Tigrinus Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 I've been playing loyalists for awhile, and just recently sold my soul to chaos. Naturally, the differences between the two codices have me a little perplexed. My question is this: what are the fluff reasons for CSM not having strom bolters? Granted, I kind of like the TL bolters, but I was just curious. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161646-csm-storm-bolters/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otniel Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Previous to the Heresy series, the fluff seemed to indicate that SBs were a later development, however the new novels have all the Lgions using them. I'm curious as well for fluff justifications. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161646-csm-storm-bolters/#findComment-1898439 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Yep, Stormbolters were developed long after the heresy. Twin-Linked Bolters are an early version of them. The Horus Heresy novels are incorrect in this respect. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161646-csm-storm-bolters/#findComment-1898558 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 unless your reneged sm chapter , then no one knows what happens to storm bolters plasma canons , where are the speeders and where did you get those auto canons and combi bolters en mass. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161646-csm-storm-bolters/#findComment-1898565 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roultox Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 1 Bolter round is .11 (or 1/9) chance to kill another marine. 2 shots, .22 chance. However, the TLBG or, combi bolter as it was widely known. Has a different touch. With rerolls 1 shot has a .13 chance to kill a marine, reducing it into the 1/7 fraction range. Becoming a 2/7 chance when in rapid fire range, rather then a 2/9 chance a storm bolter gets. In short, chaos terminators are superior at close range, and loyalist terminators have the option to stay back and fire. The reaper autocannon and one shot combi-plasma is no excuse to stay long range. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161646-csm-storm-bolters/#findComment-1898655 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperialis_Dominatus Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 unless your reneged sm chapter , then no one knows what happens to storm bolters plasma canons , where are the speeders and where did you get those auto canons and combi bolters en mass. Which is why they shouldn't try to mix the two. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161646-csm-storm-bolters/#findComment-1898790 Share on other sites More sharing options...
darth_giles Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Yep, Stormbolters were developed long after the heresy. Twin-Linked Bolters are an early version of them. The Horus Heresy novels are incorrect in this respect. *cough*RETCON*cough* Chaos Rhinos used to have SBs, as did the Talon of Horus. I think it was changed in the 3.5 codex to simplify things, because it was hard to model the difference between SBs and CBs in the kits available at the time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161646-csm-storm-bolters/#findComment-1898845 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roultox Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 I like storm bolters on cheap models. Otherwise their "strengths" are not used for the points required to bring them in. Grey Knights can harass an enemy like a noise marine can while on the move for the same points cost. However on a terminator, its stressed to get an assault cannon to make them shooty enough to justify 200 points for 5 storm bolters, while 10 marines can be bought and rapid fire for less. Even the sternguard are almost pushing it when armed with storm bolters. I like combi-bolters more. They pack a better hit ratio within 12" and really shine when they're needed. 1 out of every 3 shots technicly is "the fourth shot" because a reroll practicly counts as another chance or shot. Get two of them and roll in within 12" and you got 5.3 "shots" on a rhino that costs less then 3 marines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161646-csm-storm-bolters/#findComment-1898872 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigrinus Posted February 26, 2009 Author Share Posted February 26, 2009 I like the TL Bolters more than the storm bolters because the former score more hits. My question was how was this justified in the fluff? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I guess the consensus is that SBs were developed after the Heresy? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161646-csm-storm-bolters/#findComment-1898950 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 *cough*RETCON*cough* If the next Codex Chaos Space Marines has Chaos Terminators with stormbolers (and isn't devoted entirely to renegade chapters) then I might consider it being a retcon instead of a mistake by the Codex's author (GW does not seem to be picky about whom they let at their codices currently). But if it is only a black library novel I could hardly care less what it says. Though their material would of course be much more enjoyable if the authors would sometimes stick a little closer to canon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161646-csm-storm-bolters/#findComment-1899140 Share on other sites More sharing options...
