete arse and lose a friend, use the allied inquisitor lord you have to take to make a "sanctuary bubble", basically this involves taking an inquisitor lord with the sanctuary psychic power, two mystics, and three gun servitors. As long as santuary is active daemons can't move close to or see the inquisitor, the mystics give you free shots against deepstriking daemons, and the three gun servitors destroy daemons with quantity of fire, it's also a good idea to take a plasma cannon on one of those servitors to ignore FnP. However, I would NOT advise taking this in an even remotely friendly game, or unless he takes three winged princes with noxious touch. Overall I think the vindicare/Telion combo is your best bet. If you're playing objectives, take an objective, hold at all costs and contest the rest, he's slow, so you should be able to hold at least one objective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Great Sanguini Posted February 1, 2009 Author Share Posted February 1, 2009 Good ideas for tailoring my list Malachi. I agree that if I were to tailor to fight Daemons instead of anything else they don't stand a chance. Replacing a whirlwind with a vindicator probably isn't a bad idea, and it still allows me to stay as a take all comers list. Do you think that change alone will be enough to even the odds against these monstrosities? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Adding a vindicare, some scouts and an inquisitor lord isn't tailoring your list for daemons, the santuary bit would be, but like I said, I don't really recommend that. My list always includes some allies from the DH 'dex. A vindi would help, but one of them won't make a huge difference, two would probably make a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 HQ190 Vulkan He'Stan w. lots ELITES 200 Assault Terminator Squad(5) w. Thunderhammers 200 Assault Terminator Squad(5) w. Thunderhammers This is all fine. They'll munch his Troops and even the MC's pretty easily. 185 Ironclad Dreadnaught w. Heavy Flamer-Seismic Hammer, Heavy Flamer-DCCW-Drop Pod w. Storm Bolter There is no point counter-Deepstriking against Daemons. The best policy is to castle up with good firelines, and let him come to you. I would replace the Dreadnought with this; Inquisitor, psycannon 2 x heavy bolter servitors, plasma cannon servitor 2 x Sages, 2 x Mystics (177 points) That gets you a twin-linked plasma cannon shot, some good S5/6 for overloading Princes with, and the Mystics make a fantastic force-multiplier. Stick them in amongst your plasma cannon Combat squads and rain hell into his Troops. TROOPS220 Tactical Squad(10) w. Flamer, Multimelta, Combiflamer -Razorback w. TL Heavy Bolter 215 Tactical Squad(10) w. Flamer, Multimelta, Combiflamer -Rhino w. Storm Bolter 215 Tactical Squad(10) w. Flamer, Multimelta, Combiflamer -Rhino w. Storm Bolter 170 Tactical Squad(10) w. Flamer, Multimelta Drop the multi-meltas (they're craptastic anyway) for plasma cannons. Combat squad them so the plasma cannon+4 chumps sit back in a gun-line, while the Sergeant+flamers go in the Rhino. This doesn't really compromise you against other armies, as the plasma cannon is an excellent anti-infantry gun, and you still have flamers for hurting hordes. HEAVY SUPPORT85 Whirlwind w. Searchlight, Smoke Launchers 85 Whirlwind w. Searchlight, Smoke Launchers 85 Whirlwind w. Searchlight, Smoke Launchers Drop the Whirlwinds, replace them with Vindicators. Set up the Vindicators near your Inquisitor firebase (so they can benefit from the Mystics) and shell the hell out of incoming infantry. HQEpidemius (special character tallyman) Ku'Gath (special character OMGPWN thrower) Epidemius will be attached to a Plagubearer unit. Isolate which one it is, then shell the living crap out of it. Once he's down, the rest of the army can't benefit from the Tally. Ku-Gath will require the attentions of your assault Terminators. He's slow as hell though, and provided you're in good cover (use your tanks, he can't hurt them with his Nurgling throws, as it has no Strength value), you can weather his shots and ignore him for a turn or two, at least until the Princes are dead. TROOPSPlaguebearers(20) w.Chaos Icon Plaguebearers(20) w.Chaos Icon Plaguebearers(20) w.Chaos Icon Plaguebearers(20) w.Chaos Icon Nurgling Swarms(6) Yeah, introduce them to Vindicator shells when they land, thanks to the Mystics. Follow up with plasma cannon from your Combat squads. Isolate the one containing Epidemius and concentrate fire. You can largely ignore the other units, they're slow as hell