Fixing Daemonhunters

[Ominous Anonymous]

Just thought of this shortly before poking my head in here while replying to another thread.

 

Infiltrating GK's. (In response to bikes/jump packs being un-do-able)

Shrouding, Teleporting in before the battle (like FA GK's)... Sounds like an easy outflank maneuvre right? Teleport in on a far flank then run there flanking the enemy.

 

I havent really read that anywhere, think I did once but I forget where. Infiltration for GK's? You decide. =)

 

The only problem is that the Grey Knights as of now have no units that specialize in stealth except for DCAs and Imperial Assassins (of which you'd only want or are allowed to use for Infiltrating OR Outflanking), as we've never heard of GK neophytes being sent to the field without becoming a full-fledged GK yet in the fluff.

 

I'm not against the addition of the maneuver through a new unit, but it'd be a stretch to include it as we are now without going outside the codex. Of course, that could all be poppycock without some discussion on the subject. :devil:

[Aidoneus]

There's still a main problem with bikes: there's absolutely no fluff for them as far as I know.

Not saying this can't be taken into consideration at all, but allow me to make a counter-point. Before our current codex, was there any fluff for power-armoured grey knights? Was there any fluff for grey knight land raiders? I may be mistaken, but I'm fairly sure there was no such fluff. The units were added because they were necessary for making a well-balanced, capable army. More important at the time was that there was no fluff against such units. That is, GW took the existing fluff to be incomplete, and because those new units fit within the fluff without creating any problems, they were deemed acceptable additions. My argument is the same for bikers.

 

I think on the bike versus jetpack debate you've essentially just decided you like/dislike one and that's it. When you start a thread like this it seems that you start losing focus and progress when you start unilaterally deciding on topics because of your preference.

Guys, I understand that creating a new unit goes outside my mandate of minimalism. I admitted as much in my very first post. But I didn't do that haphazardly. By giving teleport to every GK unit, I removed an entire unit from our codex. Not only that, but it was our only FA unit. I feel like it's absolutely necessary for an army to have options in every single force org category. So not only did I want to replace the unit option I removed, I felt it was even more necessary given that not doing so would leave us completely without FA options.

 

Of all possible units to include as our new FA option, bikers are by far the best. Jump packers, as many of you have pointed out, do not convey the sense of calculating purpose or elegance that are trademarks of the grey knights. Any variety of re-teleporting squad would go above and beyond what fluff says imperials teleportation technology can do. Note, imperial re-teleporting is a psychic ability, and grey knights certainly don't have technology even remotely rivaling that of the Necrons. Furthermore, whatever we might wish for, fluff says GKs use teleporters to get into battle and get out; when they're on the ground they stay there until the job is done or they're dead.

 

Bikers are good for many reasons. First, they fill the niche we need filled, in that they give us a viable fast option, to help us react to all the fast-moving daemons (and other adversaries) we face. Second, they fit the knight theme perfectly, being essentially modern steeds. Third, modeled appropriately, one can easily picture GK bikers being very sleek and elegant. Fourth, the rules are unique enough to be interesting, but do not produce a single rules-based problem.

 

So there's my argument for bikers. I didn't mean I wasn't willing to explain myself or submit to argument; it's just that I've made these points before, and each time people seem to understand where I'm coming from, but then it inevitably comes up again, and I guess I'm just a bit weary of repeating myself. But you know what, I have no right to complain. It happens. So here you go; hopefully that all makes sense to you.

 

Before we move on though, I would like to point out one thing. As much as I love having everyone contribute, and as often as I do bend to others' opinions, in the end this is my project, and whoever proposes or backs an idea, every single real decision that's made is, at the end of the day, mine. I don't mean to be arrogant or anything; it just seems like these sorts of charges are leveled whenever a project leader does not bend to someone's will, while at all other times (even as he makes executive decisions that people happen to agree with) no one complains. I guess my point is just that people need to understand that just because a project leader asks for help doesn't mean he isn't still in charge of his own project. Just sayin'. I try to be as fair and receptive as possible, so hopefully it comes out the same in the end. But I would prefer not to be labeled a tyrant just for making decisions on my own project.

