Fixing Daemonhunters

[paulson games]

I agree that they should be beasts in cc, the terminators effectively have 3 attacks with powerweapons resolving at initiative so they are already brutal even without charge bonuses. Overall I think they are far more effective in combat than pretty much any marine force statwise, and they are able to go toe-to-toe with horde lists without too much problem as they are usually striking first.

 

I think that granting extra attacks on the defense may be a bit much (like with countercharge, etc) as they are already very good in close combat.

 

Being fearless is awesome, but the hinderance of it is when you lose the assault round you get slapped with a ton of extra wounds rather than breaking like in 4th ed. I do agree that their training focuses very heavily on fighting vastly superior numbers, and never running against those odds. If they lose a round of combat they should not have wounds applied per normal fearless units.

 

Also it might make sense that while their squad is outnumbered they get to re-roll failed to hit rolls in close combat, representing both their superior training and psychic awareness. I think that would improve their effciency against higher numbers without resorting to an overkill with additional attack bonuses.

[Aidoneus]

Why is it assumed GK need to be better in cc? They already have 2 attacks base, which is better than marines (though not chaos, admittedly). They also are WS5, which superior to marines, who are already super-human. They also have S6, which is just fantastic. The Justicar also automatically has a power weapon, even though the difference between his cost and that of a regular PAGK is less than the difference between a regular marine and a vet sgt with power weapon. They also have Fearless, and the rule where they do not take wounds from losing CC. They also have frags and kraks, like all marines, and additionally defensive grenades, in which they're grouped only with plague marines.

 

Guys, they're already really good in close combat! Expecting them to win CC against specialists like berzerkers or hordes of orks or tyranids is unrealistic, just like it's unrealistic to expect them to out-shoot tau or eldar or IG. GKs are elite in that they are above-average, though not completely dominant, in all areas of combat. This gives them the flexibility to shoot berzerkers or 'nids, and to charge IG or tau.

 

The question we should be asking ourselves right now is, can GK out-shoot other "balanced" squads, like marines, and also can GK out-assault other "balanced" squads? In the case of marines, the answer is unequivocally "yes." In the case of other units, like dire avengers, like tyranid warriors (without too many bio-morphs), or like sisters of battle, the answer is always "yes." And when you ask if we can out-shoot assault specialists, or out-assault shooting specialists, the result is even more lopsided. THAT is what we should be aiming at, and I think that we're already there.

[FunkyEntropy]

I agree that they should be beasts in cc, the terminators effectively have 3 attacks with powerweapons resolving at initiative so they are already brutal even without charge bonuses. Overall I think they are far more effective in combat than pretty much any marine force statwise, and they are able to go toe-to-toe with horde lists without too much problem as they are usually striking first.

 

I think that granting extra attacks on the defense may be a bit much (like with countercharge, etc) as they are already very good in close combat.

 

Being fearless is awesome, but the hinderance of it is when you lose the assault round you get slapped with a ton of extra wounds rather than breaking like in 4th ed. I do agree that their training focuses very heavily on fighting vastly superior numbers, and never running against those odds. If they lose a round of combat they should not have wounds applied per normal fearless units.

 

Also it might make sense that while their squad is outnumbered they get to re-roll failed to hit rolls in close combat, representing both their superior training and psychic awareness. I think that would improve their effciency against higher numbers without resorting to an overkill with additional attack bonuses.

 

The adaptation to the "Fearless" rules that we've got I think works pretty well. Not suffering the normal extra wounds from outnumbering and losing combat is huge, and really represents the GKs training to hold out against what would otherwise be an overwhelming force.

[Aidoneus]

Two minor things I noted:

the terminators effectively have 3 attacks with powerweapons resolving at initiative so they are already brutal even without charge bonuses.

Perhaps I misunderstand you, but it sounds like you're saying GKTs benefit from True Grit. They don't. We could consider letting them benefit from True Grit (I think it would make sense, but I worry about increasing their power to the point where we'd need to also increase their points), but as of now they're just your basic 2-attack terminators, although they do get the +1 attack bonus for charging.

 

Not suffering the normal extra wounds from outnumbering and losing combat is huge...

Losing wounds to being outnumbered was in 4th edition. Now you lose wounds (well, take saves) for each casualty you took in addition to the number you inflicted. That is, regardless of how many models are involved, if you inflict 3 unsaved wounds, but lose 5 models, you take 2 additional saves.