and only really useful for camping objectives/tarpitting your Terminators. Ignore the Nurglings, plasma cannon them if they threaten to get too close (assuming you didn't already shell then with a Vindicator, using the Mystics). ELITESBeasts of Nurgle(6) :D What an idiot. Easily the worst unit in the entire codex. Mystic shoot them, ignore them unless they get close (like all Nurgle units they're slow as hell though). HEAVY SUPPORTDaemon Prince w. Mark of Nurgle, Breath of Chaos, Ironhide Daemon Prince w. Mark of Nurgle, Breath of Chaos, Ironhide Whatever isn't shooting up the Epidemius unit should be shelling these chumps. Once you've softened them up with plasma cannon and Vindicator, charge in the Terminators. Watch his jaw drop when his Breath rebounds off their 3+ invul, then they shrug off his attacks in close-combat and eat him alive with thunderhammer to the face. Beating Daemon armies just requires good target selection, a bit of Mystic support and castling. They can't do anything to counter these tactics, because they have to Deepstrike, and they're primarily assault-orientated. For deployment, use the Rhinos and Vindicators to form a wall around your firebase. If you time it right, you'll be able to drive the Rhinos to the side, to allow your Terminators to counter-assault the Daemon Princes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyescrossed Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 ELITESBeasts of Nurgle(6) :D What an idiot. Easily the worst unit in the entire codex. That is a lie. You obviously haven't been charged by 6 when the tally's full. 22 wounding on 2+, ignoring armour save attacks on average, with rerolls to wound if the enemy is T4 or under? They're not the worst unit in the codex, well, maybe if there's no Epidemius, but that's the whole point - we Daemon players WANT you to think they're crap, so you ignore them until it's too late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Great Sanguini Posted February 3, 2009 Author Share Posted February 3, 2009 Reclusiarch Darius... I'm not entirely sure how to respond to your post. While retaining as much tact as I can, I still must state that you come across as incredibly self-assured in your position, despite being for the greater part ignorant of what was asked and even what you're advising. As stated in my most previous post, if I were to tailor a list specifically for the purpose of fighting Daemons, they would not stand a chance. No list would. This is not about tailoring for a specific oponent, but preparing a better "take all comers" list, one that can handle Hard and Soft armies equally well. The Ironclad dreadnought stays, no matter what. It has proven itself against hard and soft armies, and aside from the assault terminators caused the most damage to his entire list (destroying an entire 20 man plaguebearer squad on his own, and tieing it up to stop it from charging my tacs). I never would have imagined any person picking on this as a weak unit. Deepstriking against Daemons is inefficient, but against everyone else it's the dreadnought's greatest bonus. If another elites slot is truly needed, the two terminator squads can be forced into one slot and combat squadded. I've yet to find another elites choice aside from another dreadnought which would be worth the points overall though. Vindicare assassins I have tried in four games because of Captain Malachi's advice, but I do not seem to be netting the same results as him, as it seems to be far too unreliable for the cost. The removal of the Multi-Meltas does nothing to help my list in a take all comers situation, but instead reduces 90% of my anti-tank capacity as well as wasting Vulkan's upgrade. Multi-meltas are far from "craptastic"... especially in favour of Plasma Cannons which are the biggest underdog in the new codex due to their enormous price tag and small blast template which in the best of times will hit 2/3 models. If I were to replace every whirlwind with a vindicator, I agree it would help vs. Hard targets even if at the expense of soft ones. How would I reduce points elsewhere in my list to fit in this extra 90pts of tank though? Beasts of Nurgle are far from bad. They are essentially 2.25 plaguebearers in a single model, making the unit less vulnerable to blasts but no less effective in any way. Again, this does not help your credibility. Your idea of beating down daemons is knowing in advance everything that he has, and then replacing your entire list to suit. In most respectable gaming communities, this is entirley and wholly