How do termicide squads work?

[Zhukov]

Hey,

 

I now play chaos for about 3 months I think and like it so much that I sold all of my loyalist marines. But there is something I encountered quite a few times on these forums, but still I dont get it:

 

3 man terminator units w/ combi melta.

 

How I read it, this unit should be able to take out a land raider?

But how does it do it?

 

I guess you need to deepstrike it, but either you should have an icon near the enemy land raider (which is very rare a the start of your turn or they have the chance of scattering horribly right?

 

I mean meltas need to be within 6 inch of the land raider. So do you guys just drop them and hope that they stay close enough to be within 6 inch?? This seems to risky to me.

 

Is this btw the best anti land raider what we got? Or should I go with (another) 2 Oblits, which I dont really want but hey everything for powergaming.

 

So whats the best anti land raider we got?

[janekk]

Oblits are best bet to get rid of land raiders. Lascannon them at long range, multimelta them at medium range, and twinlinked meltagun them at short range, and chainfist them in cc. Still 8 man strong unit of havocs with 4 meltaguns in rhino can do the job nicely too and with added mobility you can use them to hunt some nob bikers or something ;) .

[JamesI]

Oblits are best bet to get rid of land raiders. Lascannon them at long range, multimelta them at medium range, and twinlinked meltagun them at short range, and chainfist them in cc. Still 8 man strong unit of havocs with 4 meltaguns in rhino can do the job nicely too and with added mobility you can use them to hunt some nob bikers or something ;) .

Oblits don't have chainfists.

[djkest]

I deep strike 5" away from the vehicle, or deep strike off an icon. At close range, 3 combi meltas, 2 should hit, and those two will, on average, score a 15 for penetration with +1 to the damage chart. It works at least 50% of the time against land raiders. Against lesser vehicles, it's a chip shot.

[minigun762]

I deep strike 5" away from the vehicle, or deep strike off an icon. At close range, 3 combi meltas, 2 should hit, and those two will, on average, score a 15 for penetration with +1 to the damage chart. It works at least 50% of the time against land raiders. Against lesser vehicles, it's a chip shot.

 

Pretty much this is it. You can increase your chances by taking a 4 man squad, or using multiple 3 man squads. The major benefit is that the 3 man Termicide squad is less than 1/2 the price of any Land Raider, even our naked cheap on, so even if you get unlucky and use 2 squads to kill it, you're still even in the grand scheme of things.

 

Other than Land Raiders, it is a nice squad to use against vehicles that like to camp in their deployment zone, Basilisks, Leman Russes, Hammerheads and Fire Prisms to name a few. In general all of these units are fairly important to the player. Its like Chess, you're losing the equivalent of a Knight but bagging a Rook for the trade.

[janekk]

Oblits don't have chainfists.

My bad. When I wrote this I had oblit figure on mind. Still powerfist is better than nothing and if you are in melta range anyway then why not?

 

On topic:

I'm not a big fan of suicide termies, youre paying for them just to get 3 meltagun shots, and its quite random at that if you don't have icon anywhere near, havocs in rhino are far better option for me because they can do other things too, 3 termies are merely distraction, too much of a gamble here, yes you can destroy land raider, but if you will miss your shots, fail to penetrate, deepstrike farther than 6", lose them by mishap, you just wasted bunch of points, there is not going to be second chance.

[Zhukov]

Ah thanks especially to minigun. Then it indeed works as I thought.

2x3 man squads it will be then. I'm especially happy about this as it complements my army nice. I dont have termies yet so...

Quite strange actually cause i have about 2500 points already.

 

And if the squads take out a tank they live after that, so the enemy either has to waste shots or an assault on them.

 

Oh and the nice thing is, my local tourneys dont use kill points, they still use VP's instead of it haha.

 

Oh and janekk, 1 BS4 lasscanon shot has about an 3,7% of destroying a land raider without cover save... And if the land raider is withing melta gun range you probably get shot or assaulted yourself.

