Of the new hellguns and pistols

[Stargazer]

Right now I'm angry!!!!!! damn GW damn them all :)

 

However i will take that all back if we get the upgrade as well :D

 

Otherwise :)

[Gentlemanloser]

We didn't get 3+ Storm Shields, we won't get AP3 Hellguns.

[SoulReaver296]

what else are we trailing in tech wise besides stormshields, assault cannons, and hellguns? (not counting units, just wargear)

[the jeske]

machine spirit , rhinos .

[Grand Master Tyrak]

SoulReaver296 Posted Today, 07:06 PM

what else are we trailing in tech wise besides stormshields, assault cannons, and hellguns? (not counting units, just wargear)

 

Well, we are ahead with our force weapons, only the Eldar Diresword can match ours (and that's not Str 6). It's not always a case of trailing technology.

[Imperator Mos]

Ok, so lasers can cut things. I believe that in the table-top battle game of Warhammer 40,000, it takes a Strength 9 laser to produce an armour penetration (AP) rating of 2. So, for an AP 3 laser you should need what, S6, S7?

[Gentlemanloser]

Since day one I've said a fundamental flaw with the current versions is High Strength == High AP.

 

40K needs more numerous low Str, high AP weapons. And as such, I'm not opposed to AP3 Hellguns.

 

I'm opposed to not everyone who uses Hellguns getting the newer version though. And my mates origianlly went "/meh BS3 Guards" until i rectified them, letting them know Stormtroopers are BS4. :)

[Askari]

Strength has nothing to do with AP. AP is ability to pierce armor while strength is the ability to harm what's wearing the armor.

 

It's perfectly plausible to have a laser hot enough to melt through power armor but with a diameter so small it can't really do much damage to flesh. In fact there are a number of low caliber, armor piercing sub-machines in existence today that can easily punch through body armor but have a hard time stopping an opponent.

 

And remember it's rapid fire and only strength 3 and range 18 inches. So only 2/9 of all your shots will kill a marine. hile this is 4 times better than the lasgun against marines its only slightly more better against orks and gaunts and against these enemies it's shorter range will put the unit in danger of assault even when firing from their max range.

 

Where the hellgun's are going to shine is against T3 enemies with medium armor and marines.

 

And stormtroopers aren't going to be as good as sternguard. All of their stats are worse except for bs, stormtroopers don't have access to drop pods to allow them to deepstrike safely, stormies can't take as many weapon upgrades as sternguard, and the stormtroopers will only have -1 strength vengeance rounds without gets hot while sternguard have all the other special ammunition.

[number6]

Stormtroopers may not "be as good as sternguard", but you can bet they will have access to Valkries. Depending on how many stormtrooper units it is "feasible" to put in an IG list, you might see some very Tau-like maneuvers coming out of the IG in the near future.

[skarn]

One thing to consider is using the allies rules.

 

For example, you could use IG as a base, take whatever character enables ST to be taken as troops, and a couple of ST with valks. Then ally (for example) a unit of termis, and 2 units of PAGK (pagk in valks, how cool is that?). The only situation where we miss out here is trying to take DH heavy support, which is compensated for by the vastly superior IG heavy support.

 

IMO, the IG book is going to be a massive shot into the arm for DH players.

[the jeske]

Then ally (for example) a unit of termis, and 2 units of PAGK (pagk in valks, how cool is that?).

considering that for the same pts you can have better tanks , more list synergy et5c no not really good . also ally or not GK still use the DH rules for transporting , not the one from the IG codex.

[skarn]

Then ally (for example) a unit of termis, and 2 units of PAGK (pagk in valks, how cool is that?).

considering that for the same pts you can have better tanks , more list synergy et5c no not really good . also ally or not GK still use the DH rules for transporting , not the one from the IG codex.

So GK plus IST is more synergetic than kasrkin/st and GK? even though kasrkin/st are now far better? :D

 

Anyway, it's only a matter of waiting until july in any case, since the planetfall release apparently includes the inq stuff that will be cut out of the GK and SoB books in the future.

[Gentlemanloser]

Planetfall will include Inquisitors? :/

 

But, I'm starting to agree that DH parent lists are going to be ecclipsed by IG Parent lists with allied GK.