unacceptable at mine. Perhaps its my fault for using Daemons as an example of a 'Hard' army my list has trouble with. Perhaps I should have stated nob bikers, or even nothing at all. Still I find it difficult to understand where a post like yours comes from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 That is a lie.You obviously haven't been charged by 6 when the tally's full. 22 wounding on 2+, ignoring armour save attacks on average, with rerolls to wound if the enemy is T4 or under? They're not the worst unit in the codex, well, maybe if there's no Epidemius, but that's the whole point - we Daemon players WANT you to think they're crap, so you ignore them until it's too late. I dunno, the Furies kinda take the cake for 'most useless unit', but Beasts of Nurgle are way down there. They're slow, unreliable and overpriced for what they do. I'd take Tzeentchian Flamers or Bloodcrushers over them any day. You cannot rely on the Tally. It's awesome fun and brutal at full power, but all it takes is a bit of concentrated fire (to take out Epidemius and/or your Nurgle Princes, which are doing the hard work of building up the Tally), and you're game plan falls apart. Nurgle Princes end up being a much better investment; they may not have FNP, but they can start causing mass death from Turn 2 (Turn 1 if they land close enough to Breath something), and their effectiveness isn't reliant on the Tally. Reclusiarch Darius... I'm not entirely sure how to respond to your post. While retaining as much tact as I can, I still must state that you come across as incredibly self-assured in your position, despite being for the greater part ignorant of what was asked and even what you're advising. As stated in my most previous post, if I were to tailor a list specifically for the purpose of fighting Daemons, they would not stand a chance. No list would. This is not about tailoring for a specific oponent, but preparing a better "take all comers" list, one that can handle Hard and Soft armies equally well. The title of this thread is 'fighting Nurgle Daemons'. I assumed you wanted advice about how to tweak your list to fight them. I don't agree with your assertion that an anti-Daemon list would automatically fail against 'normal' armies. You're army is a good example this; it is pretty well balanced and contains a good mix of units, but with some further tweaking it can be better against Daemons. It would still retain much of it's effectiveness against other armies (and in fact I think you'll find the anti-DS abilities of the Mystics come in handy against many other armies, not least of which Chaos Marines). In any case, I did try to stay within the bounds of 'take all comers', hence my suggestion to hang onto the flamers and combi-flamers (despite they fact they're near-useless against an entire army of T5+ and mostly FNP models). They may suck against Nurgle, but they'll be really useful against Orks and Tyranids, and for assaulting Guardsman/Tau. The Ironclad dreadnought stays, no matter what. It has proven itself against hard and soft armies, and aside from the assault terminators caused the most damage to his entire list (destroying an entire 20 man plaguebearer squad on his own, and tieing it up to stop it from charging my tacs). I never would have imagined any person picking on this as a weak unit. Deepstriking against Daemons is inefficient, but against everyone else it's the dreadnought's greatest bonus. Well, ok then. I needed to find points for the Mystics, so I chose to drop him (because he's less effective than a squad of Assault Terminators). If you do want Mystic support in Elite you'll need to drop something, otherwise you'll have to bite the bullet and take an Inquisitor Lord. He does get a 3+ armour save, higher Leadership and 'Iron Will', so it's worth the upgrade; however, you will need to drop something to squeeze him in. If another elites slot is truly needed, the two terminator squads can be forced into one slot and combat squadded. I've yet to find another elites choice aside from another dreadnought which would be worth the points overall though. Vindicare assassins I have tried in four games because of Captain Malachi's advice, but I do not seem to be netting the same results as him, as it seems to be far too unreliable for the cost. I didn't suggest a Vindicare, and I would heartily recommend you never field him. He's a pretty model, and I wish he worked, but he's total fail against most armies. Inquisitor+Mystics is a much better buy. The removal of the Multi-Meltas does nothing to