 

And I guess even if they scatter out of the 6 inch range, you can either shoot at something else, or run into cover or something like that. Its not that the squad suddenly vanishes

[chillin]

3 termi's all w/ combi-meltas, DS in (if you have an icon close great, but you probably won't, so just rely on a halfway decient scatter role),

blast LR w/ meltas. Pretty simple.

[janekk]

Nah I would never rely on lascannons to get rid of land raider its just better than nothing. Yes they don't vanish instantly they vanish in enemy shooting phase. I didn't say its bad choice or anything especialy with icons nearby, I just personaly wouldn't use it, not my style :lol: . I don' t like to gamble too much, I don't even take daemon weapons because they are too unreliable, I like when everything goes "just as planned". About if you are in melta range then... well thats why havocs in rhino, land raider is mainly transport vehicle so it has to come to me anyway or enemy is using it wrong, rhino 12" movement, 2" disembarkment and 6" melta range gives me 20" in range 4 shot potent tank killer and makes it possible to shot first without beign assaulted when "timed" right. And yet another rhino in the ranks can be easly overlooked too ;) especialy with land raiders around or oblits or defilers or princes or...

[Zhukov]

If you want that everything goes as planned, it means that you want to make the chance as high as posable right? Cause ofcourse not everything goes as planned, you are still throwing dice in the end not?

But what do you want then, 80% chance of succes? Even 95% maybe? Problem with that is that things get ineffective if you want that high of a chance. You are ending too many times with overkill in that way, whats means wasted points.

 

Maybe not in this case, cause I dont really think 4 melta guns is overkill against a land raider. But if you want that everything goes 'as planned', you need to play chess :whistling:

[Dràyhèn]

No pain no gain. Taking risks is 50/50 situation, but it pays off when it succeeds.

 

I'm either lucky with my rolls or think with care where I ds. I mean, I rarely miss with my 3 or 5-man termies, never got destroyed, out of table, or went back in the reserve, and rarely do they scatter too far to get wasted. And I use them in every single list I play. You just need to think wisely where to ds them, and they won't scatter that far away if they do at all. Well, if you roll badly, then you roll badly, but the dice gods decide of that :P

[janekk]

If you want that everything goes as planned, it means that you want to make the chance as high as posable right? Cause ofcourse not everything goes as planned, you are still throwing dice in the end not?

But what do you want then, 80% chance of succes? Even 95% maybe? Problem with that is that things get ineffective if you want that high of a chance. You are ending too many times with overkill in that way, whats means wasted points.

 

Maybe not in this case, cause I dont really think 4 melta guns is overkill against a land raider. But if you want that everything goes 'as planned', you need to play chess :P

Not exactly, I want to have reasonable chance, I do enjoy random variables that can ruin my strategy because the fun is trying to counter that situation with resources at hand, you need to get creative because you can't predict everything. Chess is too boring to me, not much happening, everything is predictable. Lets apply chess "rules" to reality, when you drop glass it hits floor and breaks, everyone could predict that, thats how gravity works, now lets apply Warhammer to reality, when you drop glass lots of other things can happen. It can float in air, hit celling, you in face, randomly break apart for no real reason, now that is much more fun isn't it? Its not comfortable world where you can predict everything and nothing can suprise you, its world where glasses hit you right in the face! Enough of that madness...... for now ;) .

 

Yes 4 meltaguns isn't overkill, its better chance than three and you don't have to use them only against land raider becuse they aren't one shot, nob bikers are another juicy target for them or termies (excluding TH&SS) or another multi wound or heavly armoured unit or both. And it all comes down at quite reasonable price, still cheaper than land raider but they are capable of destroying more than that, thats where I take risk, its not about maybe 1 or none at all, but about 1 and maybe something else or even more than that or still maybe nothing in very unfortunate situation. I play Warhammer I have to gamble but I like to even the odds, pickup not fair fights and expect from my units much but always take worst scenario in consideration, one shot unit like termicide squad is not for me because at most they can do one thing I wanted them to do, no bonuses included, for the same reason I don't take hunter killer missles :yes: (second was that they are not very great at tank killing and against troops its a laugh, not worth their price).

