Loyalist opinions

[Zhukov]

What bother me SOMETIMES is that people always try to defend with 'not everything is about winning, its fun to use (insert something here).

 

I use fun units too! I sometimes run bloodfeeder lords, or 2 landraiders with expensive troops and both an Hq in them. For fun! But that was not the question of the OP. Mostly people want opinions on whats good or not good right? Cause if they dont care and are going to use the units anyway they dont need opinions on their units.

[Captain Idaho]

You may not, but there are other people out there who I was generically talking to whoever seem to have the opinion that only certain lists and units are ever worth taking.

 

I just slaughter them all the time with my chaos, and I'm not only playing noobs haha.

 

I do agree that most Space Marines players get whooped regularly against Traitors, but that is largely because they take old 4th edition lists and don't adapt. I enjoy beating Chaos Marines lists, because I have Honour Guard that can beat their units in close combat (taking away their chief advantages over my guys).

[Seahawk]

My only beef is that there is a 2+/3+ EW character that's affordable in 750 point games, and no good FAQ to explain the numerous mistakes put into the codex. Not to mention fluff mistakes...wowza!

 

Other than that, it's fairly easy to beat, like any other army. I also agree wholesale with Captain Idaho, that people need to get over the fact that 4th edition is gone and adaptability is ftw...but I may be biased, after all B).

[the jeske]

I enjoy beating Chaos Marines lists, because I have Honour Guard that can beat their units in close combat (taking away their chief advantages over my guys).

how do you get them in to hth with LR rush? and if yes how do you deal with the LR meta being played a lot + what do you do after they destroy that one unit and the HG starts getting lashed.

 

 

I also agree wholesale with Captain Idaho, that people need to get over the fact that 4th edition is gone and adaptability is ftw...but I may be biased, after all

you know , if someone let a a AL fan boy do the Chaos dex and if GW would let him warp the fluff in such a way that all the other chaos legions are lame and AL is the uber of most uber , I would be happy too [well maybe not with the rules that let me play 2 army builds] .

[darth_giles]

how do you get them in to hth with LR rush? and if yes how do you deal with the LR meta being played a lot + what do you do after they destroy that one unit and the HG starts getting lashed.

I'm guessing one of his HQ choices is a Librarian with Psychic Hood. They can still be used every time a psychic power goes off, right?

[Zhukov]

Captain Idaho:How do you beat chaos with your Honour Guard in a land raider? I just cannot see that happen against me... Do your oponents dont take melta with them for example?

In 1850 I would for example take at least 4 multi melta attack bikes with SM. Not to talk about lasscanon and other melta platforms or assault canons.

With chaos again melta, this time as guns in my troops choices, warptime Deamon princes, oblits, termi suicide squads: they all destroy your land raider, buts thats not the point. The problem is then your expensive unit inside has to run too. Or indeed gets lashed, or templates on it, or both.

And do you know what the beauty is with playing against a player with a land raider + hq + honour guard? You NEED to run your land raider forward, cause there is such an expensive unit in it, which is pure for hth.

Maybe against chaos this isnt that big of a problem, cause most of the time chaos wont outshoot you, even if that expensive unit isnt doing much, but:

What against Tau with hammerhaids or broadsides.

What agaisnt Eldar with brightlances and fusion guns?

Both armies probably outshoot and in the case of eldar out manouver you.

 

So Captain Idaho please tell me how do you use your land raider with the expensive units in it so effectively? I just cannot see that happen. And yes I read your article, but the answer isnt in it...

[Captain Idaho]

I'm not saying Chaos are worse than Loyalist, just that Chaos aren't the auto win against them people think.

 

Well, where do I start.... ;)

 

My lists are generally heavy in armour. I use Dreadnoughts aggressively, and team them up against targets to provide overwhelming force. I have Tactical squads in Rhinos that I use to apply pressure to high priority targets.

 

Against things like Daemon Princes, I have often charged Dreadnoughts into them as a counter charge (in the last GT I did such a thing and killed a Daemon Prince, even with the 2nd jumping into the fight. I even had lots of bad luck with my attacks, hitting with only 1 attack in my turn out of 6, doing the same again in the next turn!). Little bit of firepower really evens up the odds, as cover is not an issue really as they are flying around and most players don't risk their MCs rolling a 1 for a dangerous terrain test.

