Penitant Titan

[Clishay]

I started a corresponding thread in the PC&A forums to track the progress of the actual model. What I've come to y'all for is to bend your keen intellects towards critiqing and commenting on the rules and fluf, to make sure I'm in line (at least mostly) with the spirit of the SoB.

 

This will be a superheavy vehicle roughly in line with the warhound titan in terms of size and durability. My thought being, if one heretic can power a dreadnaught sized machine, surely 6 to 9 (when properly motivated) could power a titan with their zeal.

 

To that end, the datasheet would look something like this:

 

Penitent Titan

Superheavy Walker

F/S/R AV: 13/12/11

3 structure points

2 void shields

 

Armarment:

twin linked hellstrom flamer S5 AP3

2 Titan CCW's

 

Special Rules:

Follow the regular Penitent Engine special rules for frenzy and shooting

 

650 pts ish

 

So, what do you think? Too broken? Too underpowered? Too cheap/expensive? I still feel relatively new to the imperium, and have certainly never tried making up rules for something like this. I'm shooting for something that fits (mostly) within the fluff and is balanced.

[Prathios]

I can't really comment on its points or effectiveness. What I can say is the mechanicus probably want you dead for sacrilege. :)

[GodwynDi]

One quick point, penitent engines are not devices of the SoB. They are part of the ecclesiarchy. As such, and that the ecclesiarchy is not really supposed to have an army any more, having a titan seems off.

 

However, as SoB have no fun toys for apoc, other than perhaps references in the recent WD that may or may not refer to special apoc rules, new toys are fun.

 

Unable to look at apoc book at the moment to reference other point values.

[Clishay]

I can't really comment on its points or effectiveness. What I can say is the mechanicus probably want you dead for sacrilege. ;)

 

 

I'll just have to strap them into it a week from saturday then :)

 

One quick point, penitent engines are not devices of the SoB. They are part of the ecclesiarchy. As such, and that the ecclesiarchy is not really supposed to have an army any more, having a titan seems off.

 

Ah, the downside to not actually owning a WH codex. This does throw a pretty large stick in my spokes...

 

I guess it won't coincide with the fluff as much as I'd like, the beast is still getting made though.

[GodwynDi]

Not necessarily, just have to find a loophole for it to work. Just like the "no men at arms" gave rise to the SoB serving the ecclesiarchy. Its a "Mobile shrine to turn heretics to The Emperor's will" that just happens to be very useful in combat

[Grand Master Tyrak]

GodwynDi Posted Today, 06:34 PM

Not necessarily, just have to find a loophole for it to work. Just like the "no men at arms" gave rise to the SoB serving the ecclesiarchy. Its a "Mobile shrine to turn heretics to The Emperor's will" that just happens to be very useful in combat

 

The Sororitas break the spirit but not the letter of the Decree Passive but are tolerated because they serve as the Ordo Hereticus' Chamber Militant. Trying to claim its OK because a Titan is not a "man under arms" will make the Inquisition raise their eyebrows and then shoot you. If the Mechanicum doesn't get there first.

 

Besides which, you need to be exceptionally strong-willed to control a Battle-Titan, otherwise the Machine Spirit overrides your personality. That's why the AdMech round up any they can find. Personally, I don't think those that has succumbed to the temptations of heresy are particularly strong-willed.

 

Perhaps some kind of larger Penitent Engine, along the size and lines of the Mechanicum Knights. If you want a real Titan it will be practically impossible to reconcile with fluff.

[Silber]

I thought that it is a problem in regards to the Decree Passive to have an ecclesiarchic Titan, but I really think it should work somehow. There's these huge tracked cathedral from one of the Witchunter artworks that springs to mind, for example. I'm sure it has guns on there.... I mean, come on, sure they shouldn't have one. Sure the Inquisition won't be amused, but they'd find a way.

 

By the way, I don't think that by Decree Passive it would be legal to have Penitent Engines, either....

[Prathios]

the only real fluff problem you need to reconcile is this. How are you going to get a Mechanicus adept to pilot it. Titans require teams of specialists to pilot their machines that take decades to train before they are qualified to do it. ONLY the mechanicus has these agents. That's one of many reasons that Titans are only found in Mechanicus armies. Obviously they are used in battle by the Imperium under the mutual agreements signed by the Mechanicus and Imperium but are under the full and total authority of the Mechanicum. You could say the =I= requisitioned it... but that doesn't work because technically they have no authority over the Adeptus Titanicus. A polite request from an inquisitor would carry a great deal of weight but I doubt any orders would be followed.