 

One question that came up though is defensive grenades on GKTs. TJ (my friend) made the argument that terminators never get grenades, period. I think he's right on that point. My thought was it should be something all GK get, so that they can receive a charge as well as they give one. However, the counter to that is that GKT do in fact get extra attacks on the charge. So we could fix this by making the defensive grenade mechanic part of Shrouding or Rites or something, or we could just leave it off altogether.

Do Chaos Terminators get grenades? I could see the reasoning in not giving frags to a unit armed with Power Fists and their equivalents but our terminators are more often than not making use of our initiative.

I'm not sure you quite understood my question. GKTs don't have frags, so initiative isn't an issue. The question was about defensive grenades. I think someone else pointed out that terminator armour is just too bulky to handle grenades, which is why they never get any sort of grenades. That makes sense. So I guess the question becomes whether we should make the defensive grenade mechanic part of some special rule (for example, shrouding or rites would make all GKs count as having defensive grenades), or whether we should just accept that GKTs don't really need that mechanic, and just keep defensive grenades on PAGKs. I feel like I may not be being especially clear. Does any of this make sense?

 

Shrouding on dreads is going to cost points, period. It may or may not be broken, but you absolutely cannot argue that it isn't a benefit, and for every benefit you pay points. The question is how many points. Honestly, I think 40 is probably too much, but I want to start conservative, try it out, and if we see it's simply not making 40pts of difference in the game, we can lower it from there. My guess is that it's going to end up around 30pts, but it's really hard to tell before playtesting.

It should be expensive, but not 40 points expensive, that's nearly a third of the entire unit already. 30pts feels more reasonable, but this is up for testing.

Agreed. One thing I noticed in my first test-game, even though I didn't take shrouding, was that my hellfire dread never even got shot at. This is because of all the deep-striking, which means that there are much more pressing concerns for the enemy. Particularly, drop-podding dreads with multi-meltas are FAR scarier than hellfire dreads. So for that reason alone I think we overestimated shrouding on dreads. However, we also need to consider lists that try to make more use of this mechanic. What I want to do is try out a 1500-or-so point list with 3 shrouded hellfire dreads and psycannon GKTs, basically to see what happens when the shrouding mechanic is abused. People also need to remember that these rules need to be fair against all opponents. TJ is an avid IG player, and he was very adamant that shrouding on dreads could give him a LOT of problems in a game.

 

For now, it seems like no one thinks this is worth more than 30pts. How about we call it that for now, test it out some more, and go from there, with the mindset that it can easily be re-costed later. Does that sound like a fair compromise?

 

Vindicare's not going to BS10. At the moment, no one in the game has a higher BS than 6, so simply going to 7 is enough to say he's the absolute best. That's really all I wanted from that particular switch. It's a 1/36 difference to-hit, so it's really minimal.

For purely curious reasons, how many other models even have BS6? Or BS7 for that matter? I'm not sure if we're just adding a new member to the BS6 club or breaking new ground, which I'd like to avoid if possible.

Someone else pointed out Pheonix Lords. I had forgotten about them. So yeah, we wouldn't be breaking any new ground, but would be joining a very small and selective club. I think though that the vindicare deserves it, since that's ALL he does, and he's purportedly the BEST at it.

 

As it stands, the Lancers are 3-6 models, counting the justicar, much like ravenwing bike squads. Do you want me to up that to 3-8, like a normal spacie bike squad, sans attack bike? I don't see it making much difference, so I suppose I could. Personally, I don't think I'd ever spend points on more than 6, but that's just me.

If we have to go with bikes, might as well make them the same size as SM bike squads to reflect our Troop choices having the same size. An attack bike isn't out the question if we're already so far out, but that's just me poking fun at bikes. ;)

You're tongue-in-cheek attitude has been noted, and your case is being submitted to inquisitorial review. ;)

 

On a serious note, while I disagree with the assertion that any biker unit makes us "just like space marines," I agree that attack bikes are too far. That was decided very early on, first page I think. Anyway, it doesn't seem like anyone objects to upping the squad size to 8, and at least someone apparently thought it was higher than 6 already, so I'm going to go make the change.

 

I don't want to mess with Deathcult coherency. I think I've done enough for them with the psuedo-combat squad rule. After that it's getting into unprecedented territory, and somewhat wish-listy.