[FunkyEntropy]

Not suffering the normal extra wounds from outnumbering and losing combat is huge...

Losing wounds to being outnumbered was in 4th edition. Now you lose wounds (well, take saves) for each casualty you took in addition to the number you inflicted. That is, regardless of how many models are involved, if you inflict 3 unsaved wounds, but lose 5 models, you take 2 additional saves.

 

How right you are. I only acquired 5th ed recently, and am very much still in the 4th ed mindset. I've read the new rules a couple of times, played a game or two, but still really haven't gotten it down.

 

But point being - we still removed the penalties for losing combats to reflect the GK training to survive overwhelming odds.

[paulson games]

True grit has always been one of the major unique factors that made GKs unique, if any chapter deserves it it'd be them. Playing GKS without true grit just completely kills their image and cool factor for me, and I wouldn't play them if they lose it.

 

They already have true grit, so keeping it doesn't increase their power at all, and shouldn't reflect any points change away from what it is currently. C:DH always states that their point cost is low vs daemon hence why they have special rules for offsetting that balance, their costs and abilities are already quite well balanced against other non-daemon armies.

[Aidoneus]

True grit has always been one of the major unique factors that made GKs unique, if any chapter deserves it it'd be them. Playing GKS without true grit just completely kills their image and cool factor for me, and I wouldn't play them if they lose it.

No, you're not understanding me. They aren't going to lose it because you can't lose something you don't already have. Go read the rules for True Grit in our codex. It specifically says that it only applies to models in power armour. GKTs Do Not Have It. Now, as part of this project, we can discuss adding it. But we need to understand that that would, in fact, constitute a very real change to the unit, and one that adds a decent bit of power to them as well.

[paulson games]

Terminator armor isn't power armor?

 

I was pretty sure that both terminator and artifice armor were still forms of powerarmor, thus anyone wearing terminator armor also has true grit. Hence why the terminators all have the stormbolters strapped to their arm just like the regular GK troops.

[Ominous Anonymous]

Wow, so much has happened and I've only now gotten a chance to look at all of it! :P

 

Relating to the discussion at hand, I think we can safely keep Grey Knights where they are in terms of ignoring No Retreat!, Strength 6, and WS 5. I agree that we should keep True Grit as it is, as it gives a little extra flavour to the units.

 

EDIT:

 

First off, we're splitting the ENTIRE debate about FA off into another thread, Updating GK Fast Attack. You guys have made very good points (not to say I'm convinced yet, but I at least recognize that your points are compelling), but this topic is starting to consume the project. Since it falls outside our normal limitations anyway, it simply made sense to discuss it in its own thread. That thread is still a part of this overall project though, so whatever we decide there will be included in the final product.

 

Thank you for this. :lol:

 

I'm putting Shrouding for dreads as a 30pt upgrade option.

 

To be honest that sounds like a good idea and I can't really see it getting much lower if at all.

 

That is why I think the Vindicare deserves the BS 7.

 

Fair enough. The only thing holding me back from giving him WS7 is that he still has the other stats of an Imperial Assassin, such as his WS 5 and Marine Toughness and Strength. His Initiative and invulnerable save is fine for being able to get away from situations quickly, but I suggest a drop in Weapon Skill and maybe strength to compensate for BS7.

 

Okay, fair enough. But you miss my more important point. Killing 3 assassins only nets you 1 KP, which is pretty much just like any other squad you can take. And if you are willing to accept them being 3 KP, or if you're playing one of the other two scenarios, you can simply take them as 3 separate sub-units, in which case there are no coherency restrictions at all.

 

Fair enough on this side as well. ;)

 

I was still thinking of DCAs in a 3 KP mindset. Perhaps I should have looked at Attack Bike squads as an analogy instead, but perhaps this aspect will have to be lent to testing to see if it works out or not.

 

If we could remove unnecessary things like immunity to minor psychic powers and Rites of Exorcism and maybe even removed Daemonic Infestation (seeing as now it's more of a hindrance to Grey Knights against Daemons), I would love to see the regular Grey Knight troop dropped to 23pts apiece with a similar decrease for Terminators and their respective Sergeants.

GKs aren't immune to minor psychic powers. That's sisters. And since minor psychic powers don't even exist any more, it's pretty much a moot point.