 

So again, how are you going to make this beast move? And second how was it acquired and maintained without mechanicus sanction? I'm not saying its impossible to justify but Titans are not given away for almost any reason at all. I'd really be interested in hearing how this can be worked into the fluff. Off the top of my head the only thing i can think of that might net you a titan is saving the life of the fabricator general of mars. Even then he'd prolly give you something else cool since a warlord or emperator titan is worth a planet. Then you gotta come up with a reason the exceptionally rare princeps (pilots) would be "donated" to the sisters. Each of those guys are worth the lives of billions.

 

Thats a pretty high hurdle to jump to get around the fluff. Not impossible but dang near.

[Melissia]

The Sororitas break the spirit but not the letter of the Decree Passive but are tolerated because they serve as the Ordo Hereticus' Chamber Militant.

No. THey are accepted because they are also there to regulate the Ecclesiarchy as much as they are to propogate its Wars of Faith. The agreement to the Ordo Hereticus has nothing to do with it-- that came quite some time AFTER the Adepta Sororitas were formed.

[jeffersonian000]

A Penitent Titan actually sounds kind of fun, a fluffy! Well, fluffy if you are into pain and spiky bits. The Ecclesiarchy does not necessarily require the Mechanicus to build and maintain such a Titan as the OP proposes. It can easily be a scratch built war engine thrown together to fight back a massive threat that requires a "titanic" response. Just build an over-sized frame based on the same ancient STC as the Ecclesiarchy controlled Penitent Engine and plug-in readily available servitors to control all the motions. I can even see the local Cardinal standing at the front of the beast on a golden dais screaming down to the masses a litany of hate and invective to motivate the mob's fighting spirit!

 

I'm cool with it, and yes, I think it fits in with the 40k just fine.

 

SJ

[Melissia]

and one idea is that it would have multiple penitents in it, perhaps a huge number of them hooked up to it.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Ecclesiarchy does not necessarily require the Mechanicus to build and maintain such a Titan as the OP proposes. It can easily be a scratch built war engine thrown together to fight back a massive threat that requires a "titanic" response.

 

How? The AdMech have an absolute monopoly on technology, you don't just find the designs for a Titan lying around. Plus if you go round "scratch-building" the AdMech will have you shot for the tech-heresy of invention.

[Melissia]

Which really only applies to military hardware, as I sincerely doubt that admech will care if some schmuck on a semimodern world invents a toaster, but I suppsoe taht's off-topic.

[jeffersonian000]

Ecclesiarchy does not necessarily require the Mechanicus to build and maintain such a Titan as the OP proposes. It can easily be a scratch built war engine thrown together to fight back a massive threat that requires a "titanic" response.

 

How? The AdMech have an absolute monopoly on technology, you don't just find the designs for a Titan lying around. Plus if you go round "scratch-building" the AdMech will have you shot for the tech-heresy of invention.

 

Last I checked, the Adeptus Mechanicus is a separate empire wholly with in the Empire of Man, has its own hierarchy, its own government, and its own religion. They hold the Emperor of Man in the highest esteem, naming him the Omnissiah, a living focus of the Machine Spirit which was foretold to be the savior of Mars. The Mechanicus supplies manufactured goods to everyone in both empires, while the Empire of Man supplies bodies and trade markets. They have a symbiotic relationship.

 

The Ecclesiarchy, on the other hand, is a branch of the Empire of Man's government, rules worlds in its own right, and is constantly at odds with the Cult Mechanicus. They see the Emperor is the God of Humanity, and use that image as the basis for their control of the body of humanity. They acquire equipment and resources through the tithing of their subjects. The Ecclesiarchy deals with the Mechanicus with kid gloves, as they need the Machine Cult to survive. However, we know that the Ecclesiarchy controls the STC for Immolators and the Exorcist launcher, as the Mechanicus is under obligation to only supply those systems to the Ecclesiarchy and no one else. We can assume that the Mechanicus create the servitors and Arco-flagellants that service the Ecclesiarchy, and it does appear that the Ecclesiarchy hordes artifacts in their treasury such as the Throne of Judgment and penitent engines. It is also apparent that Sisters of Battle tend to their own equipment rather than rely of the Machine Cult for assistance.

 

So, to bring this back on topic, why would the Ecclesiarchy need the Mechanicus to field a Titan of their own? Or better yet, why would the Machine Cult support their biggest rival? The answer to both questions is that they don't. The Ecclesiarchy can fund the construction of planet-sized temples bricked in gold, and if they want something within reason all they need to do is demand it. Like a Titan.