DCAs wouldn't be unique if they could space out 4' apart, considering it's only three models; vehicle squads can do it as well. :P

My reasoning is that as it stands now you generally play with your DCAs supporting each other, just not in a unit, so you want them to be close together but not so close as to have a Plasma Cannon-laden Devestator squad ruin your day and earn an easy 3 KP, or any (large) blast weapons for that matter. Just a thought.

First off, vehicle units are hardly precedent for infantry squads. Also, and perhaps this will quell your fears, when DCAs are a single squad, they only give away ONE Kill Point. Of course, if you split them up into three separate "squads" using the Strike Team rule, then they'd be 3 KPs. But of course then they wouldn't have any coherency restrictions any more, so it's a moot point. Also, for what it's worth, a plasma cannon is a terrible weapon to take out a unit of multi-wound models with invuln saves.

 

Hey I didnt see if there was a certain change. Are we able to consider whole new vehicle possibilities for the army as GK standalone choice? (If they get a GK codex, it would be theirs and not the inquisitions)

 

I would put my vote on a Psy-Predator. Turret weapon as normal, bu with possible psycannon side sponsons and the like. Would be interesting, no? I know they are anti-rhino and all. Perhaps run with new dreadnoughts and land raiders like the usual updates. I keep forgetting they streamline now each new codex =\.

Well, this being not minimalistic, it probably is an idea for another project. Certainly an interesting idea for a house rule, or an apocalypse datasheet.

 

As for dready shrouding, there are already a ton of examples of free upgrades for no points... like our thunder hammers. Or for instance how about the 1 point increase from an IST to a sister. You tellin me that the sisters aren't getting a ton of stuff free on that? Benefits are benefits, they are what they are but you're failing to put these points changes in context with the army as a whole. Unless you wanna give us devastator squads and predator annihilators I think the dreads need more love. And let me ask you, how many people here are gonna pay 200 points for a dreadnought with shrouding, cause I sure as heck won't. Need I remind anyone that shrouding is basically only going to help a percentage of the time based on distance? 40 points is worth a terminator and is literally half the base cost of a dreadnought. 30 points is enough to buy a rhino transport and still puts a Hellfire at 190 points, thats just short of a land raider still. Nobody is going to pay that many points for an armor 12 unit.

190pts? :huh: As far as I know, I hellfire dread costs 140pts base, which means 30pts for shrouding brings it up to 170pts, still 80pts shy of a land raider. Given your mid/close-range GKs can probably keep enemies from advancing too close to it, that is a very useful upgrade, and means that AV12 dread will rival the land raider for survivability, assuming all goes well. And for when it doesn't, that's why it's 80pts cheaper. ;) As I said, we'll playtest this to see where the points end up, but it will for certain be something more than free, and less than 30pts.

 

Well that's a shame, then. At the very least perhaps Dreads should be moved to the Elite slot? 90% of the time I need those Heavy slots for transports, but rarely use up my Elite slots for Terminators when most of them are in a retinue for my HQ.

 

EDIT: On second thought, in an army that can entirely deepstrike the need for transports might be lessened. However, perhaps a switch could still be considered.

This has been suggested before. What was decided was that our dreads are HS for army-balance reasons. After all, even back when our codex came out space marines had their dreads as Elites. The difference is intentional, and I think necessary. Grey Knights are all about infantry, so I think it's entirely appropriate to have to choose between dreadnoughts and land raiders.

 

I like the idea of Preferred Enemy: Daemons. It fits. That's what they train for, fight, etc all their lives. Daemons are, by definition, the GK's preferred enemy.

 

Then again...I understand the points issue. Damn GK's are expensive enough as it is!

 

I can see two ways of dealing with it.

 

1. You do something similar to what the old Dex did in giving Daemons something to balance it out without adding points and making the GK's pay for something that only works against X. And don't charge GK's for it.

 

2. You make it an ability that a Justicar, GM, BC has. Sort of like the Chaplains have their Liturgies of Battle (old Litanies of Hate). Adjust from there.

