Brother Delias Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 until you factor in that a bolter is S5 vs S3, which will make units have to take more saves. To me, IG have and always will be an armored force. marines are a strike force, and should be played thusly, it is the sad fact that people cry when the cannot powergame their armies into unstoppable killing machines... that is why the punisher varient leman russ will exist, and why hellguns are S3, AP3. people don't play to how their army is supposed to work... save those that have old codices. DH, WH, and Dark Eldar cannot move out of their archtype, because at the time, their codices were made to fit the archtype. Now? We have tyranids that outperform everything else in every way, guard that have flashlights of doom, Craftworlds working together, and demon killing specialists that oddly enough... CAN'T.... KILL.... DEMONS(wait... what?). Sadly enough... I see the other races, save the orks(which cannot force their way out of being underdogs) going the same route. Tau will more than likely get better power armor, as well as better starting BS, because people will cry that they can't hit with BS3(Tau aren't supposed to hit well... they cant track targets) Guard are becoming a behemoth army since people have complained that they can't make armored companies, and their stormtroopers were just glorified guard(were they anything else from the get-go?). Tyranids are simply going to become more psychotic(sadly, it IS possible). Chaos will soon be bumped to be on par with loyalists(kinda expected). Orks will be orks.... (can never stop the converting! No matter how many models they actually make for orks!). I know I have forgotten others... but you get the picture. My thoughts? Return everything to a streamlined(what??) storyline, without all the fancy frills they have been tagging on(HERESY!!!!!), that BL has been notoriously bad with. Go BACK to the original premise of Warhammer 40K(for that matter, fantasy as well), which is to have fun(Looks over shoulder to make sure the Ordo Marketus isn't watching). Stop paying people to write canon that cannot even get the size of a titan down to a simple answer(is that so hard?? 40 feet... there, done... wow I should write for them!). Oh... and bring back squats... (Ordo Marketus bursts through the door and drags Brother Delias away, bound and gagged). BLACK ROBED INQUISITOR: You see nothing, you hear nothing... Anything said to dismiss this will result in a mind-wipe and retrained to love marketing strategy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/3/#findComment-1894564 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prathios Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 until you factor in that a bolter is S5 vs S3, which will make units have to take more saves. To me, IG have and always will be an armored force. marines are a strike force, and should be played thusly, it is the sad fact that people cry when the cannot powergame their armies into unstoppable killing machines... that is why the punisher varient leman russ will exist, and why hellguns are S3, AP3. people don't play to how their army is supposed to work... save those that have old codices. My only beef with it is from a purely fluff standpoint. Gaurd should not have a weapon that annihilate Space Marines. Flash Lights can't crack power armor. Even beefed up flash lights. They need tanks and heavy weapon teams to really do dmg to Marines. Space Marines should be an elite fighting force of demi-god like warriors. If you have squads of Storm Troopers and Kaserkin gunning down marines like they're fish in a barrel there is a serious problem. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/3/#findComment-1894612 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ripath Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 My only beef with it is from a purely fluff standpoint. Gaurd should not have a weapon that annihilate Space Marines. Flash Lights can't crack power armor. Even beefed up flash lights. They need tanks and heavy weapon teams to really do dmg to Marines. Space Marines should be an elite fighting force of demi-god like warriors. If you have squads of Storm Troopers and Kaserkin gunning down marines like they're fish in a barrel there is a serious problem. Yeah and the daemon hunters aren't that good at fighting daemons right now. Kind of sad that we will be taking it in the *** from the elite guard infantry now too. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/3/#findComment-1894745 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperator Mos Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 I think that with all the crazy new unit abilities in the newer codexes, maybe GW just doesn't want any models left on the board at the end of the game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/3/#findComment-1894773 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marid Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 I agree. Space Marines are supposed to be nearly invincible killing machines. Storm Troopers are not and should not be. Another thing, with the rumored 18"-range of the hellgun, does that mean it will have a 9"-range when it is used to rapid fire? That doesn't seem right. And 18"-range is a pretty bad nerf in itself. I think for now, I'm going to assume that the hellgun is not going to change and 'worry' about it when it does. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/3/#findComment-1894776 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOBMAKENZIE Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 I agree. Space Marines are supposed to be nearly invincible killing machines. Storm Troopers are not and should not be. Another thing, with the rumored 18"-range of the hellgun, does that mean it will have a 9"-range when it is used to rapid fire? That doesn't seem right. And 18"-range is a pretty bad nerf in itself. I think for now, I'm going to assume that the hellgun is not going to change and 'worry' about it when it does. No its the same way Pulse Rifles have a longer range but still only the stock 12" Rapid Fire, this just works in the favour of the guard where as its against the benefit of the tau. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/3/#findComment-1895089 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yeril Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 I don't like it, I think Stormtroopers are going to end up being a one tricky pony MEQ killer. They would have been much better with S3 ap 5 assault 3 hellguns, several special weapon choices and well, gear like that, they would be much more "elite stormtroopers" rather than "MEQ slayers." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/3/#findComment-1895240 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 how is this different from spaming vets with drop troops trait loaded up with plasma , aside that its weaker and easier to counter with rhinos...well for non GK at least? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/3/#findComment-1895275 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senseilord Ashahara Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 I assume early draft or false rumour. If you're moaning in any way that you're ISTs aren't as good as Marines then you shouldn't be using them. Should this diabolical and nonsensical change happen to my poor ISTs then they shall be getting retro-fitted with shotguns. I know it's not the sort of anger that's expected but Fluff is important and playing the game as a competative sport is not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/3/#findComment-1895351 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prathios Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 I assume early draft or false rumour.If you're moaning in any way that you're ISTs aren't as good as Marines then you shouldn't be using them. Should this diabolical and nonsensical change happen to my poor ISTs then they shall be getting retro-fitted with shotguns. I know it's not the sort of anger that's expected but Fluff is important and playing the game as a competative sport is not. Thats pretty much where I am. I'll do what I need to in order to stay fluff accurate. And I don't honestly believe it either. I don't think GW would do something this major against their own writing teams. But what do I know. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/3/#findComment-1895425 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperator Mos Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 I use Arbites anyway. I don't see why Hellguns can't just be S4 AP5. S4 shotguns would be the shizzle as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/3/#findComment-1895429 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senseilord Ashahara Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 Yeah but on the other hand, the magic '3' is the galactic standard. Humans are the benchmark and things that are better or worse get increased or docked stats. Same with weapons. Old,trusty, glorified-flashlight lasgun is roughly the equivlent of a contemporary assault rifle, likewise the shotgun. the shotgun is short ranged and pretty much obsolete on the battlefield, just about useful for laying a bit of suppressing fire as you get in close. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/3/#findComment-1895838 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cath Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 So now that the Stormtroopers have a weapon that doesn't suck people are angry? They still have the same weakness the old one did, now this just makes them useful. The old Stormtroopers were crap units, you didn't take them if you didn't have to because they were crap units. They still have that one pivotal weakness that will never be fixed. They can't fight in CC worth a damn. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/3/#findComment-1896432 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 has anyone thought how good they kill sob with their t3? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/3/#findComment-1896569 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 has anyone thought how good they kill sob with their t3? This is easy to determine. 10 hellguns rapid-firing @ BS 4 (vs T3/3+) --> 13.33 hits --> 6.66 wounds --> 6.66 dead Brutal. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/3/#findComment-1896805 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cath Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 In that fight it comes down to who shoots first. If the Sisters shoot first then the Stormtroopers are toast (literally), as they only have a 4+ save and t3. Say hello to heavy flamers. However, if the Stormtroopers get the drop on you expect to burn a faith point to keep that squad running. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/3/#findComment-1896865 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senseilord Ashahara Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 "So now that the Stormtroopers have a weapon that doesn't suck people are angry? " Not I. Being handicapped in certain aspects makes the game more challanging and, well, you know, fun. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/3/#findComment-1896881 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prathios Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 "So now that the Stormtroopers have a weapon that doesn't suck people are angry? " Not I. Being handicapped in certain aspects makes the game more challanging and, well, you know, fun. I dont understand how anyone can look at it like this. First off the old hellgun doens't suck. They do what you pay for them to do. but nobody takes the squads for hellguns anyway. You take em for plasma weapons. But the other side of the coin to that statement is even assuming you're correct and they "suck" thats not the point. The point is they went from being hellgun variant las guns to being twice as good as a bolt weapon. Thats OP. Its like way over correcting a problem (again this is assuming there was a problem to begin with.) And again it doesn't fit the fluff, after all if the Hellgun goes to a ap3 weapon then the Necron threat is officially over folks. The IG saved the galaxy since they can now mow down Necrons with no effort. Who needs marines when little timmy can just pull the trigger with his hellgun. Epic Fail. But it doesn't matter. Its not a rumor that's going to come true. This change would be lunacy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/3/#findComment-1896976 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 But it doesn't matter. Its not a rumor that's going to come true. This change would be lunacy. Then GW is a bunch of lunatics. From what I've seen, I seriously believe this to be true. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/3/#findComment-1897009 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Durendal Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 As shocked as I am by this rumor, it's the Valkyrie rumors that really miff me. The introduction of a flier and an IA rules model into regular 40k will have 3 results: 1). the nerfing of the Valkyrie (i.e. no more unique "flier" rules); 2). The over spamming of Valkyries and STs (face it we all see it coming); 3). The utter nerf of unique and special army lists like, oh I don't know, my ELYSIANS. Thank you GW for totally ruining my specialist army. I guarantee this will make IA 3 and IA 4 armies obsolete in a way. S3 AP3 Hellguns? I can deal with that. I mean its a tradeoff, seeing as they're losing a LD point and are supposed to lose some other traits too, possibly even the ability to carry 2X SW. Valkyries as a common transport choice? Sorry GW but this is one of the most unsound moves you've made. Pretty much ruin IA3/4 and their army lists as competetive lists, challenge sales of a sister company (FW), and completely nerf the rules for what was once one of the coolest units in the game (flier rules are extremely fun and challenging to play with / against) Back on to the main issue here, I don't find the new hellguns that alarming. It's the combination of them and the Valkryies that I find troubling. Oh well, I realize now why I left the guard after playing with my Elysians for a while. Once you play with the best, you can never go back to the norm. :-) Back to Fenris with my Wolves Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/3/#findComment-1897037 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanter Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Serpent + Firedrakes = Valkyrie + Stormtroopers? I dont think so. The hellgun is now useful, but not lame. Even when firing at a normal MEQ squad the stormtroopers will be toast in the next cc phase. Thinking about the stormtroopers as a suicide unit isnot right. They will become some sort of fast striking unit that finishs the job after the regulars did theirs. They will become what the fluff told us. The most elite human unit, fast striking - and fodder in hth. Adding the concepts of the IA3 / 4 armies is a good idea. The most tournaments do not allow - and should not allow - IA rules. See ist as a chance to play Elysians as a regular army. There wont be fliers in normal 40k to be able to have a competitive game. The Valkyrie will be represented in the same way the eldar tanks are. If you want to halo your troops then this can be represented by deep striking. But normaly a Valkyrie would drop the troops at low high to avoid aa shooting. No offense, just my point of view. I have IG on my own and do not know whether they will see the table with they composition ever again. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/3/#findComment-1897068 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 As shocked as I am by this rumor, it's the Valkyrie rumors that really miff me. The introduction of a flier and an IA rules model into regular 40k[....] It won't be a flier in normal 40K. It will just be a Fast Skimmer, albeit one with at least one special rule allowing it to drop its embarked unit even after moving Flat Out. :lol: (I don't see the need for the disembarking unit to have to take dangerous terrain tests that big a deterrent.) It may have another trick or two as well regarding how it may arrive on the battelfield, I'm not entirely certain. I dont think so. The hellgun is now useful, but not lame. Even when firing at a normal MEQ squad the stormtroopers will be toast in the next cc phase. Thinking about the stormtroopers as a suicide unit isnot right. They won't be. If you've never been on the receiving end of a Tau "fish of fury", then perhaps you're not aware that when such a maneuver is pulled succesfully, the bulk of the transport vehicle itself will prevent any charges by the enemy into close combat. The distance the fired-upon unit would have to travel to close in for assault is easily managed to be more than 12". Remember that an enemy can never get closer than 1" to any enemy unit -- vehicles (skimmers!) included -- yet a skimmer does not (normally) block line of sight while perched on its flying stand. So the disembarking unit can easily be within rapid-fire range yet be entirely safe from an enemy assault. They'll be subject to return fire, but not a return assault. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/3/#findComment-1897117 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prathios Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 As shocked as I am by this rumor, it's the Valkyrie rumors that really miff me. The introduction of a flier and an IA rules model into regular 40k will have 3 results: 1). the nerfing of the Valkyrie (i.e. no more unique "flier" rules); 2). The over spamming of Valkyries and STs (face it we all see it coming); 3). The utter nerf of unique and special army lists like, oh I don't know, my ELYSIANS. Thank you GW for totally ruining my specialist army. I guarantee this will make IA 3 and IA 4 armies obsolete in a way. S3 AP3 Hellguns? I can deal with that. I mean its a tradeoff, seeing as they're losing a LD point and are supposed to lose some other traits too, possibly even the ability to carry 2X SW. Valkyries as a common transport choice? Sorry GW but this is one of the most unsound moves you've made. Pretty much ruin IA3/4 and their army lists as competetive lists, challenge sales of a sister company (FW), and completely nerf the rules for what was once one of the coolest units in the game (flier rules are extremely fun and challenging to play with / against) Back on to the main issue here, I don't find the new hellguns that alarming. It's the combination of them and the Valkryies that I find troubling. Oh well, I realize now why I left the guard after playing with my Elysians for a while. Once you play with the best, you can never go back to the norm. :-) Back to Fenris with my Wolves You're ok with Space Marines, and Necrons being unable to stand toe to toe with a human trooper in carapace armor? Ok... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/3/#findComment-1897121 Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tiger Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 But it doesn't matter. Its not a rumor that's going to come true. This change would be lunacy. isn't it? http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn172/K...translated4.jpg Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/3/#findComment-1897138 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twin .44 Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Great, now my buddy is going to complain more about his Chaos Space Marines needing a new codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/3/#findComment-1897178 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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