 

Rites of Exorcism, even when coupled with daemonic infestation, should still be a positive. Denying them fearless? Making it harder for them to charge us? Letting us strike first when they do? Rites is a very powerful rule!

 

What I've tried to do is to keep the flavor of GKs as a highly-elite force. Lowering points costs of the basic models would go against that. Instead, what I've tried to do here is raise their abilities up to the standards set by their cost. To that end, we have improved most, if not all, of their special rules, given them kraks, frags, and defensive grenades, and allowed their justicars to take psychic powers. Seems to me like they're worth those 25pts now.

 

That's what I get for making an argument without my codex in front of me! :P

 

On the first point, however, GKs are immune to minor psychic powers, according to the very list line of the Aegis special rules: "Minor psychic powers used by the army by the enmy have no effect at all on Grey Knights." My point was that perhaps we could remove a lot of the lesser, unuseable rules that justified a 25 per man cost before in the attempts to either: A ) Lower their points overall or, more preferably B ) Keep them at 25pts each but also give them goodies like free grenades and such, which as you say you are trying to do, so blah.

 

I have mixed feelings about Daemonic Infestation. On one hand I know it balanced out our special rules against daemons and only against daemons, and as such is a necessary evil, but on the other hand I feel it is unneccessary because daemons have gotten better overall, and would even drop our new version of Rites so it would be dropped as well. However, the fluffy part of me is leaning with the former.

[Aidoneus]

Terminator armor isn't power armor?

Are you serious? Honestly, I'm not being cute; I really can't tell.

 

Terminator armour is not power armour. It's terminator armour. Power armour is power armour. I mean, they're both in our armoury, as separate items. Power armour is what all marines wear, and gives a 3+ save. Terminator armour is what terminators wear, and give a 2+ save, with a 5+ invulnerable. There are various other differences as well, but the important point is that they are very much distinct, and therefore GKTs (grey knight terminators) do not benefit from True Grit, while PAGKs (power-armoured grey knights) do.

[paulson games]

Terminator armor is simply a more advanced form of power armor, heavier armor and improved internal systems.

 

All non-scout marines wear power armor, it's part of being a marine. Power armor means that it's self enclosed and able to opperate in any enviroment, and also assists the marine with a powered exoskeleton. The powered system and exoskeleton is mentioned right in the armory listing.

 

Technically the wording in the codex doesn't state that it is power armor, but older base rule books defined power armor as armor forms having a 3+ or better save, they also discuss all the various internal parts of the armor, tactical dreadnough armor ie terminator armor has all the exact same functions plus additional stronger systems than normal marine armor, allowing it to fire heavy weapons on the move.

 

Being the this is a "power armor forum" they wouldn't be allowed to be posted about here in droves here if they weren't PA. ;)

[Aidoneus]

I'm sorry paulson, fluff may be what it is, but the reality is that games workshop distinguishes between power armour and terminator armour. Just look in the space marine codex. For every unit it lists their wargear, including armour. Power armour is distinct from terminator armour. The justification may be whatever it is, but that's the way things work.

 

Think about it logically. If terminator armour were the same as power armour, the last sentence of our True Grit rule wouldn't be necessary, as all grey knights are necessarily either in terminator armour or power armour.

 

Also, as for this being a "power armour" forum, we discuss space marine scouts, inquisitorial storm troopers and henchmen, arco-flaggelants and repentia... hell, we have entire sub-forums dedicated to Chaos Daemons, not one of which wears power armour. The whole PA-forum thing is more a sort of guideline than anything

[Venerable Rhadamanthus]

I like the idea of Preferred Enemy: Daemons. It fits. That's what they train for, fight, etc all their lives. Daemons are, by definition, the GK's preferred enemy.

 

Then again...I understand the points issue. Damn GK's are expensive enough as it is!

 

I can see two ways of dealing with it.

 

1. You do something similar to what the old Dex did in giving Daemons something to balance it out without adding points and making the GK's pay for something that only works against X. And don't charge GK's for it.

 

2. You make it an ability that a Justicar, GM, BC has. Sort of like the Chaplains have their Liturgies of Battle (old Litanies of Hate). Adjust from there.