 

Ps. As a side note about what I earlier said about daemon weapon, I had bloodfeeder on mind, for other cults or undivided I would rather take sorceror or DP, thats why bloodfeeder. I like themed lists adds some flavour to game (I hate Lash DP, berzekers lists not because they are cheese but because they don't make sense at all, game wise they don't concern me because it can't affect vehicles), Warhammer isn't about pure competetiveness for me (chess is for that ;) ) its about pure fun, and beign close in personality to Khorne Berzeker (but very gentle one!) I want to somewhat lessen impact from rolled 1 on my mood -_- .

[Cornelias]

i've been using 4 man squads more now, 4x meltas and a chainfist. i normally take 2 of these squads and use them exactly as described above.

[minigun762]

i've been using 4 man squads more now, 4x meltas and a chainfist. i normally take 2 of these squads and use them exactly as described above.

 

Thats a nice squad, I'd toss in the Heavy Flamer as a "What if" because its only 5 points and if you fight a horde army (or sneaky Eldar Pathfinders buried in Cover) you'll appreciate it.

[Cornelias]

i've been using 4 man squads more now, 4x meltas and a chainfist. i normally take 2 of these squads and use them exactly as described above.

 

Thats a nice squad, I'd toss in the Heavy Flamer as a "What if" because its only 5 points and if you fight a horde army (or sneaky Eldar Pathfinders buried in Cover) you'll appreciate it.

 

 

yeah not a bad idea actually, thanks :P i'm sure i can find 10 points from somewhere in my list.

[Hellios]

Not exactly, I want to have reasonable chance, I do enjoy random variables that can ruin my strategy because the fun is trying to counter that situation with resources at hand, you need to get creative because you can't predict everything. Chess is too boring to me, not much happening, everything is predictable. Lets apply chess "rules" to reality, when you drop glass it hits floor and breaks, everyone could predict that, thats how gravity works, now lets apply Warhammer to reality, when you drop glass lots of other things can happen. It can float in air, hit celling, you in face, randomly break apart for no real reason, now that is much more fun isn't it? Its not comfortable world where you can predict everything and nothing can suprise you, its world where glasses hit you right in the face! Enough of that madness...... for now ;) .

 

My flat mate dropped a glass the other day and it bounced off the kitchen floor and I caught it as it was going through the air... I'm going to be watching out for the minions of chaos now as I may well be living in the warhammer reality.

[Mutt-Man!]

Ok, the fact that people need to deep strike 3 combination meltaguns of a grand total of 105 points (minimum) to kill a 220+ point vehicle is not powergaming when you have a medium success rate to do so.

 

More and more people are going with the three combination plasmaguns instead for the multi-use killfactor. Also, dont forget the heavy flamer. Some even claim a heavy flamer and 2 C-Flamers just to kill a whole guardsmen unit on first drop. (60pts+guns, averaging 85 for the guard unit or more)

[minigun762]

Some even claim a heavy flamer and 2 C-Flamers just to kill a whole guardsmen unit on first drop. (60pts+guns, averaging 85 for the guard unit or more)

 

Best use there would probably be against large Ork squads. Since you resolve the templates then take wounds you could easily hit a 30 Boy Ork mob with 3 templates, rackup 10+ wounds on them easily.

[Zhukov]

Hmmm but 10+ wounds is about 60+ points so....

[cathar the great]

I know that is not what most people consider, but...

 

From a background story point of view, these squads are simple nonsense. Why would a Chaos Warband or Legion send their best warriors on suicide missions? Their best warriors wearing their most unique sets of armor and weapons?

 

Just doesn't make any sense.