 

Another point of fact is that Titan pre-date the Adeptus Mechanicus, as they are artifacts of the Dark Age of Technology and were used on Earth by the Emperor before he arrived on Mars and was declared the Omnissiah.

 

Which brings me to my point: the Ecclesiarchy has power, money, manpower, and vaults full of spare parts. Cardinal decrees, “make it so!” And then behold, it was made so!

 

SJ

[Eltnot]

Which brings me to my point: the Ecclesiarchy has power, money, manpower, and vaults full of spare parts. Cardinal decrees, “make it so!” And then behold, it was made so!

Cardinal is excommunicated from the Ecclesiarchy for heretical actions and trying to start another War of Faith. Said Cardinal then either flees, or is made to disappear (The Ecclesiarchy will prefer option B ).

 

Fact:

Space Marines are a strike force and as such have no reason to use something as big as a titan for themselves. If they need the assistance of one in a conflict, then then is also going to be the need for a large amount of Imperial Guard.

 

Fact:

Sisters of Battle generally fight as a strike force and as such have no reason to use something as big as a titan for themselves. If they need the assistance of one in a conflict, then then is also going to be the need for a large amount of Imperial Guard.

 

Fact:

If you are making a Space Marine/Sister of Battle/Deamonhunter/whatever other idea you have in your crazy head, then fluff wise it will be considered an act of heresy and treason, and whatever force they are fighting with will find themselves being chased somewhere.

 

Fact:

Titan size weapons of war, and in fact anything bigger then a Lemun Russ, are the sole domain of the Adeptus Mechanicus. (Note the Space Marines do have larger vehicles, eg Land Raider, but these are maintained by Tech Marines who are part of the Adeptus Mechanicus... and no, they are not trained to make titans!)

 

By all means, make a penitent titan, but accept fluff wise that you are making it as a weapon that will be used against the Imperium, not for.

[jeffersonian000]

You have an awful lot of "facts" there, yet are any of them actually facts?

 

One man ruled the Empire for decades, and he wasn't the Emperor. Yes, he was eventually put down and laws were put of place to prevent such an occurrence from happening again, yet that only covers galaxy spanning issues and is enforced buy the Sister of Battle internally and the Ordo Hereticus externally.

 

Space Marines use to have Baneblades as part of their armory. Also, here's a point of fact: Space Marine chapters manufacture their own Land Raiders and Rhino chassis, not the Mechanicus. Here is another: a Space Marine company rides in and secure Emperor class Titans, assaulting from the lower bastions. They also ride in and assault from Corvus boarding arms mounted to Warlord Titans. And, of course, Rogue Traders tend to have a company of Space Marines at their beck and call. Oh! And Space Marine Chapters have their own space fleets, while the Mechanicus does not.

 

Sisters of Battle are self supporting yet do not manufacture their own equipment, nor do they have their own spacecraft. They are, however, the militant arm of the Ordo Hereticus, which can request Titanicus assistance. Also, Sisters do not ask others for assistance, they offer their services to those in need.

 

Heresy is determined by the victor, not the vanquished. And who said anything about stepping outside of their purview? Isn't it the responsibility of the Ecclesiarchy to guard their flock?

 

Ordinatus are the soul domain of the Mechanicus. Titan Legions are the soul domain of the Mechanicus. Baneblades and their variants? Imperial Guard and Planetary Defense Forces. And yes, Mechanicus have their own Guard units, called Tech Guard. Also, Knight Titans work with the Mechanicus, not for the Mechanicus.

 

Yes, by all means, build a Penitent Titan, it’s a cool concept, its fluffy, and it sounds a hell of a lot more survivable and therefore useful that the run of the mill Penitent Engine!

 

SJ

[Grand Master Tyrak]

And, of course, Rogue Traders tend to have a company of Space Marines at their beck and call.

Where on earth did you get that from? Space Marines are at nobody's beck and call except the Emperor, that is the fundamental part of their autonomy.

 

Oh! And Space Marine Chapters have their own space fleets, while the Mechanicus does not.

 

Space Marine Chapters are restricted to ships specialising in planetary assault, with only the small escorts being allowed to be pure gunboats. The Mechanicus on the other hand is allowed full proper fleets - I give you the BFG Mechanicus Rules.

 

Isn't it the responsibility of the Ecclesiarchy to guard their flock?