 

As said, take the IG IC that lets you have Stromtroopers as Troops (there will be one) and call him your Inquisitor. There you have your Inq HQ and AP3 Troops (which will be so much better than the 'proper' IST). And can ally in a couple of squad (becuase you can't really have many more anyway, due to points costs) of the GK units you want to use.

 

As for Transports, GK in a IG Parent list will be able to use IG dedicated transports, as it's the Transports Codex that determins dedicated status.

 

Finally, go go mobile PAGK.

 

Bye bye DH Parent lists.

[GodwynDi]

And remember it's rapid fire and only strength 3 and range 18 inches. So only 2/9 of all your shots will kill a marine. hile this is 4 times better than the lasgun against marines its only slightly more better against orks and gaunts and against these enemies it's shorter range will put the unit in danger of assault even when firing from their max range.

 

Where the hellgun's are going to shine is against T3 enemies with medium armor and marines.

 

Which is really going to hurt SoB. The true place it will shine, T3 models with PA. The range does not matter as much, for SoB to be effective, they generally have to be within that range as well.

[SJumppanen]

And remember it's rapid fire and only strength 3 and range 18 inches. So only 2/9 of all your shots will kill a marine. hile this is 4 times better than the lasgun against marines its only slightly more better against orks and gaunts and against these enemies it's shorter range will put the unit in danger of assault even when firing from their max range.

 

Where the hellgun's are going to shine is against T3 enemies with medium armor and marines.

 

Which is really going to hurt SoB. The true place it will shine, T3 models with PA. The range does not matter as much, for SoB to be effective, they generally have to be within that range as well.

 

Rhino rush should still be effective. Also, now there is a good reason to have full sized IST squads in WH army(if they do get that AP3). Least i would take Rhiho full of IST. Propably with nothing else on them.

[Prathios]

But it also means they suck. These are Stormtroopers, they shouldn't suck.

 

You're correct they are the best humanity has to offer. And they should still get wrecked by space marines. Space Marines still cost a lot more, and when you give a weapon that guns down marines to a troop that costs a ton less you are seriously hurting the marines. Plus from a fluff standpoint a hellgun shot that penetrates marine armor has an amazingly low chance of killing him in the first place unless its a head shot. AP 4 is as low as any kind of las-based weapon should get.

 

Oh and laser cutting tools generally aren't fired at long ranges or in small bursts. This greatly reduces their power and in a small burst its going to be amazingly tough for a concentrated beam of light to go through a material like ceramite that's tougher than steel plate.

[number6]

Finally, go go mobile PAGK.

 

Bye bye DH Parent lists.

Hey, I think it's cool that the new IG codex is poised to bring extra dimensions to gaming with the GKs. But "Bye bye DH Parent lists"? :o I don't think so. GKs can still kick butt, even in a competitive environment.

 

You only need to go run to (and hide under? :P) a new codex if that's what you want to do. Warts and all, the DH army still has what it takes to win games.

 

My hope is that gamers flocking to the new IG will want to ally in GKs to help supplement their fortitude. Even as they're getting boosted, the new Ogryns are no match for GKs in a scrap, either shooting or assaulting.

And remember it's rapid fire and only strength 3 and range 18 inches. So only 2/9 of all your shots will kill a marine. hile this is 4 times better than the lasgun against marines its only slightly more better against orks and gaunts and against these enemies it's shorter range will put the unit in danger of assault even when firing from their max range.

 

Where the hellgun's are going to shine is against T3 enemies with medium armor and marines.

Which is really going to hurt SoB. The true place it will shine, T3 models with PA. The range does not matter as much, for SoB to be effective, they generally have to be within that range as well.

Definitely brutal against any average/low-T foes (like SoBs). But a unit of 10 IG STs with hellguns will outperform 12 Tau Fire Warriors with their pulse rifles at taking down MEQs ... and most other infantry as well.

