daemon*hunter Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 Now you all have had plenty of time to stop whining about loyalists new toys, and get used to battleing them do people still think there overpowered? i think this would be interesting to know, also how do you people deal with them? anything you lot still think is overpowered/unbalanced? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 anything you lot still think is overpowered/unbalanced? Things that annoy me personally. 1) Relic Blades, seems a little overpowered, comparing this to Daemon Weapons its trades +1/2 Strength vs +D6 attacks. Factor in the 0% chance to hurt yourself and being 10 points cheaper, and it seems like a better deal. 2) Super Land Raiders, I'd like to have some of the options that Loyalists have. Honestly I'd most prefer the 12 transport slots, I'd be fine with everything else. 3) Why is the Predator 10 points cheaper than ours? Just curious how they justify it fluff-wise. 4) I wish we had useful Dreadnoughts. Even just 1, that would be nice. I guess we have Defilers to keep us happy instead. Thats all really, a few minor whines and complaints, but overall I think they're fine, accomplish the same things through different methods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigrinus Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 Why is the Predator 10 points cheaper than ours? Just curious how they justify it fluff-wise. The only justification I can think of is that the Preds available to CSMs are rarer, as Chaos doesn't seem to have the manufacturing potential of the Imperium. That's all I can come with! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 Tac marine heavy armies are usually cake. Sternguard however is very easy to play and win with from what i've seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roultox Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 We get havoc launchers on our predators and they dont get to have Machine Spirit or Pintle-Multi-Meltas on their predators. Also our 'havocs' are superior in melee, and are not forced to take a champion points-sink. If you prefer plasma cannons, be prepared to pay 15 points more and have no icons and 1 attack per model in melee combat with 1 less leadership value all around (compared to champ). Icons like tzeentch make ours way over the top, and our havocs can pack plasma/melta/flamer gunners instead for many purposeful loadouts. Chaos: Havocs Loyalists: Predator Tradeoff? A little. Our dreadnoughts bolster something chaos already excels at. Ground pounding mobile firepower, and if used right or just lucky it could ram the loyalist with two dreadnoughts worth in firepower or melee. So a chance our dread counts as (2) dreads, plus the benefits are a bit nasty when tactics are bent to accomodate them. Our predator also has dirge caster, for cheap. The dirge ram and run cheapy autocannon predator has proven itself in games I've played. (Honestly, they spearhead my rhinos in and do as much damage as the marines following it!) -1 LD on a tank shock does more then you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 well depending what you play its still easier to make a weak sm army , then a chaos army . when not counting some specific builds , even the basic chaos armies are superior to the sm ones . The tac is a gunline unit and static armies sucks in the 5th , sure sm players they can combat squad , but the way breaking and hth/shoting wound allocation works right now 5 man squads just die or lose important parts too fast + they just get owned by LR rush armies , ork bikers etc . No serious player uses sm , unless its a non codex sm codex build with kantor or khan[whats so lol]. Sure stuff like bigger LR or drops pods is nice , but its only important to the undivided players [and those died out when new codex came] . LR use zerkers anyway so they have a spot for the HQ. and while our melta squads arent as precise as drop pod ones , ours are cheaper and we can run many more then the sm . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 Why is the Predator 10 points cheaper than ours? Just curious how they justify it fluff-wise. There is absolutely no fluff reason why the new Codex Space Marines drastically changed point costs and how certain items work. It was a restructuring of basic Marine rules, and had it been done before the current Codex Chaos (or DA and BA) would have been released, they would include a lot of the changes as well. The Predator is cheaper mainly because GW has lowered the point costs for "bolt" heavy weapons a bit. If you want to use the Anihilator variant loyalists will pay the same points as Chaos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daemon*hunter Posted February 20, 2009 Author Share Posted February 20, 2009 has anyone been up against a thundefire cannon? ive only seen one used once, and it didn't do that well they should have same costs for identical vehicles, or balance it out somewhere else! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 has anyone been up against a thundefire cannon? ive only seen one used once, and it didn't do that well I wouldn't be too worried about the Thunderfire unless I was Orks or Guardmen. On the plus side, we do get Obliterators probably the closest thing to a "I Win" button for Chaos due to its incredibly effectiveness and flexibility. I'm very happy with Chaos, I haven't had a big problem with the codex on the tabletop, just the fluff neutering. I also think the Loyalists are pretty good as well, they are built more as a shooting army than we are, but thats fine, gives some differences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Democratus Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 The thing that bothers me about the SM codex is that it is the Chaos codex. Many of the cool things that Chaos had which were taken away - were simply given to the new SMs. Dreadnoughts with AV13: Taken from chaos and given to SM in the form of Ironclads. Cult-specific armies with special rules: Taken from chaos and given to SM in the form of Characters (Salamanders, White Scars, etc.) The ability to cut through enemy invulnerable saves (dread axe): Taken and given to SM librarian. Other goodies like Drop Pod Assault (daemon bomb), Sternguard (tooled out Chosen), super terminators (daemonic gifts)...it was all moved from CSM to SM. I had thought they took away most of the Chaos goodies because they were overpowered for the game. Turns out that the SM just wanted to push Chaos over and take its toys. I don't find the SM codex overpowered in general. Though there are combinations of units/characters that can be very frightening if you haven't tooled your army to fight them. But I do find it to be the most "Chaosy" codex put out in years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spreader Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 The thing that bothers me about the SM codex is that it is the Chaos codex. Many of the cool things that Chaos had which were taken away - were simply given to the new SMs.SM just wanted to push Chaos over and take its toys. I don't find the SM codex overpowered in general. Though there are combinations of units/characters that can be very frightening if you haven't tooled your army to fight them. But I do find it to be the most "Chaosy" codex put out in years. Everything you just said sums up my undying rage for the new SM book. Overpowered? Not usually. Stole things from all other codexes just because they're marines? Absoloutely. Spits, pukes, kicks the new Chaos codex in the face? YES. Pure rage. Pure unbridled rage that I try to stuff into criticism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 Cult-specific armies with special rules: Taken from chaos and given to SM in the form of Characters Because the last Codex Space Marines did not have any army list altering rules...? The ability to cut through enemy invulnerable saves (dread axe): Taken and given to SM librarian. I believe Imperial Assassins had it first. Other goodies like Drop Pod Assault (daemon bomb) They had that since 3rd Edition. Sternguard (tooled out Chosen) Sternguard (Veterans with special ammunition) are not really compareable to chosen (tooled up with 2+ saves, strength 5, furious charge and powerweapons for everyone). super terminators (daemonic gifts) Huh? Dreadnoughts with AV13 Weell... yeah, maybe that. So they took the AV13 dreads from Chaos Marines and gave them to loyalist Marines... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 Because the last Codex Space Marines did not have any army list altering rules...? it had , just like the sm trait one . only now the csm one doesnt have ways to make different builds , while the sm does. thats the difference. Sternguard (Veterans with special ammunition) are not really compareable to chosen (tooled up with 2+ saves, strength 5, furious charge and powerweapons for everyone). yes , unlike chosen they can actually be made to work . specially as they are scoring. super terminators (daemonic gifts) Huh? assault terminators with +3inv in a LR with outflank thanks to khan . They had that since 3rd Edition. 3.5 as in the 3ed there was a scenario that let them make a planet fall scenario . also even if its true that in the 4th ed they had drop pods [but no GW legal drop pods] , if a csm chaos player wants to play a demon bomb like list , he has to switch armies . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 it had , just like the sm trait one . only now the csm one doesnt have ways to make different builds , while the sm does. thats the difference. So they did not take it from Chaos Marines and gave it to loyalists. yes , unlike chosen they can actually be made to work . specially as they are scoring. Not discussing the usefullness of flanking units of chosen with 4 powerweapons or special weapons, the point is they did not take it from Chaos and gave it to loyalists. assault terminators with +3inv in a LR with outflank thanks to khan . Stormshields have changed from 4++ to 3++, and flanking is a brand new thing, so they did not take anything from Chaos and gave it to loyalists. 3.5 as in the 3ed there was a scenario that let them make a planet fall scenario In the 3rd Edition Codex, Space Marines had the option in any mission that used the "Deep Strike" scenario rules to deploy any Space Marine unit in Power Armour, Terminators, Scouts, Dreadnoughts and Land Speeders as deep strikers via Drop Pods. See 3rd Edition Codex Space Marines page 5. No actual Drop Pod models were used, the unit's were simply deployed via deep strike rules. So they did not take anything from Chaos and gave it to loyalists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 I don't regard Codex Space Marines to be over powered at all, but rather it shows how poor the Chaos Codex is. It's not that it is uncompetetive, rather bland. As an example, Relic blades give the average ability of Captains (with their meagre amount of attacks) a killer streak. In a game of T4, the strength of a Captain was just inferior when armed with a power