 

Spiritually, yes. Militarily, the Ecclesiarchy is supposed to ask for Guard/Marines/Mechanicus troops for a War of Faith, with the Inquisition watching to make sure the Cardinal in charge doesn't get to big for his boots.

[Prathios]

You have an awful lot of "facts" there, yet are any of them actually facts?

 

One man ruled the Empire for decades, and he wasn't the Emperor. Yes, he was eventually put down and laws were put of place to prevent such an occurrence from happening again, yet that only covers galaxy spanning issues and is enforced buy the Sister of Battle internally and the Ordo Hereticus externally.

 

Space Marines use to have Baneblades as part of their armory. Also, here's a point of fact: Space Marine chapters manufacture their own Land Raiders and Rhino chassis, not the Mechanicus. Here is another: a Space Marine company rides in and secure Emperor class Titans, assaulting from the lower bastions. They also ride in and assault from Corvus boarding arms mounted to Warlord Titans. And, of course, Rogue Traders tend to have a company of Space Marines at their beck and call. Oh! And Space Marine Chapters have their own space fleets, while the Mechanicus does not.

 

Sisters of Battle are self supporting yet do not manufacture their own equipment, nor do they have their own spacecraft. They are, however, the militant arm of the Ordo Hereticus, which can request Titanicus assistance. Also, Sisters do not ask others for assistance, they offer their services to those in need.

 

Heresy is determined by the victor, not the vanquished. And who said anything about stepping outside of their purview? Isn't it the responsibility of the Ecclesiarchy to guard their flock?

 

Ordinatus are the soul domain of the Mechanicus. Titan Legions are the soul domain of the Mechanicus. Baneblades and their variants? Imperial Guard and Planetary Defense Forces. And yes, Mechanicus have their own Guard units, called Tech Guard. Also, Knight Titans work with the Mechanicus, not for the Mechanicus.

 

Yes, by all means, build a Penitent Titan, it’s a cool concept, its fluffy, and it sounds a hell of a lot more survivable and therefore useful that the run of the mill Penitent Engine!

 

SJ

 

You got a lot of facts mixed up there. Tyrak already pointed out about the marines and the fleet point but i thought it needed reinforcement. The Mechanicus not only has its own space fleets it has massive space fleets. The mechanicus could for all intents and purposes go to war with the imperium and do very well, its got everything it needs to sustain itself. The only reason it has such a symbiosis relationship with the Imperium is that the top adepts understand neither the imperium or mechanicus could hold off all their mutual enemies without each other.

 

You also misunderstand that even though weapons like Land Raiders and Bane Blades are owned an operated by the Marines and Gaurd they are maintained by *drum roll* the mechanicus as only they can maintain ancient STC equipment. All those Space Marine Forges where bolters and rhinos are created, are operated by the tech marines who are members of the mechanicus.

 

If you aren't part of the Adeptus Titanicus you dont have titans. Thats pretty much an unbroken rule. Again its not impossible for the inquisition to get one, keep it, and have the blessings of the Mechanicus needed to pilot and maintain it is just 99.9% unlikely.

[Castus Xanthis]

Since when can Inquisitors be refused by anyone? They carry the full power of the Emperor himself. If an Inquisitor wants something, he/she gets it. This includes titans and other weapons of war. The only people who can stop an Inquisitor are other Inquisitors and the Emperor himself.

[Prathios]

Since when can Inquisitors be refused by anyone? They carry the full power of the Emperor himself. If an Inquisitor wants something, he/she gets it. This includes titans and other weapons of war. The only people who can stop an Inquisitor are other Inquisitors and the Emperor himself.

 

The authority of the Emperor of mankind only means something when the person you're speaking to recognizes it. Inquisitors can be refused by the Mechanicum because they do not serve the emperor, they serve the omnissiah. Its mincing words to some degree but its how they view it. But there are two factions within the Mechanicum and one of those factions does not believe that the omnissiah and the emperor are the same thing. The factions are actually divided fairly equally if Dan Abnett is to be believed (and he is... his word is law, believe it!). But the Mechanicum is in no way shape or form under the authority of the Inquisition. But again do to the treaties and such they work very closely and even respect a military chain of command on the battlefield. But if an Inquisitor told a princeps to hand over his titan the only thing he would be getting is a vulcan mega bolter up his butt.

[Castus Xanthis]

Then the offending titan would be struck down by a lance strike. Because they worship the omnissiah does not mean they are not governed by the inquisition. They are human after all.