 

New IG STs

10 hellguns rapid-firing at BS 4 --> 13.33 hits --> 4.44 MEQ wounds --> 4.44 dead MEQs

 

Tau FWs

12 pulse rifles rapid-firing at BS 3 --> 12 hits --> 8 MEQ wounds --> 2.67 dead MEQs

 

The only way the Tau can approach that efficiency is by supplementing the FWs with markerlight hits to increase the BS of the FWs. (At BS 5, the FWs exactly match -- statistically -- the IG STs. But I would bet that the investment that Tau make into getting that performance will be significantly higher than what the IG player will be spending on a Valkrie with a full unit of 10 STs inside.)

 

Nevertheless, I hope it's clear that IG STs pulling a "fish of fury" out of a Valkrie are significantly deadlier to infantry than many comparable units.

[Gentlemanloser]

Hey, I think it's cool that the new IG codex is poised to bring extra dimensions to gaming with the GKs. But "Bye bye DH Parent lists"? I don't think so. GKs can still kick butt, even in a competitive environment.

 

You only need to go run to (and hide under? ) a new codex if that's what you want to do. Warts and all, the DH army still has what it takes to win games.

 

My hope is that gamers flocking to the new IG will want to ally in GKs to help supplement their fortitude. Even as they're getting boosted, the new Ogryns are no match for GKs in a scrap, either shooting or assaulting.

 

I'm just bitter. It seems due to the ally rule that every new codex that comes out makes it better and better to play that parent list and ally in your two PAGK squads and as many GKT as you can afford.

 

Sure Pure GK can still be competitive, mostly if you want to run the two/three LR lists.

 

But any attempt to use other units from the Codex (well Inquisitorial units) just seem to be much more effective now using a non DH parent list. Substituting IG Parent lists for Inquisitorial units, and even SM parent lists for things like Deathwatch.

 

The largest problem with PAGK at the moment is delivery. We could use GK LR for this, but if you want a change, or want to add in some IST to compliment your PAGK, it's far better to use the new IG 'dex, even if we don't want access to new skimmer transports.

 

The Faux IST from the IG codex will be cheaper, with better wargear and options, and better transports than those of our codex. Why ever bother again to include DH codex ISTs?

[Prathios]

Hey, I think it's cool that the new IG codex is poised to bring extra dimensions to gaming with the GKs. But "Bye bye DH Parent lists"? I don't think so. GKs can still kick butt, even in a competitive environment.

 

You only need to go run to (and hide under? ) a new codex if that's what you want to do. Warts and all, the DH army still has what it takes to win games.

 

My hope is that gamers flocking to the new IG will want to ally in GKs to help supplement their fortitude. Even as they're getting boosted, the new Ogryns are no match for GKs in a scrap, either shooting or assaulting.

 

I'm just bitter. It seems due to the ally rule that every new codex that comes out makes it better and better to play that parent list and ally in your two PAGK squads and as many GKT as you can afford.

 

Sure Pure GK can still be competitive, mostly if you want to run the two/three LR lists.

 

But any attempt to use other units from the Codex (well Inquisitorial units) just seem to be much more effective now using a non DH parent list. Substituting IG Parent lists for Inquisitorial units, and even SM parent lists for things like Deathwatch.

 

The largest problem with PAGK at the moment is delivery. We could use GK LR for this, but if you want a change, or want to add in some IST to compliment your PAGK, it's far better to use the new IG 'dex, even if we don't want access to new skimmer transports.

 

The Faux IST from the IG codex will be cheaper, with better wargear and options, and better transports than those of our codex. Why ever bother again to include DH codex ISTs?

 

I'm so glad I chose to start playing DH right now... sigh. Is there always this much drama? Hearing stuff like this is very disheartening.

[Captain Malachi]

I'm so glad I chose to start playing DH right now... sigh. Is there always this much drama? Hearing stuff like this is very disheartening.

Sadly, yes, it is often like this, however you need to remember that there's a good reason they all still play :tu:

[Red Lost Soldier]

DH IST's will still do something that new IG ones won't, namely capture objectives. Also the =][= won't get AP3 hellguns (yet?). New codices don't upgrade old codex wargear, and our IST are probably undercosted if they suddenly gained the new statline without penalty. This is still a distant rumor sheet, and we have no context for this new gun (such as point cost or other restrictions).

 

Positively, I think as with the new SM codex the ally rules only get more interesting. So I see this release as being a boost for DH rather than a detriment.