weapon and pistol, since the only other option was a powerfist that strikes last. However, Daemon Weapons are plain boring now, but they are definitely more powerful. The all do the same thing mostly, +D6 attacks... There is such scope there. Loyalist Terminators were dying out and nobody took them until the new edition made their cyclones useful again and Thunder Hammer and Storm shields desirable again. It was always Lightning claws on Assault Terminators. In comparison to Chaos Terminators, they still are pretty versatile and just as useful, and with Marks they are pretty tasty in close combat. So I think we can give GW that one. :D Sternguard are great, no denying their popularity, although I don't like them due to their cost personally. It fits Space Marines to have a poweful "Tactical" style unit that opponents are actually scared of. Chosen are definitely a little bland in comparison if you ask me. They need something fun added into the mix. Or just give them large amounts of options (like twin linked bolters or something) or give them WS & BS5, which would make them poweful in a different way to Sternguard. As it stands now Chosen are not popular and predictably used when they are. I could go on but I don't have the time to evaluate the whole Space Marines army list and compare it to Chaos. In summary, Chaos Space Marines are competetive and powerful, but woefully predictable in their application. I don't see many different armies out there for Chaos really, not in competetive environments anyway. They are supposed to be chaotic and unorthodox, yet the army list is 2 dimensional and lacks exotic variety IMHO. Let's not be jealous guys, as Space Marines needed assistance and got a Codex that lived (mostly) to the wish lists of the customer's of GW. Now we need that for other Codex books, like Chaos Space Marines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 Why is the Predator 10 points cheaper than ours? Just curious how they justify it fluff-wise. There is absolutely no fluff reason why the new Codex Space Marines drastically changed point costs and how certain items work. It was a restructuring of basic Marine rules, and had it been done before the current Codex Chaos (or DA and BA) would have been released, they would include a lot of the changes as well. The Predator is cheaper mainly because GW has lowered the point costs for "bolt" heavy weapons a bit. If you want to use the Anihilator variant loyalists will pay the same points as Chaos. CSM preds are priced for 4th edition where they could move and fire heavy bolters. Loyalist ones are priced for 5th where they can't, so they are cheaper. Now my theory is that they should actually be even cheaper than loyalist ones now, but that they didn't make them that much cheaper to avoid too much of a discrepency between loyalist ones and chaos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 I love the new loyalist book, and hope that when Chaos are next revisited they get the same treatment. While it's hard not to feel a pang of jealousy, my primary response to the last couple codeces, especially the loyalist one, was relief that the days of codex minimalism are over, at least for now. Special characters, rules, units, and gear are what make designing and playing the game fun to me. Without them I'd rather do something else (and indeed have been doing something else with progressively more of my free time since the 4e chaos 'dex was released). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CelestialSon Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 Well, the way i look at it is that CSM don't have the same fancy footwork loyalists have. There's no drop pods, no indirect fire, no fast vehicles, no variable ammo types. Even librarians and sorcs reflect this. There's alot more you can do with librarians than sorcs, but sorcs are pretty much made for killing stuff only. That's the thing with CSMs, there's nothing pretty about how they win. Most CSM stuff by comparison to loyalist versions tend to be cheaper, more durable, and have more attacks. The point about havoks has been pointed out nicely, but also think of the wild advantage daemonic possession is on either a vindicator or land raider. Most CSM weapons and abilities are short ranged because you're going to end up winning your games based on what happens on the turns deploying from rhinos, assualt, or deep strike and fire at short range. CSMs tend to slug it out to win, relying more on their ability to bring redudancy to the battlefield. Raptors, CSM squads, bikes, terminators, chosen, all have above average CC ability, and when added together, can do what a single loyalist ubber unit like assault terminators can't. Redundancy also comes from having the option to take multiple assualt weapons in a squad. Sure, it's great to have a combi flamer in a tactical squad, but it's better to have a combi flamer in a CSM squad with more attacks and either two meltaguns or flamers. Last but not least, i adore icons. Icon of chaos glory may not be Combat Tactics, but it goes a long way to have a choice in 5 icons, whether or not i use all of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 So they did not take it from Chaos Marines and gave it to loyalists. they did , the traits came in to existance because of stuff chaos could take and the large number of people that wanted to play non-codex armies without playing named chapters or chaos . Not discussing the usefullness of flanking units of chosen with 4 powerweapons or special weapons, the point is