 

 

This is basically what I've been saying. I guess I wasn't being as clear as I thought. It happens sometimes. Anyway, yes, I definitely agree. My thoughts on your two options are that #1 would be harder to come up with a good idea for, and would be less minimalistic. On the other hand, for #2 it's hard to explain why some grey knights would be better at fighting deamons than others; they are ALL equally trained/experienced in fighting the daemonic. So I'm not sure where I come down on this, or if I even think it's doable. I would like to hear some specific suggestions for pro-daemon rules to counter-balance a universal preferred enemy: daemons, or alternatively, some explanations for why some GKs would have the rule while others do not.

 

 

 

Sorry..my original response was to a post GM Ty had written, so I may have missed some of your intent.

 

As for #2: Explaining why some Grey Knights are better at fighting Daemons than the rest.

 

Because they've lived longer, fought more, experienced more, lived through more, dealt with more types of Daemons, seen what works and what doesn't, developed tried and true tactics that are obeyed without question, etc. The bottom of page 7 states "If he survives long enough to become a Justicar himself..." It goes on. Pg 23 in the test for GM and BC "the bond between these individuals and their squad has often been forged in centuries of conflict." "They command an instinctive obedience from those about them..."

 

A lot of it boils down to why does a Chaplain give rerolls to Marines? Why cannot a GK hero provide the same kind of inspiration, combat tactics/knowledge/etc?

A lot of it also boils down to an easy, precedented game mechanic ala the Chaplain. And since GK units all have to have Justicars or BC, etc..then essentially they all have it. (unless you've changed that mechanic. If so, my bad.)

 

An armory item like a Grimoire might be an interesting way of doing it. Prayers that disrupt the Daemons in combat. Perhaps a psychic power even. Though losing a psychic power to put one in that is only daemon specific might kinda suck.

 

Also, as they form bonded groups and are all psykers, perhaps it can be explained as a low grade psychic gestalt..again the prayers thing that disrupt daemons. The whole unit or just the power funneled thru the psychic might of a J, BC, or GM.

 

I also like the idea Ominous put forth of it being a purchasable ability. Make it a unit upgrade ability...X pts and the whole unit gets it? Just the leaders?

 

Honestly there is a perverse part of me that says "F**k it. It fits. It's so fluffy, kittens everywhere are getting jealous! GK's are expensive enough for what they are. Just give it to em. It only affects one army and alot of the other abilities they had against Daemons don't work anymore anyways. GK's have it. No cost. Done." But that's me, so...

 

I'll give it some thought....

[Lungboy]

That is, regardless of how many models are involved, if you inflict 3 unsaved wounds, but lose 5 models, you take 2 additional saves.

 

Unless you win the combat :P

 

Aidoneus is quite correct about the armour and True Grit issue. Technically, Terminator armour is Tactical Dreadnought Armour, and is certainly not Power Armour in in-game terms sadly.

[Prathios]

Yeah thats a sad part where rules and fluff clash. Because Terminator armor is indeed power armor, but is distinguished by the rules as being separate. But its still meets every requirement to be power armor... Actually when you carve away all the extra features there is a suit of power armor at the core of a terminator, its just modified with even more of the goodies that make power armor what it is. (I don't mean there is literally a suit of armor at the core but merely that its the exact same thing at its core.) I think they should get True Grit. What did they forget how to shoot people at point blank range with the weapon mounted on their friggin wrist when they upgraded to terminators? Its like PAGK forgetting they can take objectives when they teleport in.

[paulson games]

I must have had oldschool rogue trader stuck in my head, looked through the rulebook scratched my head and had a bit of what the? moment. Fits in the fluff but sadly not the mechanics aparantly. Oh well, at least they get charge bonuses. :)

[Ominous Anonymous]

I must have had oldschool rogue trader stuck in my head, looked through the rulebook scratched my head and had a bit of what the? moment. Fits in the fluff but sadly not the mechanics aparantly. Oh well, at least they get charge bonuses. ^_^

 

And, y'know, Strength 6 power weapons. :P

[Venerable Rhadamanthus]

Ok..since it has sort of come up anyways...(and I asked Aidoneus first)...I wanted to pipe in about True Grit. It was never addressed at the beginning of this thread when Aid first listed the Special Rules.

 

So here's my opinion...feel free to fire away when I'm finished...

