Brother Delias Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 which means that marine bikers will toast them... T4(5)... S3 doesn't matter much... just hit them with something just as fast... also remember that fast skimmers can be a bad thing... only tau skimmers don't get destroyed when moving at speed (landing gear) so unless Valks get landing gear as well... Las/Plas the thing down... HKs will do good as well... just like a marines a marines a marine... the same thing goes for guard. and marines have enough to match or exceed their armor value to dice them up fairly well... not to mention that while AP3, they need to get into 18" with MEQs... now... what's the range on a standard bolter?? nevermind that... what is the range on MEQ special weapons?? I don't like it any more than you do... for diffrent reasons prolly than what I have seen in the majority so far. As stated, I find that Stormies fluff wise are glorified guard, they have honors and not much else. On the flip side, before people start calling me hypocritical on my stance that people are making too much of a big deal about hellgun upgrades... my FIRST 40K army was guard, and it was, still is, and prolly always will be, a mix of heavy armor and Stormtroopers. I like my armored spearhead, but now it is slightly weaker actually due to the new hellguns, should the rumors hold true. However, The Valks(should I take any besides the one I plan on getting simply to build it(which will probably go to my command squad anyway)) would make a good strike insertion, but chimeras will still and always work better for my army(fluff and game wise) then any new and fancy transport. Remember, the new stuff always has a disadvantage, with this... yes it is S3 AP3, with the only important thing for a strength being AP3, however, it is still a pitiful S3, with an 18 inch range, on a unit that has a total of 10 models. While they have the number of models as we do, let's look at the basic facts of this: -They are outranged by MEQ -Their stat line is still worse than MEQ -they HAVE to burn through our toughness with S3, which means bikers suddenly have a use again. Ally with some SMs -Against vehicles, S3 does NOTHING.... sit in rhinos and storm bolter them to hell if you fear them THAT much. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/4/#findComment-1897189 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prathios Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Thats a good looking translation of a french leaked document. Excuse me if I don't believe it right away. That is no more proof than the pictures of bigfoot. Until the codex is released with a big fat stamp of approval that document is no more real than the new Dark Eldar codex. Sure it looks accurate and all that but it could very easily be a fake. There was stuff like that "leaked" before the release of 4th ed as well and much of that turned out to be false. But all I can say is if it is true... I'll be very upset with GW... again. Seriously am I the only one that see's a huge problem with IG mowing down Necrons? If I remember correct the "We'll be back" rule gets owned by the fact that they get no armor save on this so they can't even get back up. So again I say that behold the Imperium is saved from this threat of Necron invasion, after all the Hellgun is like an instagib shockrifle from Unreal Tournament against Necrons. ST's > Necron Warrior = broken. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/4/#findComment-1897224 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 -They are outranged by MEQ Won't matter if they've got a Valkrie. Without a transport, STs are easily ignorable. But you can bet they will always have a transport, and most of the time it is likely to be a Valkrie. Killing the Valks will have be a high priority for IG opponents. -they HAVE to burn through our toughness with S3, which means bikers suddenly have a use again. Ally with some SMs-Against vehicles, S3 does NOTHING.... sit in rhinos and storm bolter them to hell if you fear them THAT much. Both of these points have merit. Just to paint the full picture -- not playing Devil's Advocate here -- you should know that, statistically, a full unit of stormies rapid-firing into a unit of Bikes will kill 2.22 of them, which is pretty significant considering most bike units are 3-5 models in size. And as much as SMs have plenty of weapons in their arsenal to pop enemy armour, you know that anti-armour is one of IG's strong points, and that isn't going to change with the new 'dex. Maybe you'll be able to hunker down in a Rhino until the STs are neutralized ... maybe not. Definitely not something you can count on. As I noted, neutralizing the STs is going to have to be a top priority for any power-armoured army. Being forced to focus on one uber-unit like that drastically changes the tactical balance of the game in the early going. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/4/#findComment-1897226 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Delias Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Just to paint the full picture -- not playing Devil's Advocate here -- you should know that, statistically, a full unit of stormies rapid-firing into a unit of Bikes will kill 2.22 of them, which is pretty significant considering most bike units are 3-5 models in size. Fair enough, but again... bolters outrange hellguns, which is key. Beleive me I know that IG have anti armor to no end... much to opponents dismay. and they are... if rumors hold true... getting more nastiness. But, as a cityfight specialist... I no longer play IG... simply too easy for me. As much as Valks will be used, I'm still not worried by them... and this is why: Valk Flat-outs, DSing STs and possibly killing 1 or 2, positioned NO MORE THAN 2 inches away from the Valk. Use a heavy weapon on Valk(which if my thoughts are correct, is the GEQ equivilent to a Tau Devilfish for armor rating), more than likely crack it with a heavy weapon, at most... suffer a destroyed roll, collateral damage the STs, Average roll, suffer immobilise, which still causes a destroyed result(due to skimmer), cause collateral damage to STs, least roll, shake the thing, giving you a nice target to pound on next turn. This is all assuming that the Valk DOESNT get its 4+ cover for moving flat out. I am actually more worried by the street sweeper lists 2 max guard platoons, max Hellhounds, max punisher Russes.... that list WILL lay some hurt on any list you take to them... It's what I would use at least, if I chose to be evil about things. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/4/#findComment-1897293 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verythrax Draconis Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Sorry but... I was sticking to the fantas... idea that all the newer "5th" codices were supposed to be in same level with each other, with only the 4th ed or below codices biting the dust (well FAQs were supposed to keep the older codices on the same pace, but I'm not THAT deluded). But now it simply doesn't hold true anymore. I was jumping around happily believing that finally all armies would be balanced at the end of the 5th ed cicle, but I'm losing that hope. I'm missing something? I was alone making a fool of myself like this? :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/4/#findComment-1897341 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cath Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Remember ladies and gentlemen, everything (aside from Techpriests and Sisters) is T4. you don't roll that many 5's. Stormtroopers are an elite choice, they're 15 points, and they're still fragile as hell. Guard got a 1 trick pony that has a very respectable 1 trick, but its still just 1 trick pony. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/4/#findComment-1897346 Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tiger Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Seriously am I the only one that see's a huge problem with IG mowing down Necrons? to be honest I couldn't care less about necron players, they seriously need taking down a peg or two, not there army, just there players, be nice to wipe the smirks off there faces muhahaha Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/4/#findComment-1897362 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanter Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 I dont think so. The hellgun is now useful, but not lame. Even when firing at a normal MEQ squad the stormtroopers will be toast in the next cc phase. Thinking about the stormtroopers as a suicide unit isnot right. They won't be. If you've never been on the receiving end of a Tau "fish of fury", then perhaps you're not aware that when such a maneuver is pulled succesfully, the bulk of the transport vehicle itself will prevent any charges by the enemy into close combat. The distance the fired-upon unit would have to travel to close in for assault is easily managed to be more than 12". Remember that an enemy can never get closer than 1" to any enemy unit -- vehicles (skimmers!) included -- yet a skimmer does not (normally) block line of sight while perched on its flying stand. So the disembarking unit can easily be within rapid-fire range yet be entirely safe from an enemy assault. They'll be subject to return fire, but not a return assault. Then the MEQ will have 4+ cover - the advantage AP3 generates is gone. Another ting is TLOS. You cant fire unter or through 4th-edi-style skimmers. Models need to be unter 12" in order to rapidefire and have LOS. There has to be a model that is a legaly chargeable. Pleas show me that I am wrong, but I had a long talk with some eldar guy trying to shoot through his wave serpent - just 'fish-o-fury' style. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/4/#findComment-1897379 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prathios Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Seriously am I the only one that see's a huge problem with IG mowing down Necrons? to be honest I couldn't care less about necron players, they seriously need taking down a peg or two, not there army, just there players, be nice to wipe the smirks off there faces muhahaha Its about the fluff man, I don't care about what plays good or bad in the game or what players act cocky. Necron players have a reason to be cocky they play the scariest guys in 40k. But from a fluff standpoint even elite troops of the IG should get mowed down in short order against an even number of necron warriors. And a hellgun should not be able to keep them down. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/4/#findComment-1897388 Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tiger Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 And a hellgun should not be able to keep them down. won't make any difference, when did you not see necrons with 1 or 2 res orbs, so they can still get up Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/4/#findComment-1897405 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Then the MEQ will have 4+ cover - the advantage AP3 generates is gone. Another ting is TLOS. You cant fire unter or through 4th-edi-style skimmers. Models need to be unter 12" in order to rapidefire and have LOS. There has to be a model that is a legaly chargeable. Pleas show me that I am wrong, but I had a long talk with some eldar guy trying to shoot through his wave serpent - just 'fish-o-fury' style. ;) There's nothing complicated about this. There are no cover saves involved, TLoS doesn't prevent anything from happening as I've outlined it. Let's take Tau as the prototypical example. Provided the player mounts the vehicle on the standard flying base the model comes with -- as they're supposed to do -- the very bottom of the skimmer will be taller than the tallest normal infantry model by about 1/4+ inches. Thus the vehicle doesn't block line of sight. Without any line of sight blockage, the fire warriors aren't actually firing "through" anything, and there is also nothing between the FWs and their targets to provide them a cover save. So shooting is free and clear. Despite this, no model -- friend or foe -- is allowed to occupy the board space beneath the skimmer. Foes, in fact, must circumvent the space the skimmer occupies by at least 1". Thus the firing models (fire warriors) can easily all be within rapid fire range (a devilfish is about 8" in length) and yet be far enough away that their target unit must walk more than 12" to reach them for an assault. Effectively, absolutely nothing has changed since 4th edition. Back in 4th edition, skimmers never blocked line of sight. Now they block whatever line of sight they actually block from the viewpoint of the affected models. In this case, there is no line of sight blockage, so nothing has effectively changed in this situation. The Valkrie is a skimmer, and I would assume it would be mounted on a standard flying base, in which case -- as STs are no larger than fire warriors -- they should also be able to draw clear line of sight beneath the skimmer to their target unit once they have disembarked, and yet maintain enough distance such that the bulk of the Valkrie itself will prevent that target unit from reaching the STs in an assault. (Remember, multiple models cannot occupy the same board space, and all models must always move such that they are a minimum of 1" away from enemy models.) Without seeing how your Eldar friend modeled his Wave Serpent, I can't speak to how legal his maneuver was in your case. However, if the Serpent was modeled on a standard GW flying base (such as what surely came with the model), than the Eldar models are short enough to draw unobstructed line of sight beneath it to their own targets "fish of fury" style. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/4/#findComment-1897478 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadshane Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 WOW! :lol: Bunch of chicken littles in here! The sky is most assuradly NOT falling you guys, I assure you! Stormtroopers with AP 3 guns in fast moving Valkaries awesome? Sure they are. DH's suffering for it? No we arent. We still have the same list, points havent changed, neither have abilities. Our armies will run exactly the same with the exception of any new allies we bring from the new Guard 'dex. I'll be happy to continue to use my mini Stormtrooper squad to capture my deployment zone's objective with the five guys....they dont shoot much now...they wont shoot much in the future. Doesnt matter a bean to me if they've got AP3 since my stormtroopers rarely shoot anyway. They hide and grab. AP3 isnt nearly as scary as you guys are making it out to be either...not even to marines. Lets not forget the rampant amount of cover saves that are out there. Everything pretty much always has a 4+ save regardless concerning shooting anyway. Marines will be a little miffed at AP3 Lasguns....nothing more. They arent game breaking. If AP3 was still that effective at taking out marines, I dont think all the eldar players would've traded in their starcannons for Scatterlasers....which they did. Look at the way codexes (and indeed even fantasy armies) are getting toys that other players are claiming "break the game", and yet somehow we all keep playing our respective games...adjusting to the enemies new apparent abilities. AT WORST, the Warhammer games (fantasy AND 40k) are starting to see combo's and units that equal the brokenness of some combo's that are used in Warmachine/Hordes (if you're at all familiar with those systems) Those series of games have used that formula from the get-go....broken combo's and "My cheese beats your cheese"...thats what those games are all about and they're hugely successful as a competetor for GW. It simply appears to myself as GW has seen this and turned it around as an opportunity to sell new models, especially using "broken" rules to make sure the Stegadon sells well, Sternguard do well, and now the new Valkarie and Stormtroopers get GREAT rules....big surprise, I think not. ....But hurting the game? Again, I dont think so. There are guys here complaining about AP3 lasguns as if the game is coming to an end. Need I remind anyone of the monstrous abomination in 40k that are dual Nob biker lists? Nob Bikers are still out there....but people have still been playing....indeed they're starting to learn how to fight them. AP3 lasguns may be nice for guard, but they're no Nob Biker Squadron, and 40k will go on. As far as DH's not getting the new AP3 treat, this is nothing new guys, you should be used to it by now. Just wait for your own codex to come out. Be patient, wait for the sculptors to get some new Grey Knight models done to be cast in plastics along with a new Inquisitor in terminator/power armour....then you'll get your rules that you want so badly, and everyone else will be complaining about how broken Grey Knights are.....because GW will want to sell those new plastics....and guess what.... ....40k will go on. Be patient. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/4/#findComment-1897892 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Doesnt matter a bean to me if they've got AP3 since my stormtroopers rarely shoot anyway your ST wont have ap3 , just like your storm shields are not INV+3 . Fair enough, but again... bolters outrange hellguns, which is key. what range ? have you seen eldar have problems with range ? fast moving skimers and 18" range will always let them be in range . This is all assuming that the Valk DOESNT get its 4+ cover for moving flat out. its a fast skimer. plus your advice to take bikes is somehow strange . unless you play DW/RW or a khan build list [or tailor lists to an opponent] then a normal list will not have other bikes then attack bikes with meltas. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/4/#findComment-1898016 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Delias Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 your ST wont have ap3 , just like your storm shields are not INV+3 . I assume he means by taking allies, since he himself noted the stormsheild quandry what range ? have you seen eldar have problems with range ? fast moving skimers and 18" range will always let them be in range . I have seen that, and have attributed them GETTING in range to poor strategy, I have thusly learned from it, and have taken to using the same strategy as I use for both Tau, and destroying Tau. They are not nearly as fast as when you destroy the skimmer. and as a FAST skimmer, it will more than likely have poor armor. its a fast skimer. plus your advice to take bikes is somehow strange . unless you play DW/RW or a khan build list [or tailor lists to an opponent] then a normal list will not have other bikes then attack bikes with meltas. Actually, this is simply an example of using on fast unit against another. Veteran Vanguard with meltabombs should work wonders too. works well against any other vehicle... don't see how this wouldn't help out. and since we CAN take 1 fast choice from allies, I don't see this being a problem. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/4/#findComment-1898414 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Veteran Vanguard with meltabombs should work wonders too. works well against any other vehicle... don't see how this wouldn't help out. and since we CAN take 1 fast choice from allies, I don't see this being a problem. It's impossible to get vanguard vets into either DH or WH armies. The allying rules in the Inquisitorial codexes apply to the Inquisitorial army units only. The allying/induction rules for SM/IG are entirely different. They specifically name the limited subset of SM/IG units may be inducted, under what conditions they may be inducted (e.g., must still take 1 HQ + 2 Troops from Inquisitorial codex, no Marines if taking GKs or SoBs, etc.), and what force org slots in the Inquisition army they occupy. Vanguard vets are not on that list, and if you're talking about taking Marines into your Inquisition list to begin with, you don't have GKs or SoBs, which would be the units most strongly affected by the new hellguns. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/4/#findComment-1898423 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissia Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Heh, you're trying to say WH armies are going to have a problem? Valks will get downed by exorcist fire if the stormies inside really prove to be a problem. That's one of hte purposes of the Exorcist after all, to destroy transports that are trying to get dangerous troops close to your Sisters (usually these would be assaulters, but in the Guard's case there's not much in the way of assaulters, so eh) Now, DH armies, yes, they'll probably have problems, they always have had problems against vehicles. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/4/#findComment-1898497 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Delias Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 apologies 6, simple misread, not that I have my dex at work anyway.... Aside from the fact that I take DH as allies anyway... and even then only the Inquisitor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/4/#findComment-1898533 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prathios Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 I was under the impression if you ally with DH and take an Inquisitor with a Space Marine army as your main you couldn't use Grey Knights... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/4/#findComment-1898587 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 I was under the impression if you ally with DH and take an Inquisitor with a Space Marine army as your main you couldn't use Grey Knights... People often confuse Inquisitorial allying with Imperial army induction. These are not mirror-image nor equivalent processes. If you're an Inquisitorial base army, you induct Imperial troops -- from either Marines or Guard -- using one set of rules. If you're an Imperial army -- either Marines or Guard -- you ally with Inquisitorial units using a different set of rules. In the case of induction (base Inquisition army bringing in units from SM or IG codex) you can't include both Marines and GKs/SoBs at the same time. In the case of allying (base SM or IG army bringing in units from DH or WH codexes, or both) no such restriction exists. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/4/#findComment-1898673 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Fox Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Fluffwise it works like this. Imagine a group of Space Marines are on a world, and they start finding some really freaky stuff. Suddenly like a godsend out of nowhere comes an Inquisitor and a unit of Grey Knights. They instantly assume command of the situation and order the Space Marines to assist. The evil is eradicated, there is selective memory wiping if deemed necessary, and the Inquisitor and Grey Knights fade back into the shadows from whence they came. (A space marine force may take allies from the Inquisition books by the guidelines listed there) This is the same scenario if there is an Imperial Guard force instead of Space Marines. Now... a totally seperate example is the induction of other forces: An Inquisitor is on a planet and begins to find signs of corruption and possible daemonic invasion. He knows he needs more forces, and he needs them NOW. So, he gets on the horn and tries to rustle up some Grey Knights... sadly that's a no go. He is desperate, so he puts out a call for any and all Imperial Forces to get their butts to his location pronto. Some Imperial Guardsmen and a Space Marine tactical squad show up. He takes these forces and his own personal Storm Troopers and goes out to kick some Chaos butt. (An Inquisition army can induct Space Marine or Imperial Guard forces. However, if Space Marines are used, no Grey Knights/Sisters of Battle may be taken. No such restriction exists for Imperial Guard forces) This represents the fact that the Inquisitor in question will always use Inquisition forces if possible. Space Marines are inducted only in times of great need and desperation, only when no Grey Knights/Sisters are available. This fluff is represented by the restriction writen into the Induction rules. This is a case where the fluff really does fit the rules, and vice versa. For once :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/4/#findComment-1898762 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verythrax Draconis Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 You summed the things pretty well. That's exaclty how I understood those rules, but the language barrier (I'm not american/britsih) wouldn't allow me to do it that good. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/4/#findComment-1898805 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prathios Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Ok so whats the rational behind not allowing you to induct say... Black Templars or Blood Angels. I know of TONS of situations where the BT have been working under inquisitorial authority, and I see no reason that the Ordo Malleus would be suspicious of the Blood Angles or Space Wolves. *Dark Angels just hate everyone, it get that.* I can see WH not allying with BT or SW or BA but why wont they allow it that way, but you can choose those teams and take inquisitorial allies. Its very confusing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/4/#findComment-1898848 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissia Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 IIRC, I think you can. You can induct Space Marines of any kind, at least I know there's inducted Dark Angels at least because the are (IIRC) rules about that in the DA FAQ. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/4/#findComment-1898868 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 IIRC, I think you can. You can induct Space Marines of any kind, at least I know there's inducted Dark Angels at least because the are (IIRC) rules about that in the DA FAQ. Sadly, an Inquisition army can only induct from Codex: Space Marines. Traits no longer exist, so that restriction no longer matters. However, it does mean that if you have BA, BT, DA, or SW as your SM models, you must play them with rules from Codex: Space Marines and not their own specialized codexes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/4/#findComment-1898885 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 You can induct the colour scheme, but not the rules. Though you can ally DH/WH in to those armies. As for why, I think it's to avoid confusion, and so that they don't have to make up an induction chart for each codex. Remember you can only induct certain units, the BT don't have tactical squads for example, so would be unable to use the induction chart for SM, similarly, the BA/DA have scouts an elites, but on the chart they're troops. See the problem? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161108-of-the-new-hellguns-and-pistols/page/4/#findComment-1898886 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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