they did not take it from Chaos and gave it to loyalists. you mean the 5th ed dex time in the 4th ed for chaos , then. I ment the 4th codex . chosen terminators were unplayable out of chaos for the whole 4th ed . also 4power weapons or not people even in the 4th ed used termicide squads because they were even better then now [scoring for example] . Stormshields have changed from 4++ to 3++, and flanking is a brand new thing, so they did not take anything from Chaos and gave it to loyalists. Ok I didnt use chaos terminators or chosen out of the 4th ed dex , but there were people that did . They had tons of options . Right now chosen are a bland unit that makes no sense to play when non scoring and due to rules changes cant be even fitted in to an army smaller then 1850 pts [and even then it doesnt work very good] . now loyalist assault termis got a huge boost . sure they also got nerfted on the AC side that probablly hurts more then the gains at least for the codex players. also to what rules are we sticking here ?new chaos and sm in the 4th or both in the 5th . old chaos dex etc because here you say that outflank is a new thing and two anwsers up you dont want to talk about usefullness of chosen with outflank ? In the 3rd Edition Codex, Space Marines had the option in any mission that used the "Deep Strike" scenario rules to deploy any Space Marine unit in Power Armour, Terminators, Scouts, Dreadnoughts and Land Speeders as deep strikers via Drop Pods. See 3rd Edition Codex Space Marines page 5. No actual Drop Pod models were used, the unit's were simply deployed via deep strike rules. what was banned in most tournaments , as was the planet fall scenario . plus 3ed was the rhino rush era , no used drop pods till the 3.5 ed came and drop pods started to block LoS [and the rhino nerf]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CelestialSon Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 It's funny to see people still going on about the last chaos codex. It's gone, get over it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 they did , the traits came in to existance because of stuff chaos could take and the large number of people that wanted to play non-codex armies without playing named chapters or chaos . I doubt that. Just like the 3.5 Chaos Codex got special rules for different Legions to replace the previous Legion rules from the Index Astartes articles, so did the Space Marines got rules for different Chapters to replace the previous Chapter rules from the Index Astartes articles. This was not anything that was inspired by Chaos and subsequently given to loyalists. you mean the 5th ed dex time in the 4th ed for chaos , then. I ment the 4th codex . chosen terminators were unplayable out of chaos for the whole 4th ed . also 4power weapons or not people even in the 4th ed used termicide squads because they were even better then now [scoring for example] . I am saying Sternguard Veterans are not really compareable to either 3.5 nor 5th Ed Chosen. I am also saying that both versions of Chosen have their use, though I think the current Chosen should have 2 attacks at a higher point cost (as veterans and champions usually do), but I suppose they can get that via the Mark of Khorne. Ok I didnt use chaos terminators or chosen out of the 4th ed dex , but there were people that did . They had tons of options . Right now chosen are a bland unit that makes no sense to play when non scoring and due to rules changes cant be even fitted in to an army smaller then 1850 pts [and even then it doesnt work very good] . now loyalist assault termis got a huge boost . sure they also got nerfted on the AC side that probablly hurts more then the gains at least for the codex players. also to what rules are we sticking here ?new chaos and sm in the 4th or both in the 5th . old chaos dex etc because here you say that outflank is a new thing and two anwsers up you dont want to talk about usefullness of chosen with outflank ? The point I was making was that Assault Terminators are not inspired by a rule that Chaos marines previously had. That aside, I do not understand the obsession with scoring units. Terminators and Veterans are still very potent units, without th eability to score. Do you need more than 3-4 scoring full tactical squads in your average game? 1/3 of the missions have exactly two mission objectives. 1/3 of the missions do not use objectives at all. Only the remaining 1/3 has more mission objectives, and even then you can win by anihilating the enemy. You have got maybe 3 scoring CSM squads, the enemy has 3 Tactical suqads and 2 scout squads. If he still has them at the end of the game you were indeed not very successful, but that was most likely not due to a lack of scoring units. what was banned in most tournaments , as was the planet fall scenario . plus 3ed was the rhino rush era , no used drop pods till the 3.5 ed came and drop pods started to block LoS [and the rhino nerf]. I don't usually concern myself with specific tournament rules. My point stands, that deep striking Space Marine units were not inspired by any Chaos rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 I'd like to split the SM codex in 2 parts, with and without special characters. Note: I play/played SM myself. 