 

True Grit reads: Grey Knights have the True Grit ability when armed with storm bolters, enabling them to use them in close combat like lesser beings would use pistols. This means they gain the bonus attack dice for being armed with an additional close combat weapon...providing they have not charged in the same Assault phase. This only applies to GK in power armor.

 

Ok..the way this reads is that SB = Pistol in assault. Giving them the bonus dice. It follows by saying as long as they didn't charge. Which by reading it that way makes me think in the old rules even pistols didn't get the bonus dice on the charge. a=b, b does c, so a does c. But this is not the way most people read it. They did not differentiate the phrase that says they can't use it when charging enough to make me think this is something that is part of True Grit. It follows the statement about pistols, which makes me associate it with pistols in general. If they wanted the no charge bonus to be because of True Grit and not pistols..make the language clearer.

 

Anyways...rant aside... :blush: ...It plainly states that GK use SB like others use Pistols. So my logic is as follows: When others use Pistols..they get bonus attacks. When GK use SB..they get bonus attacks. Because SB are Pistols in a GK hands. GW never explains why they don't get the attack for charging...nor what the reasoning/rational is for that rule. And as the SB is an weapon with the Assault rule..not Heavy or Rapid Fire, etc...it follows that it is designed to move, shoot, assault, etc.

 

So I think they should get the dice on the charge.

 

I know this means 3 attacks on the charge. Kinda like Chaos Marines...and Assault Marines...and other races with similar abilities. Who all get it for cheaper than a GK. Chaos Marine-15 pts 3 attacks...Assault marine-18pts (and moves 12") 3 attacks, Berzerkers -21pts WS 5 ST/I 5 (on the charge) and 4 attacks!!! etc. A GK-25pts WS 5 St 6 and 2 attacks. 25pts per GK pays for the WS 5 and St 6..etc. I think the points balance out.

 

 

 

 

I believe Aid questioned making GK more brutal/effective/etc in CC. TG giving the bonus attack makes you want to get em in CC asap...or at least get the charge first. And this doesn't seem to play into the way GK would do battle. I agree to this idea on alot of levels as well! My original rant about TG was more from a rules/wording point of view. And yes it is silly that GKT's forget how to use SB in CC, but I think that is a balance issue vs other Termies..dunno.

 

 

So how about this idea...if we want to keep the "no dice" on charge...and keep the feel of steady progression to the enemy firing until CC is inevitable (which it is with hordes of daemons, FA, etc...)...then I propose this...

 

Counter-Attack. In the new 5th ed ruleset..GW gave us this new, cool Assault phase where everyone piles in anyways..and if you have CA you make a LD test and get a charge bonus. (I know, TG would need to be reworded possibly)

 

But then the new C:SM (for example) comes out and one guy can give it to one unit! That's it? What's the point in having the rule if no one gets it!?!

 

 

So....in keeping with the idea the GK are methodical in their battlefield tactics...and are "trained to fight seemingly overwhelming odds and triumph"...and are used to fighting endless, sweeping hordes of daemons from all directions that will eventually reach them in CC...and "Surpassing even their brother Space Marines in skill and ability, the level of expertise that each Grey Knight wields is such that they can exterminate a daemonic infestation that outnumbers them many times over." (pg 2 C:DH)...yes, the WS 5 in part reflects this. But the St 6 is not part of that..that is their NFW and psychic potential that does that...so with that description, etc....I like the idea of the having Counter-Attack. To me it seems to fit their play style more than Furious Charge does...and the enemy charges in..they sweep in and remove the threat first...

 

Now this may seems pretty powerful, but again..why have a rule and then let no one use it? Perhaps only certain units get it..or whatever. But I like the idea of GK's having it...

 

Just asking opinions..feel free to shoot it down, etc. No bigee...I just wanted to throw some ideas/info/gripes out into the pool!! :yes:

[Ominous Anonymous]

Now this may seems pretty powerful, but again..why have a rule and then let no one use it? Perhaps only certain units get it..or whatever. But I like the idea of GK's having it...

 

Just asking opinions..feel free to shoot it down, etc. No bigee...I just wanted to throw some ideas/info/gripes out into the pool!! :lol:

 

As the eternal devil's advocate, I'm against it if only because it would justify raising the points cost for a Grey Knight. I'd have no trouble with a Special Character giving the rule to the army/squad he's with, but that goes outside the minimalism standard we're striving for. Not to mention with True Grit as it is now (2 attacks all the time) there'd be no point in Counter Attack as we'd still be stuck at 2 attacks each.