[minigun762]

I know that is not what most people consider, but...

 

From a background story point of view, these squads are simple nonsense. Why would a Chaos Warband or Legion send their best warriors on suicide missions? Their best warriors wearing their most unique sets of armor and weapons?

 

Just doesn't make any sense.

 

It kinda does, depending on how you look at it.

The Terminators are the only ones who can accomplish this goal and thus for the success of the plan as a whole, they take the most dangerous jobs. Their superior wargear is to provide them the means to accomplish this task and we all know that Chaos shines the brightest on those who take risks.

 

Fluff-wise I see nothing wrong with a small unit of Terminators teleporting behind enemy lines to knock out their heavy artillery/armor/Command HQ prior to the rest of the army's main assault.

[cathar the great]

Terminators are not commandos or special ops... Loyalists have Veteran Squads and Scouts for surgical strikes behind enemy lines and Chaos has Chosen or no need for subtelties like that.

 

Of course rules-wise and equipment-wise Terminators are perfect for this job, but I think the uniqueness of the armor is a more important issue for commanders in the 41st millenium.

 

Most/all of the Termi-Armor a Legion uses is 10.000 years old and not reproducable. No lord would want armor like that flattened by Land Raider tracks because their Combi-melta missed. Not to speak of the Chaos veteran inside it, who fought with him since the heresy.

[Mutt-Man!]

Consider the raiding type legions that consider these tactics as viable. Not to mention a quick way to off a potential rival for the lord's throne. Among other internal politics. It is for the headstrong and stern, what chaos marine wouldnt pass up the oppertunity to bring glory to chaos?

 

Fluffwise, its ok. Gamewise, its a good tactic. How often do you scare the opponent by landing several units of 3 terminators to chew away at a basilisk behind a building or munch the rear of a titan for 2 full structure points? As it stands there is an apocalypse datasheet of a lord in terminator armor with terminator units that teleport boldly onto the objectives. That alone supports the theory of "Commando Terminators".

 

Besides, some chaos lords may have made their glory being such a terminator.

[cathar the great]

Still, there is a difference between taking the chance to bring glory and fame to their name and just simply commiting suicide. I just can't picture Chaos Veterans in Termi-Armor as people not taking odds into consideration. They somehow managed to survive for a very long time, and they won't give all their ambitions up for a little fame.

 

I know GW has us all believe that every Chaos Marine is a raving lunatic whose only desire is slaughter and praising his gods, thanks to the recent codex. But that's just not all. It cannot be the explanation for any cheesy tactic players come up with. "Oh, they are maniacs, why wouldn't they?" Next time someone will tell me that explanation for two Demonprinces with powerful psychic abilities that team up to lead a bunch of marines worshipping Khorne into battle. Sorry, I just won't accept that. "They're crazy, right, why wouldn't they?"

 

As for the Datasheet, I think there is a major difference between a unit of three terminators popping up directly in front of the enemy line without support, and a Chaos Lord leading A NUMBER of full-sized Terminator-units into a planet-wide battlezone to secure his personal goal. So that supports nothing.

[Mutt-Man!]

Same could be said about the use of regular marines being stuffed on the open fieds like imperial guard rather then using cover and flanking a firebase like the all experienced marines they are. Except we're given six turn average limiters and must charge forward counting the inches as we move.

 

I'm sure an oppertunist trio can spot when the rear of a basilisk has been exposed at a distance while the rest of the guard mount among the terrain 24" away from it. Using three tripple term squads I rarely lose them all. I lose them more often treating them like my regular marines. Fancy playing not involved, its a mere use of putting the knight of the chess bord behind the bishop and attack the rook. Marines are taught to be daring when oppertunity presents itself. They would never make marine status from "cultist" status maintaining a reserve. Or allowed to maintain a successful "clone" status or otherwise.

 

Space Wolves, testiment to pre-heresy recruitment. Refer to blood claws fluff.