 

Lastly it's going to take more than a few number changes to get me away from the =][=. The things that get me to play this codex aren't suddenly disappearing. You want a top tier competitive or point and click army then you are in the wrong place. What my DH are, is simply the most enjoyable army I play. Either it's an uphill struggle that makes victory more satisfying, or it's a wacky army that always surprises me, or some combination of the two.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

The only way the Tau can approach that efficiency is by supplementing the FWs with markerlight hits to increase the BS of the FWs. (At BS 5, the FWs exactly match -- statistically -- the IG STs. But I would bet that the investment that Tau make into getting that performance will be significantly higher than what the IG player will be spending on a Valkrie with a full unit of 10 STs inside.)

 

Im not sure I agree, If you are to believe most of the rumors (Which the Improved Gun is at this point), disembarking from a moving Valk will inflict Dangerous Terrain as the Troops Fast Rope down, thats something Fire Warriors dont have to deal with. Nor can Hell guns deal with hgih Toughness/vehicle units as well as Fire Warriors Can. And again, VS. Low Save models the hellguns are quite redundant. This becomes more important in more recent times what with Orks becoming more popular.

 

EG:

New IG STs

10 hellguns rapid-firing at BS 4 --> 13.33 hits --> 6.66 GEQ wounds --> 6.66 GEQ wounds

 

Tau FWs

12 pulse rifles rapid-firing at BS 3 --> 12 hits --> 10 GEQ wounds --> 10 GEQ wounds

[Brother Delias]

in an off note... certain ork builds make hellguns quite useless... usch as my free boota list... all nobz, 4+/5+ FNP... I could really care less about AP3 with them.... it's only marines or like units that are going to worry about these... a marine strike force is simply too small to deal with the new guard force... also... if memory serves... a valk has two sponson mounted HBs and fire points....

[number6]

Im not sure I agree, If you are to believe most of the rumors (Which the Improved Gun is at this point), disembarking from a moving Valk will inflict Dangerous Terrain as the Troops Fast Rope down, thats something Fire Warriors dont have to deal with.

That's indeed possible, though I am currently under the impression that this is only going to happen if the Troops disembark after the Valk "flys" (deep strikes?) onto the field, and/or if the Valk moves Flat Out. In the latter case, that would be the only instance in the game where an embarked unit can disembark after a vehicle moves faster than Cruising Speed, so a pretty significant advantage, even given the Dangerous Terrain test.

Nor can Hell guns deal with hgih Toughness/vehicle units as well as Fire Warriors Can. And again, VS. Low Save models the hellguns are quite redundant. This becomes more important in more recent times what with Orks becoming more popular.

 

EG:

New IG STs

10 hellguns rapid-firing at BS 4 --> 13.33 hits --> 6.66 GEQ wounds --> 6.66 GEQ wounds

 

Tau FWs

12 pulse rifles rapid-firing at BS 3 --> 12 hits --> 10 GEQ wounds --> 10 GEQ wounds

Too true. :) Against the opponents you're talking about, it all comes down to the armour save. If it's 4+, the IG hellguns still outperform pulse rifles. (6.66 wounds > 5 wounds). There are lots of weapons in the game that are at least AP 5 (bolters, storm bolters, pulse rifles, etc.), at which point rate of fire, range, the strength of the weapon, and the overall capabilities of the troops carrying it (e.g., mobility, melee competence, armour save, etc.) figure far more importantly.

 

What it looks like to me is that hellguns are going to be one of the better all-around infantry suppression weapons available ... when you give those hellguns the ability to show up anywhere -- and quickly -- on the battlefield you might want them. They're not the best horde suppression weapon around, but they're still OK, especially when combined with the Valkrie transport. And they're one of the best weapons at taking down heavily armoured opponents, which are the kinds of units that can most cause IG fits if allowed to close into melee combat. We GK and SoB players need to be very wary of this new threat.

[Prathios]

Well it seems to me that Marines would be better off if they started taking hellguns. If its as good as they are making it out to be what is the point of the bolter? Its terrible against high toughness mobs too and it can't cut through armor... Looks like the Space Marines (GK included) are kinda stupid to be using an inferior weapon to the Imperial Gaurd.