The Mangler Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 During the siege of Terra how outnumbered were the loyal marines? I know that Horus had a large amount of non marine help but for this purpose I just want to know about actual marine numbers. Many of the Traitors were not at there in full strength and out of the three defending legions I believe only the Blood Angels were under full strength. Also Which Traitor legions were involved in the siege? I am not really sure so any help from someone more knowledgeable would be appreciated. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162437-the-siege-of-terra/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 the imperial fists had their veteran companies, and these were mauled to about half strenght due to their actions on mars. the majority of the imperial fists were sent to assault horus on isstvan (or however thats spelt), and when recalled, were stuck in transit. they were then assaulted by the iron warriors, and had to fight a breakout. they emerged, but were mauled terribly. they would take part in the seige. the blood angels were mauled from their actions in the signis cluster, and the angel sanguinius was recovering from his battle against a greater daemon of khorne. thw white scars were relatively unscathed, though they had to fight through the alpha legion fleet to get to terra... while no exact numbers exist, the loyalist marines were vastly outnumbered. of the traitor primarchs and their legions, present was: angron, mortarion, magnus, fulgrim, horus, lograr (?), perturabo. wolf lord kieran Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162437-the-siege-of-terra/#findComment-1909065 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Kael Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 of the traitor primarchs and their legions, present was:angron, mortarion, magnus, fulgrim, horus, lograr (?), perturabo. wolf lord kieran I agree that Angron, Mortarion, Fulgrim, Perturabo, and Lorgar were present. But Horus was in orbit on his command ship. And are you sure of Magnus? I have never read anything or heard about him or the Thousand Sons being at the seige. Also were Alpharius and Omeggon their too? Besides that, WLK answered the questions pretty well. The Salamanders, Raven Gaurd, and Iron Hands were not able to partake in the defence of Tera because there legions were badly wounded from Istvaan. The Dark Angels, Ultramarines, and Space Wolves were on their way to Terra, but by the time they arrived, the battle was over. Captain Kael :devil: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162437-the-siege-of-terra/#findComment-1909088 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobo Willie Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 I believe the Thousand Sons materialized out of warp portals on Terra shortly after they "disappeared" on Prospero. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162437-the-siege-of-terra/#findComment-1909117 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mega_marines Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 I believe the Thousand Sons materialized out of warp portals on Terra shortly after they "disappeared" on Prospero. Where did you hear this, because this is first time I've heard this. :cuss Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162437-the-siege-of-terra/#findComment-1909133 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 i have finished reading the Collected Visions artbook today, which has: magnus's communique to horus saying how russ destroyed prospero (hell yea...sorry, i'm bias on that ;) ), the emperor burned me, now i am going to have my vengeance and my survivng thousand sons "await your orders to move on terra." blah blah i'm emo blah. so magnus arrived to hurl sorcery at the guy who warned him about hurling sorcery...ironic. and alpharius was ordered to delay leman russ from terra, so he had attacked russ's fleet as it raced to terra. no word on his twin, as his twin didnt exist as of the writing of Collected Visions. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162437-the-siege-of-terra/#findComment-1909199 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobo Willie Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 Where did you hear this, because this is first time I've heard this. ;) I could have sworn that's what was wrote in that very old Index Astartes article in White Dwarf detailing the Siege of Terra. But it's been years since I read it, so I could be mistaken. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162437-the-siege-of-terra/#findComment-1909249 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mangler Posted March 6, 2009 Author Share Posted March 6, 2009 Thank you for the fast replies. I was told that the Imperial Fists sent to Isstvan were lead by Sigismund and therefore had to have made it back, but thanks for correcting that. I wasn't sure if the Death Guard, Thousand Sons, or Night Lords were there but I am fairly sure the Alpha Legion was mostly busy keeping other loyalists from making it to Terra. Can I correctly say that all the traitor legions were represented in some way except possibly the Night Lords and Alpha Legion? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162437-the-siege-of-terra/#findComment-1909294 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Child-of-the-Emperor Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 Magnus and the XV legion were present at the siege yea :P - after the siege of Prospero they were transported into the great eye, and then re-emerged to fight alongside Horus. As far as im aware just to echo some previous posts; The Loyalist legions were: Blood Angels White Scars Imperial Fists The Traitor legions were: Sons of Horus Thousand Sons A contingent of Word Bearers alongside Lorgar (the rest having attack Calth) The Emperors Children (although most did not take part in the siege, they just butchered the population) Iron Warriors (enjoyed tearing down Dorn's fortifications!) World Eaters The notable traitor legion exceptions were: Night Lords (returned to the eastern fringe after Istvaan V and began a genocidal campaign most likely to stop any support from this area from reaching Terra) Alpha Legion (were deployed to stall loyalist reinforcements) Death Guard (who were lost in the warp and helpless before papa nurgle due to the actions of Typhus) So as you can see the Loyalists were hopelessly outnumbered, and the traitors had reached the Inner palace - within where the golden throne resides now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162437-the-siege-of-terra/#findComment-1909383 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 Death Guard (who were lost in the warp and helpless before papa nurgle due to the actions of Typhus) The Death Guard were present at the Siege, according to the Index Astartes article on the Siege of Terra. I believe the becalming in the warp and being presented to Nurgle occured immediately rpior to the Siege. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162437-the-siege-of-terra/#findComment-1909404 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobo Willie Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 Night Lords (returned to the eastern fringe after Istvaan V and began a genocidal campaign most likely to stop any support from this area from reaching Terra) I'd say the Night Lords were off doing what they wanted rather than anything Horus wanted. The Night Haunter, at this point, was ensuring that his visions would come true. EDIT: What if the Cabal at one point had approached the Konrad Curze personality with the same vision of the future they showed Alpharius and the Night Haunter personality reasoned "Why wait for Horus to win..." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162437-the-siege-of-terra/#findComment-1909440 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyrion Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 EDIT: What if the Cabal at one point had approached the Konrad Curze personality with the same vision of the future they showed Alpharius and the Night Haunter personality reasoned "Why wait for Horus to win..." if they did why should Night Haunter be such a weakling like Alpharius (as it is written in legion) also you should make a diffrence between fluff (like Index Astartes, Rulebooks and Collected Visions) and the HH-Novels because i have to say these two things don't match each other and cant be combined. so I don't think that Night Haunter would have left them alive for long enough to say something. And the Death Guard were at the siege of terra and they were lost in the warp right before the siege and made it out of the warp shortly after the begin of the siege....which in fact can be a few days up to a few weeks....altough they could have been in the warp for months because remember time flows diffrent in the warp Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162437-the-siege-of-terra/#findComment-1909600 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 according the the Collected Visions artbook, Night Haunter was indeed acting on Horus's orders during the siege of terra...his job was to go balls out crazy and cover the flanks of horus advancement by striking at key locations along the route to terra. the Imperial Fists fleet that was sent to isstvan returned prior to the siege, as Dorn sent a general message to all loyal primarchs to drop whatever they were doing, and get their demi-god butts home asap. (hence why the khan left russ, even though russ needed aid in taking on the superior alpha legion fleet.) fulgrim and his legion did particpate in the initial steps of the siege of terra, but then got bored at the Eternity Gate refusing to fall and attacked the populace of terra. and just to put things in worse perspective for the loyalists, at this point the adeptus custodes and sisters of silence were also badly mauled due to the war beneath the imperial palace (lets just say that Collected Visions explains the emperor's absence, and holy crap was it cool. but no more as people should read it themselves) WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162437-the-siege-of-terra/#findComment-1909625 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mangler Posted March 6, 2009 Author Share Posted March 6, 2009 It says in the current Chaos space marine book that Mortarion and the Death Guard were present at the siege. So all the Imperial Fists did make it back to Terra? What was the Phalanx doing during the siege? Considering many of the Chaos legions would have already been weakened, is it possible to give any sort of estimate to how bad they outnumbered the loyalist marines? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162437-the-siege-of-terra/#findComment-1909750 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Child-of-the-Emperor Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 If we've learnt one thing from this thread it is that 40k fluff contradicts itself! There are many sources on information about the siege of terra, some claim some things, some claim others! As ive read it the Death Guard were not present at Terra due to being lost in the warp, and i hold this view, although as people have stated there is sources which state otherwise! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162437-the-siege-of-terra/#findComment-1909771 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 It says in the current Chaos space marine book that Mortarion and the Death Guard were present at the siege. So all the Imperial Fists did make it back to Terra? What was the Phalanx doing during the siege? Considering many of the Chaos legions would have already been weakened, is it possible to give any sort of estimate to how bad they outnumbered the loyalist marines? unfountunatlely, i dont know of any source that gets even a ball park estimate of the traitors numbers, which were always in question due to the amount of traitor imperial armymen and daemons that also brought with them... the phalanx was not mentioned in the collected visions that i remember, so i would assume it was around terra continuing the fight against horus's fleet. @CotE, what source have you read for the DG not being at the siege??? everything i have read says they were there. wlk Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162437-the-siege-of-terra/#findComment-1909823 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Notlage Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 the imperial fists had their veteran companies, and these were mauled to about half strenght due to their actions on mars. Wow, half strength? Is that what collected visions says? In Mechanicus, it seems they specificially avoided getting into a major war and headed home with the needed supplies. I would expect some losses (and they are certainly detailed in the book), but half strength is honestly surprising. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162437-the-siege-of-terra/#findComment-1909878 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodunius Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 @CotE, what source have you read for the DG not being at the siege??? everything i have read says they were there. Seconded, I know several sources mentions that they were trapped in the warp for months, but the Heresy itself lasted several years so that doesn't preclude them still making it in time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162437-the-siege-of-terra/#findComment-1909885 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Khammon Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 Death Guard were trapped in the Warp after Istvaan V, where time doesn't means anything. A month in there can be a minute or thousand years in the real space. When they came out to attack Terra, they were called the Plague Marines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162437-the-siege-of-terra/#findComment-1909917 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ju'kosian Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 Death Guard were trapped in the Warp after Istvaan V, where time doesn't means anything. A month in there can be a minute or thousand years in the real space. When they came out to attack Terra, they were called the Plague Marines. correct, I believe this is stated in either the IA or in the Whitedwarf article "siege of holy terra".. Present on Terra : Loyalist : Blood Angels, White scars, Imperial fists, The custodes and guard, titan legions, I presume the sisters of silence were there too.. Chaos : Sons of Horus (duh), all 4 cult legions (WE,DG, EC, 1ksons), Word bearers (partially under command of Lorgar) and I believe that the Iron warriors were also incomplete, but Perturabo was there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162437-the-siege-of-terra/#findComment-1910152 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 @notlage: yeah, Collected visions has the imp fists raiding mars for the gear, but getting mauled by the traitor titans and such... @ju'kosian: the sisters of silence and the custodes were present, but they too were mauled according to events described in Collected Visions. massive spoilers below...be warned! Collected Visions explains that the Emperor returned to Earth to finish work on a imperial webgate, to relieve mankind on its reliance of astropaths and warp ships. this is why he is pissed when magnus uses sorcery to breach the Imperial Palace's defenses, as in doing so Magnus broke them and allowed the daemons of the warp direct access to the Palace. (the warp gate was being built in a chamber beyond the gold throne.) the adeptus custodes and sisters of silence were drawn into the webgate to protect mechanicus workers while they tried to fix the gate. they were pushed back by daemonic assaults (including traitor marines and titans) into the chamber where the golden throne lies, and then the emperor rejoined the fight...he then held the gate alone while the custodes and sisters went above to man the palace's walls against horus. when the emperor goes to face horus, malcador takes his place on the throne, which slowly kills him (which means he was stupidly powerful to begin with)...the emperor is then entombed in the golden throne to provide astro guidance and keep the webgate shut, preventing daemons from entering the Palace. wolf lord kieran Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162437-the-siege-of-terra/#findComment-1910524 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Child-of-the-Emperor Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 Death Guard were trapped in the Warp after Istvaan V, where time doesn't means anything. A month in there can be a minute or thousand years in the real space. When they came out to attack Terra, they were called the Plague Marines. Yes obviously but that doesn't prove it either way! Im basing my fluff on the Lexicanum! :P (but obviously there is other sources which state they were at the siege!) Quote: "When Horus led his forces against Earth and the Emperor, the Death Guard's First Captain, Calas Typhon (now known as Typhus), killed the Navigator of their capital ship. Pretending that they were still loyal to the Emperor, Typhon led the Legion's Fleet into the Warp but instead of going to Holy Terra to crush the Imperium, the ships became trapped and unable to return to Real Space. The Destroyer Hive flooded the ship while they were trapped in the Warp. The stinking pestilence flooded the gut and distended the flesh, while the Marines were blacked out the Destroyer Hive swarmed over them and laid eggs inside the sores of the Marines. Craving salvation, the Death Guard called upon Nurgle to help them. Nurgle corrupted them beyond measure, transforming them into the grotesque warriors they are now." As i see it, Typhus purposely killed the navigators and avoided the siege in order to force his legion and primarch to embrace Nurgle It says in the current Chaos space marine book that Mortarion and the Death Guard were present at the siege. You could give the page number please ^_^ saves me scanning through it <_< ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162437-the-siege-of-terra/#findComment-1910603 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 I'll reference mine for you: "Horus unleashed the World Eaters and Death Guard Traitor Legions against the Eternity Wall and Lion's Gate Spaceports." Page 1 "The Death Guard were Horus' principal (sic) reserve and he committed them to reopen Lion's Gate . . . Although the White Scars and Death Guard stayed locked in battle while the attack on the Palace raged on, Lion's Gate remained firmly shut." Page 3 Both from Index Astartes: The Siege of the Emperor's Palace. Index Astartes: Death Guard makes no mention of whether the Death Guard were present at the Siege or not, only that they were becalmed en-route to Terra and that despite this "Mortarion was determined they would be there (at Terra)". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162437-the-siege-of-terra/#findComment-1910699 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Child-of-the-Emperor Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 I'll reference mine for you: "Horus unleashed the World Eaters and Death Guard Traitor Legions against the Eternity Wall and Lion's Gate Spaceports." Page 1 "The Death Guard were Horus' principal (sic) reserve and he committed them to reopen Lion's Gate . . . Although the White Scars and Death Guard stayed locked in battle while the attack on the Palace raged on, Lion's Gate remained firmly shut." Page 3 Both from Index Astartes: The Siege of the Emperor's Palace. Index Astartes: Death Guard makes no mention of whether the Death Guard were present at the Siege or not, only that they were becalmed en-route to Terra and that despite this "Mortarion was determined they would be there (at Terra)". Then i suppose i must submit to your more trustworthy source! <_< Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162437-the-siege-of-terra/#findComment-1910711 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 Then i suppose i must submit to your more trustworthy source! <_< Don't be too sure. The HH series has already retconned some of this. Remember the Council of Nikea banning Librarians? Well, in the earlier IA articles, only sorcery was banned, and BA and IF Librarians were present to counter the Thousand Sons' Sorcerers trying to breach the Inner Palace with the magicks. My source is still canon, but it might not be for much longer! :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/162437-the-siege-of-terra/#findComment-1910726 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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