 

A Tactical squad can jump out of a Rhino and bolter shock a Daemon Prince prior to the Dreadnoughts crashing in, and long range Lascannons can take a wound off here and there...

 

Like I said earlier, Daemon Princes are the hardest things for me to beat with my Space Marines. But they are not invincible by any stretch of the imagination. Even with 2D6 armour penetration it's not as easy as you think to kill a Dreadnought, let alone 2. A Dreadnought can help a Tactical squad kill off a wounded Daemon Prince, as the powerfist can survive enough turns to cause a couple wounds and splitting attacks between the 2 units will result in neither being destroyed usually. A Tactical squad can lure a Daemon Prince into attacking for the counter charge and still survive.

 

Obliterators are scary with their plasma cannons, but they don't like a lascannon in the face either.

 

Thing is long range lascannon fire will not be sufficient to destroy a Landraider, Rhino, Dreadnought + Dreadnought plus attack bikes in 5th edition in a couple turns as 4+ cover saves are abundant and you need to hit, penetrate, 4+ cover save and then roll on the damage table to destroy a vehicle. Lascannons really don't bother a Landraider in such an army with multiple vehicles short term. By the time the Landraider is in range of scary Chaos Melta units the Assault unit probably has already launched its attack.

 

Deepstriking suicide Terminators with combi-meltas can be nasty, but are hardly an exact science. They still need to be within 6" to take down a Landraider, which is hard to do with the scatter dice. Then they need to hit, I get my 4+ cover save etc...

 

And that brings us onto why I'm not bothered by Lash. The Daemon Princes are used to fight off my army launching an attack and if they are in close combat they can't use the Lash. Vehicles are unaffected by Lash, meaning the troops inside are unaffected. A Lash Daemon Prince is the weakest for me to counter as the units I usually end up using to counter it at lower initiatve anyway and the Daemon Prince will have a lowly save and T5.

 

What against Tau with hammerhaids or broadsides.

What agaisnt Eldar with brightlances and fusion guns?

 

Tau are never usually a problem, because my transports are enjoying a 4+ cover save from smoke or clever placement and theirs aren't because they need to shoot, and I can return fire selectively with my own firepower units. Sure I wont be able to out shoot them long term, but all I need to do is take down or shake a couple fire power units and I have my army on the tau doorstep.

 

Eldar are always a problem, fusion guns being the biggest concern. But they can only hit a single vehicle in a turn and aren't guaranteed a kill (though usually do!). I must confess Eldar are my bogie, but I should be able to shoot them up a little on the way in, and they are brittle as china.

 

So Captain Idaho please tell me how do you use your land raider with the expensive units in it so effectively? I just cannot see that happen. And yes I read your article, but the answer isnt in it...

 

I wasn't using Landraiders much back then! B)

[the jeske]

I'm guessing one of his HQ choices is a Librarian with Psychic Hood. They can still be used every time a psychic power goes off, right?

ok arent GT played at 1500? how is he fiting 2 dreads calgar a honor guard a librarian and still has enough scoring units ?

 

 

Deepstriking suicide Terminators with combi-meltas can be nasty, but are hardly an exact science. They still need to be within 6" to take down a Landraider, which is hard to do with the scatter dice

but unless I play you on turn one , I know you play a LR rush list . I will know that those units may be my problem a chaos player will have 2x4 or 2x3 melta guns and 2x2 meltas on oblits deep striking too . sure they dont have drop pods , so they do scatter [unless icons are near ,and its possible that the icons are there , because chaos plays agresive short range lists too] , but the cover wont be there [also am having problems imaging how can outside of city fight tables there always be cover for all tanks].

And what if you end up on a lava board , the expensive unit army takes a huge hit then . specially when its second or third turn and your droping from the top 8 tables .

 

 

A Lash Daemon Prince is the weakest for me to counter as the units I usually end up using to counter it at lower initiatve anyway and the Daemon Prince will have a lowly save and T5.

okey . so you have that huge LR/Calgar / honor guard unit . 3 tacticals or 2 tacticals and a scout unit + meta units . how do you counter 2 lash prince that are faster then any unit save the LR one and if both are alive then push an assault unit 4d6 ?

[Seahawk]

how is he fiting 2 dreads calgar a honor guard a librarian and still has enough scoring units ?

 

Lol, seriously? You only need one to win, and two because you have to have them...