help my list in a take all comers situation, but instead reduces 90% of my anti-tank capacity as well as wasting Vulkan's upgrade. Multi-meltas are far from "craptastic"... especially in favour of Plasma Cannons which are the biggest underdog in the new codex due to their enormous price tag and small blast template which in the best of times will hit 2/3 models. Multi-meltas don't work on Tacticals or Devastators. They only work on mobile platforms like Landspeeders and Attack Bikes (Landraiders can get them cheap as well, and it works great with Machine Spirit). I know it's very fluffy and makes use of the twin-linked bonus from Vulcan, but you're wasting the potential fire support of the Tactical squads. Especially against an army like Nurgle, where he's spamming Plaguebearers like crazy. You badly need more AP2; even with Mystic support you're facing down 80 T5 models with FNP. Vulcan still gives you twin-linked flamers and master-crafted thunderhammers, so he is still worth taking. Plasma cannons are a 5pt upgrade to your Tactical squads. It does add up, but you won't be wasting your time chasing enemy tanks that you'll never reach, or doing virtually nothing to Nurgle Daemons. If I were to replace every whirlwind with a vindicator, I agree it would help vs. Hard targets even if at the expense of soft ones. How would I reduce points elsewhere in my list to fit in this extra 90pts of tank though? Not really. Whirlwinds can ignore cover saves (which beats armies like Tyranids and Orks, not to mention IG gun-lines) and have greater reach, but S10 AP2 to the face also does the trick pretty well. You do need to be more tactical with Vindicators against non-Daemons (you can't just park them in the far corner and safely shell the enemy), but against Nurgle Daemons they already solve many problems for you, just being the army they are; Range: Daemons like to land at point-blank range so they get maximum shooting done, followed up by an assault in Turn 2. They'll come to you, just sit back and shell them Resiliance: The spam list you're facing has zero ranged anti-tank (although thats not unusual for Daemons, Tzeentch has cornered that part of the army pretty well), and in close-combat they are relying on Ku'Gath and the Princes to tear your tanks apart. This can be easily countered by positioning your Assault Terminators to shield your tanks from assault; force him to wade though thunderhammers and 3+ invul. Suitability: Vindicators are not really good at blowing up tanks, direct hits are hard to pull off well. However, infantry of all descriptions hate S10 AP2, and Monstrous Creatures don't like getting their wounds chipped away by shrapnel either. His list is based around infantry, Vindicators eat infantry. Beasts of Nurgle are far from bad. They are essentially 2.25 plaguebearers in a single model, making the unit less vulnerable to blasts but no less effective in any way. Again, this does not help your credibility. Read their statline. Don't add Tally, because thats an external factor. Their statline is terrible, and their close-combat ability is laughable. He's wasting points on them, which is surprising considering he's made a pretty good list overall (insane amounts of Plagubearers, Daemon Prince support, Ku'Gath is a decent Greater Daemon). If he were smarter he'd take a third Daemon Prince, as that would really overload your heavy weapons and Terminators. The Beasts are just another target/tarpit for you to deal with Your idea of beating down daemons is knowing in advance everything that he has, and then replacing your entire list to suit. In most respectable gaming communities, this is entirley and wholly unacceptable at mine. Perhaps its my fault for using Daemons as an example of a 'Hard' army my list has trouble with. Perhaps I should have stated nob bikers, or even nothing at all. Still I find it difficult to understand where a post like yours comes from. You asked for help against Nurgle Daemons (a very specific build of Nurgle Daemons). I made a few suggestions and tweaks that would help you out. I did not recommend you use a Grey Knights army or something like that. I made suggestions which would keep in sync with your current army list (and not compromise it's 'take all comers' nature), but which would make the army effective against Nurgle Daemons. You don't have to take my advice, but I would ask that you clearly express yourself, and not misrepresent others when responding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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