[paulson games]

Well in the description of true grit it says they are to unweildy to gain the benefit of etxra attacks while "hurling" yourself at the enemy (ie charging) a charge is usually throwing yourself recklessly at the opponent using the weight and momentium to break their defenses. If you're running at breakneck speed into the opponentlines line you probably don't have time to aim and fire even if it's strapped to your wrist, it's very awkward to run at full sprint and do anything with your arms as you need them to help counter balance the movement orf running. The only point you break from that is at the last second to swing whatever weapon you might have. Then as it breaks into regular melee is when you start going nuts with the pistol/bolter.

 

Now if you blunder into the enemyline and a slower speed say a much more moderate run than you'd have much more opportunity to fire weapons on the advance. At least that's how I'd see it. I don't think the assault mechanics are particulary realistic in any measure. If anything the first attack of the charge should be at a higher strength to represent the impact & momentum, not granting extra attacks, as when you charge you are actually less able to react with follow up attacks.

 

Modernwarfare doesn't rely on hand to hand you always want to engage the enemy at distance so you have opportunity for cover. Even special forces units opperating at extremely close range still useir the guns, the only time knives come into play are against unsuspecting opponents who need to be elimiated with complete silence (and garottes work better for this than knives). Hand to Hand combat has been out of favor for a long time and is a very last resort effort. I really don't see that tactic changing in the far future. But sit behind cover and shoot sporadically at long ranges isn't a very dynamic feel for a game, and 40k honestly plays like a naploeonic era or fantasy battle more than anything else. (very close ranges, focus on maintaining lines of troops, then bayonet charge)

[Venerable Rhadamanthus]

Not to mention with True Grit as it is now (2 attacks all the time) there'd be no point in Counter Attack as we'd still be stuck at 2 attacks each.

 

True..but that's why I suggested a rewording of TG if CA was used.

 

 

 

As for the points issue..I'm not entirely certain a points increase in necessary...considering the new Dex's are decreasing points on a lot of units...bikes, assault marines, etc. And taking away the vet skills they used to be able to buy.

[Venerable Rhadamanthus]

Well in the description of true grit it says they are to unweildy to gain the benefit of etxra attacks while "hurling" yourself at the enemy (ie charging) a charge is usually throwing yourself recklessly at the opponent using the weight and momentum to break their defenses.

 

In my C:DH under True Grit is doesn't say anything like that. Is this described elsewhere? I put the full wording from the description in C:DH when I posted.

 

 

 

If you're running at breakneck speed into the opponents lines line you probably don't have time to aim and fire even if it's strapped to your wrist, it's very awkward to run at full sprint and do anything with your arms as you need them to help counter balance the movement of running. The only point you break from that is at the last second to swing whatever weapon you might have. Then as it breaks into regular melee is when you start going nuts with the pistol/bolter.

 

But the game mechanics allow you to fire a pistol at breakneck running speed. And GK use SB like others use Pistols. So that violates your logic. As it stands now, you can run at full speed...firing away with your pistol...and crash into melee.

 

I know the mechanics aren't realistic..I'm just question the rules as they are layed out in the current rule set. You can run into melee firing off your pistol, then attack accordingly. AKA +1 attack for cc wpn and pistol and +1 attack for charging.

[paulson games]

Daemonhunter special rules

 

C:DH page 8

 

"a stormbolter is too unweildy to be fired with one hand whilst simultaneously hurling yourself at the enemy."

 

 

Not that it makes much sense to me it could be an extension of older rules where being dual armed didn't grant extra attacks? My memory is very fuzzy about rules from 2nd & 3rd ed.

[Venerable Rhadamanthus]

C:DH page 8

 

"a stormbolter is too unweildy to be fired with one hand whilst simultaneously hurling yourself at the enemy."

 

 

Not that it makes much sense to me it could be an extension of older rules where being dual armed didn't grant extra attacks? My memory is very fuzzy about rules from 2nd & 3rd ed.

 

 

Hmmm...that isn't in my page 8 of my C:DH!! Wonder if I have a different printing...lol

[paulson games]

My copy is a second printing version dates 2002-2003 copyright (it's the currant version as I just bought it new last week)