 

the cover wont be there [also am having problems imaging how can outside of city fight tables there always be cover for all tanks].

 

I imagine we play with more cover on our tables than in your area. I haven't seen a lava board in tournaments for years. Not only that, but not all forests are 6x6" and have one tree on the forest template. Smoke launchers also provide auto-cover for vehicles, remember.

 

units . how do you counter 2 lash prince that are faster then any unit save the LR one and if both are alive then push an assault unit 4d6

 

He already covered that in his previous post.

[Brother Hadafix]

Now you all have had plenty of time to stop whining about loyalists new toys, and get used to battling them do people still think there overpowered? i think this would be interesting to know, also how do you people deal with them? anything you lot still think is overpowered/unbalanced?

 

If I was still able to use my LatD list, I would wipe the floor with them as I am able to at least draw using C:BT.

 

I would imagine that once a player has got over the glitzy toys, the C:SM or C:UM as some call it (Mr Ward) is not that powerful, its just full of glam. Yeah there are slightly over powered things in it, but then using those affects flexibility so those closest to the UM fluff wise are being unfluffy if they use them at can really call them selves UM players (point this out to them, it put them off the fight and their is no come back.)

 

I have seen people recreating the Legions win most against C:SM, however C:CSM players in may area are rare.

[Captain Idaho]

I don't take Calgar, I take Captain Galenus, Master of the Marches (i.e. a Chapter Master with Relic blade) :lol:

 

Master with Relic blade, Chaplain, 5 Honour Guard with Chapter Banner and Relic blade on the Champion mounted in a Landraider costs 730pts. Expensive, but the Landraider would be in the list anway and the Master is only 25pts more than my usual Captain, while the Honour Guard are the cost of a Tactical squad.

 

I wouldn't take a Librarian, while I have 20 Tacticals, 1 of which is in a Rhino, 2 Dreads (Assault cannon and Lascannon respectively) and 3 attack bikes in such a list. It's actually a fairly big list, though I would prefer to drop the attack Bikes for scouts and use the spare points to mount the rest of the Tacticals. The Chaplain makes the attack of the Honour Guard nasty, though I have been toying with the list dropping things and adding things.

 

Still in the playtest stage, but I am confident that I can take apart Chaos forces with the army or at least give a good battle.

 

I know you play a LR rush list . I will know that those units may be my problem a chaos player will have 2x4 or 2x3 melta guns and 2x2 meltas on oblits deep striking too

 

Well that's the beauty of the battle mate. Both sides jostling for control and trying to out do eachother. ;)

 

I would deal with a mass deepstrike like this: You deepstrike those units close to the Landraider and I get to charge them with the Dreads and protect them from fire, whilst taking out your firepower units. Likewise the Honour Guard bail out of the Landraider and kill at least 1 of the offending units, if I can reach more then I can kill a couple at once. The Tacticals in a Rhino rush forward and support their brethren. All of a sudden you have lost your fire support and I have Dreadnoughts closer to your unsupported base line. That would logically force your Daemon Princes into action and if I have taken them you are out of units to protect your objectives, save standard Chaos Marines that will suffer at the hands of Honour Guard and/Dreads.

 

If the Landraider survives you are in trouble!

 

Of course you have your tricks and that's what makes for a game. But that was an example of how I would play an opponent who did as you suggested.

[Cornelias]

it seems outside the US/UK the best way to play 40k is to get both army lists, have a discussion on which is the better of the 2 then name a winner! (also means less painting) ;)

 

on a serious note tho, we all know how to build optimal lists it's not exactly rocket science but it's not exactly the most fun or entertaining either. having a set army and playing with it week in,week out soon becomes largely boring as does math hammering and meta games. i know because a few years back i had the same attitude while playing my iron warriors,this led to me taking a year long break from the game until i got together with a group of gamers that don't take it as seriously.

 

how is the hobby supposed to bring new players in and keep them interested if they go to their local gaming club/GW store only to be steamrollered by a zerker/PM, 2x lash prince, 6x oblit army or bikernobz builds etc.

[Roultox]

Well, lets take a moment to gander at what scores for both codexes.