darth_giles Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Uh, no. The codex specifically said it was an early version of the Storm Bolter. So the change just screames "retcon." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161646-csm-storm-bolters/#findComment-1899218 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 As long as there is no Codex Chaos Space Marines with stormbolter terminators, there is no change. Just a small mistake in a few black library novels. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161646-csm-storm-bolters/#findComment-1899228 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyescrossed Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Aren't BL canon? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161646-csm-storm-bolters/#findComment-1899246 Share on other sites More sharing options...
darth_giles Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 As long as there is no Codex Chaos Space Marines with stormbolter terminators, there is no change. Just a small mistake in a few black library novels. Yeah, aside from Abbadon that's pretty much how its been. Even in the 3rd edition BBB list, they were described as having "a variety of wicked guns and vicious close combat weapons which count as..." instead of just having an SB and Power Fist. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161646-csm-storm-bolters/#findComment-1899424 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Aren't BL canon? Depends on which BL associate you ask. :tu: Dan Abnett has said "yes" when asked on a convention, later George Man (head editor of BL) has said "no" on a GW investors conference when presenting BL's contribution to the brand. According to Dan Abnett the horus heresy novels overwrite all previous material, even codices and index astartes (but does not explain what happens when later codices still have the original account). According to George Man it is BL's job to make entertaining stories, but none of them are binding when creating new material. Only studio material (i.e. game rule books, codices and white dwarf collections) is binding when creating new material. Not that all BL authors mind that though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161646-csm-storm-bolters/#findComment-1899788 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOGGED Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Roultox did the math for the goodness of tl bolters and legatus explained the fluff reasons. Darth Giles hit the actual fact: they just retconned. As (almost?) everything GW studio makes, it's seriously flawed and inconsistent. Shame for 'em. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161646-csm-storm-bolters/#findComment-1899863 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 The novels 'Horus Rising', 'False Gods', 'Galaxy in Flames' and 'Flight of the Eisenstein' have been released prior to the current Codex Chaos Space Marines, while 'Fulgrim' has been released merely a month later, so was probably in production at the same time. Do these books mention stormbolters as well? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161646-csm-storm-bolters/#findComment-1899887 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otniel Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Yes, Legatus. Several of the characters carry SBs at times in those novels. I haven't noticed them in the ones after "Fulgrim" though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161646-csm-storm-bolters/#findComment-1899924 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Since the current Codex Chaos Space Marines, published after those novels, still has Chaos Marines carry twin linked boltguns as the earlier version of stormbolters, doesn't that provide convincing proof that the black library novels were in fact mistaken, and not retconning? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161646-csm-storm-bolters/#findComment-1899935 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otniel Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 I concur with ya Legatus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161646-csm-storm-bolters/#findComment-1899956 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corrupted Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 In the old fluff Horus had the first storm bolters ever fitted into his talons. I was actually a little annoyed when the they changed the profile for the talon of Horus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161646-csm-storm-bolters/#findComment-1900139 Share on other sites More sharing options...
darth_giles Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Roultox did the math for the goodness of tl bolters and legatus explained the fluff reasons.Darth Giles hit the actual fact: they just retconned. As (almost?) everything GW studio makes, it's seriously flawed and inconsistent. Shame for 'em. Which is why if I make the Night Lord army I'm pondering, I'm going to have Night Lords Noise Marines, Night Lords Khorne Berzerkers, and Night Lords Thousand Sons. I'm just going to go for cool-looking figures and a cool-looking paint job and to hell with the fluff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161646-csm-storm-bolters/#findComment-1900381 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Boomstick Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Night Lords Thousand Sons. A small part of my fluff-gland just died. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161646-csm-storm-bolters/#findComment-1900438 Share on other sites More sharing options...
darth_giles Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Mind if I put that in my signature? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161646-csm-storm-bolters/#findComment-1900445 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Boomstick Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Haha thats fine. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161646-csm-storm-bolters/#findComment-1900464 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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