1. Marines without Special Characters -I think its a rather weak codex. And you know why? Cause of the rahter weak HQ's and really weak troops choices. Indeed, those are the things you always have to take. Unless you make your SM captain very expensive, its weak. And if expensive and strong hes cost-ineffective. The libririan, however usefull, it sucks in close combat. Chaplain can be nice, but needs another expensive unit with him, so it becomes a points sink, and I dont like points sinks. The troops choices is what bothers me the most with SM. Those scouts are worth a laugh really, they dish out almost zero damage. Get toasted by heavy flamers and in cc they get hammerd too. Tacticals are mediocre at best. Its mainly cause of the obligitory Sergeant and the innabiltiy to take more than 1 special. The fact that a lot of people choose to combat squad them, shows that they are weak. Cause wound allocation just plain hurts and in kill points missions you dont want to combat squad. Really I cannot imagine I will ever lose against an SM player without special characters. Cause what do we have: Deamon prince as an Hq choice! Yes indeed, we can take hq's who can go out on their own and attract tons of fire! Escially with MoN and wings they are a real threat. Not to talk about lash princes... But the thing I really like about our codex compard to the SM one: TROOPS! Zerkers, plague marines, noise marines, normal marines with an extra attack and 2 specials! Come on people we have what they only can take in elite and fast attack slots! Killyness in our troops choices. Zerkers are specialised, tactical squads cant specialize. Thats the who point why Tacticals are weak. 2. Marines with special characters Okay, this one is a slightly different story. I am hinting at Khan and Vulkan mostly. Good players can build very interesting and well working lists with Khan, they still have the weak troop choices, but they can bypass this with the rest of their army! Vulkan is just to0 good if you look at him without looking to the rest of the codex. His wargear alone sets him at his price he has. And all of his wargear IS usefull. So you kinda get twin-linking melta and flame gear for free. And making those SS/TH termies even better! This makes tacticals kinda cheaper too, by making their wargear better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 You know, good players can build competetive lists with their Space Marines armies and not use special characters. I don't really believe in points sinks. The problem with expensive units is their application and integration into a Space Marines army. An expensive squad of Honour Guard dictates a different style of play to be useful and not wasteful, but most players don't like to change their style for that unit (and nor should they), therefore that unit seems like a waste because it does not fit into their list very well. Other players find a niche in their army list that incorprates these expensive units well. I can name a couple people on these boards who use the supposed points sinks units to great effect (Brother Tual & Seahawk are both examples of successful and experienced players who have made use of Honour Guard and other expensive kit/Grey Knight allies many times). I myself have a great track record using Honour Guard to win games. But this is because it is our style of play and army building. I think its a rather weak codex. And you know why? Cause of the rahter weak HQ's and really weak troops choices. I can't understand why you think a Space Marines Captain is weak? I use a Captain with Relic blade and he rocks! Whilst using Honour Guard where I have to use a Master I keep the same load out but have started added a Chaplain into the mix. A Relic blade at Initiative 5 that re-rolls misses with a unit of such power as Honour Guard (Champion with Relic Blade and the Chaplain) means you can wipe the floor with just about anything, especially with a Chapter Banner granting an extra attack to those high WS relic blade weilding nut cases! Plus the Captain is merciful cheap. 130pts for a S6 Captain and 155pts for a Master is cheap as chips! Tacticals to me are distinctly average unless used in a particular way. I use them mounted in a Rhino and keep them inside until I am ready to attack, which is in conjunction with, say, my Honour Guard hitting a unit. They are alot better when supporting an attack like that, as opponents will find them shot up with a Tactical squad while a nasty assault unit carves through a unit and their Landraider transports blasts them to pieces too. The biggest thing I am scared of in a Chaos Space Marines army list is the 2 Daemon Princes, but they are not invincible by a long shot. Lash is not a problem now we have survivable transports in 5th edition, but the close combat ability on a Daemon Prince is a worry. But then that's 40K! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 I only compared the Chaos codex with the SM one. Thats why I called it weak. No mistakes here, I have not a lost a game with my SM, if you believe me or not. But maybe thats because I dont take them to tourneys ;) I just slaughter them all the time with my chaos, and I'm not only playing noobs haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnus Thane Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 Pointsink... a word that SOMETIMES annoys me. The game is more than just minmaxing. At least to me. The fact you can take an uberunit is part of the fun. And if you play opponents who play for fun, they are even more so. In any case... the SM codex seems quite cool from what i read. Great diversity, lots of options. I'm still a bit unsure about the 'Hero' concept but it certainly has an interesting effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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