 

Loyalist:

Scouts, Tacticals

Space Marine Bikes (required HQ on bike and the unit is "5" or stronger in size)

Sternguard (Pedro Kantor)

 

Chaos:

Basic Chaos Space Marines (no considerable equal for versitility, cost and balanced strength)

Thousand Sons (Sternguard on steroids basicly)

Berzerkers (Imagine killing a SM HQ with an equal points of troops in melee by getting the charge)

Plague Marines (No notable equal in the SM codex)

Noise Marines (Sternguard, what guard?)

Kroot Mercenaries (Yes we get these too)

Lesser Daemons (Our version of scouts mixed with maximum scoring units but more straightforward)

 

In most mathhammer, 4 'bolter' shots can equal 3 heavy bolter shots, so a unit of sonic weapons, thousand sons and melee berzerkers given that basis are practicly a "devistator" squad as a troops choice (if used properly!). Giving out that thought, we can make a viable balanced army of just troop choices alone. Even packing up to 20 per troop choice if we're limited in larger points battles.

 

Loyalists have a harder time with that. And as such they get 'jucier' units elsewhere. Our troops outclass theirs in most respects, even being a bargain point for point. Chaos players often overlook this element, and I am guilty of such crimes myself. So I've been winning more games using more troops then normal.

 

(Pssst, I'm trying to change the tone of the topic)

[Cornelias]

my apologies for going off topic :)

 

as far as comparing the new loyalist dex to our own the only real complaint i have is the special characters ability to add abilities to the rest of the army. i feel they should have done this with our dex by adding more characters for some other legions to add some variation. i think our dex still comes out slightly on top due to the versatility of our troop choices, especially the basic CSM squads that are able to have upto 3 base attacks (with IoK) and two special weapons.

i know most of the meta gamers use zerker/plague marines as they have more specialized roles but i still prefer basic marines. we have probably the best heavy support choices across all the dex's in the obliterator and defiler so although the loyalists got some cool stuff like special characters and sternguard i think Chaos will remain my primary choice for gaming/ collecting.

[eyescrossed]

Thousand Sons (Sternguard on steroids basicly)

Wait - you're telling me a unit slower than a dead turtle is on steroids compared to a unit of genetically engineered humans?

[Roultox]

24" AP3 guns, 4+ inv save, Force Weapon+Psychic Power(s) as a troops choice while given the ability to move and fire 24" is a unit I would declair on steroids in the comparison I made. Personal preference in words. :P

 

Cornelias:

I believe they came up with the ideal after the CSM codex came out. Examples of their experimenting are shown in the ork codex, and then made clearly apparent with the marine codex that followed. We were also a testbed using fabius bile.

(Forgot to add fabius bile's enhanced marines to the list!)

[CelestialSon]

True, but the whole point of sternguard is their flexibility in their ammo types. AP3 bolters is nice and all, but against chaos daemons, orks or nids, i'd like hellfire wounds. Not to mention that sterngaurd can get cheap combi weapons and still use their special ammo, and can mount in a droop pod or razorback.

 

Thousand Sons and sternguard aren't even in the same field of use.

[Zhukov]

Why are people comparing Sons with Stern?! Cause they both have AP3 shots on their bolters? And even that ammo type isnt the same...

 

They have totally different uses.

[Captain Idaho]

(Pssst, I'm trying to change the tone of the topic)

 

:) I think the topic was ok! Healthy debate, I wasn't offended by anything my Chaotic Brothers said and was enjoying the discussion. Hopefully they feel the same.

 

I do agree with Roultox though;

 

Chaos Marines do in fact have the advantage that their men are better than the loyalists by and large. They have Tacticals that are also Assault Marines, and they have specialists in the Troops section, like you said mate. So the specialists are there in Loyalist armies to pick up the slack!

[Zhukov]

always enjoying discussions :D

 

Although many times I wish I could play certain people like you...

[Captain Idaho]

always enjoying discussions :D

 

Although many times I wish I could play certain people like you...

 

Ha agreed! Be interesting to see how the game would go eh? :(

[CelestialSon]

All i'm going to say is that i was actually pretty relieved to see how much "anti chaos" stuff was in this latest SM codex. Sure, there's an ultrasmurf shooting a CSM on the front cover, and yeah, there's sternguard, redeemers, avenger and a better smite....

 

BUT, when CSMs were running around with doombolt, wind of change and battlecannons, it felt one sided.

 

It's good that each side has anti-the-other-side material. It really helps against necrons

[Captain Idaho]

And the Necrons are the true losers here! :)