[Prathios]

Its not that simple, the Mechanicum actually owns space. Without their assistance the entire Imperium Navy would grind to a halt. That lance strike would have to A.) penetrate the titans shields and B ) even get a shot off considering that Titan deployment is assisted by the Mechanicus navy and they would immediately fire on any ship targeting their Titans.

 

Many Mechanicus adepts are not human. They ceased to be human long ago when they became more machine than men. Again though the Mechanicus is for all intents and purposes a totally separate body from the Imperium of man. I know its hard to grasp but Mars is technically not an Imperial world.

 

Iquisitors have zero authority to order a mechanicus agent. However if a little tech adept were in a room with an inquisitor and he said jump that adept would launch himself without a thought. The only time this chain of command breaks down is when you get much higher up the food chain such as a Titan Princeps. Or a Magos. The fabricator general of Mars would scoff at an Inquisitor because he is more or less more powerful than even the high lords of terra as he is the central authority of the Mechanicus and responsible for the survival of the human species (even if he is like 85% machine.)

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Castus Xanthis Posted Today, 04:23 PM

Since when can Inquisitors be refused by anyone? They carry the full power of the Emperor himself. If an Inquisitor wants something, he/she gets it. This includes titans and other weapons of war. The only people who can stop an Inquisitor are other Inquisitors and the Emperor himself.

 

Space Marines can refuse the Inquisition on the spot because of their military strength, and if they can provide a good reason for doing so at their formal trial (Space Marine Chapters can demand one, along with high-ranking members of the Ecclesiarchy). The Mechanicus technically has jurisdiction over their forgeworlds (although they are not immune from Inquisitorial scrutiny as a whole), so that can lead to some wrangling over who dispenses justice in which cases.

 

The fabricator general of Mars would scoff at an Inquisitor because he is more or less more powerful than even the high lords of terra as he is the central authority of the Mechanicus

 

He is one of the High Lords. They aren't immune to Inquisitorial scrutiny.

[Prathios]

The fabricator general of Mars would scoff at an Inquisitor because he is more or less more powerful than even the high lords of terra as he is the central authority of the Mechanicus

 

He is one of the High Lords. They aren't immune to Inquisitorial scrutiny.

 

While I didn't want to over complicate this more than it already is, yes he is. But this can't be anything more than politics. While I admit that is conjecture it is the only logical conclusion i can draw from the situation. He wields more power than the other by a good margin and while they are indeed not above inquisitorial scrutiny, he is.

 

Lets go down that path a bit. Lets say an inquisitor did indeed bring him up on charges with being a heretic. What then? Would the rest of the inquisition risk an Imperium wide civil war over that? If an inquisitor ever tried anything against him he risks bringing the entire human race to ruin. So that =I= looks good on paper when you deal with mechanicus but its limitations in this situation become readily apparent. Even if one did come up with some charges another inquisitor would likely kill him to keep him from doing anything about it.

 

Out of curiosity have you by chance read Titanicus? It sheds some wonderful light into the inner workings of the Titan legions and the mechanicus as a whole. There are very few situations where an inquisitors power isn't absolute, this is just one of those few.

[Kaled100]

Since when can Inquisitors be refused by anyone?

Technically, they can't. The Inquisitorial Mandate technically gives Inquisitors absolute power, their authority exceeds even that of the High Lords - however in practice it's not that simple. Inquisitorial authority may be absolute, but their authority is only as good as their ability to enforce it.

 

For example, although the Inquisitorial Mandate superceeds the Treaty of Mars thus giving an Inquisitor authority over the AdMech, even down to giving them jurisdiction on Forge Worlds - in practice there are certain requests that the AdMech are not going to comply with and in those cases there is little leverage an Inquisitor can use against an organisation that has a virtual monopoly over all technology in the Imperium.

 

It's a similar situation with the Astartes. The Inquisitorial Mandate gives an Inquisitor authority over the Astartes, but Chapters value their autonomy and do not like being ordered about. Hence why it is generally considered best for an Inquisitor to 'request' the assistance of marines. Attempting to force your authority on a thousand of the most powerful and well equipped warriors in the Imperium is almost impossible - there is little an Inquisitor can use as leverage on a Chapter.

 

Personally, I don't buy the idea of a Penitent Titan - the AdMech aren't going to build one for the Ecclesiarchy. And if the Ecclesiarchy did manage to get their hands on a titan-like warmachine, such a thing would be valuable beyond compare - they're not likely to hand it over to a bunch of heretics to play with. I reckon that if you want a super-heavy war machine for the Sororitas, you should build a Baneblade recommissioned as an armed mobile shrine. Or something even bigger as a mobile cathedral.