This is basically what I've been saying. I guess I wasn't being as clear as I thought. It happens sometimes. Anyway, yes, I definitely agree. My thoughts on your two options are that #1 would be harder to come up with a good idea for, and would be less minimalistic. On the other hand, for #2 it's hard to explain why some grey knights would be better at fighting deamons than others; they are ALL equally trained/experienced in fighting the daemonic. So I'm not sure where I come down on this, or if I even think it's doable. I would like to hear some specific suggestions for pro-daemon rules to counter-balance a universal preferred enemy: daemons, or alternatively, some explanations for why some GKs would have the rule while others do not.

 

Infiltrating GK's. (In response to bikes/jump packs being un-do-able)

Shrouding, Teleporting in before the battle (like FA GK's)... Sounds like an easy outflank maneuvre right? Teleport in on a far flank then run there flanking the enemy.

The only problem is that the Grey Knights as of now have no units that specialize in stealth except for DCAs and Imperial Assassins (of which you'd only want or are allowed to use for Infiltrating OR Outflanking), as we've never heard of GK neophytes being sent to the field without becoming a full-fledged GK yet in the fluff.

I think Ominous is right here. Shrouding should not be confused with stealthiness. Also, this doesn't seem like a very grey knight-ish tactic (nor a knightly one).

[Mutt-Man!]

Uhm, knightly may be in the timeline and cadre taken from history. Your right but there are a few sneaky/flanky knights out there that prefer to use tactical adversion.

 

http://www.knightsandarmor.com/history.htm

then horsemanship tactics arose... namely in the section of armored cavalry

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavalry#European_Middle_Ages

and if you would read this part and the part below it, flanking and maneuvering...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flanking_mane...king_in_history

 

Knights flanked, and horses have always been used as such along with other orders. Most knights in history were foot soldiers, knights templar is a good example of this. Knights flank, and even cut down the enemy when no quarter orders are given.

 

 

Though it mostly supports bike knights now. =P

Besides any commander with modern influence would use specialists (that each individual would cost billions in modern cash to create) to flank a vulnerable enemy point with teleportation. Shrouding in essense, is a type of visual distortion, such as camo-cloaks are. Anything that keeps me from firing at something 36" in the distance (not shoot and miss, kept from seeing it entirely) is a means to get closer without being spotted. Its not quite a smoke screen where we shoot into it like the ork bikes, its just not seen period when we fail to see it. Night time is often the time where people infiltrate, and in the spirit of the rules having Shrouding based off night fight rules, I think they would infiltrate on a general basis that they have the power even if they dont intend to.

 

To be a knight is to be superior, right? To most modern infantry of the day and age of knights that is.

[Ominous Anonymous]

There's still a main problem with bikes: there's absolutely no fluff for them as far as I know.

 

Not saying this can't be taken into consideration at all, but allow me to make a counter-point. Before our current codex, was there any fluff for power-armoured grey knights? Was there any fluff for grey knight land raiders? I may be mistaken, but I'm fairly sure there was no such fluff. The units were added because they were necessary for making a well-balanced, capable army. More important at the time was that there was no fluff against such units. That is, GW took the existing fluff to be incomplete, and because those new units fit within the fluff without creating any problems, they were deemed acceptable additions. My argument is the same for bikers.

 

I agree, but adding to existing fluff beyond what GW has given us with goes beyond our stated purpose. If GW feels that, as with the Land Raider and Power-armored Grey Knights that we could use bikes, or jump packs, or Grey Knights riding stegodons then they will give it to us. ;)

 

As it stands, this it out of our jurisdiction, so to speak.

 

Of all possible units to include as our new FA option, bikers are by far the best. Jump packers, as many of you have pointed out, do not convey the sense of calculating purpose or elegance that are trademarks of the grey knights. Any variety of re-teleporting squad would go above and beyond what fluff says imperials teleportation technology can do. Note, imperial re-teleporting is a psychic ability, and grey knights certainly don't have technology even remotely rivaling that of the Necrons. Furthermore, whatever we might wish for, fluff says GKs use teleporters to get into battle and get out; when they're on the ground they stay there until the job is done or they're dead.

 

Why is this the case, though, when we have already added the Null Zone to a list of purchaseable powers, why not add the Gate, or even a form of Warp Spiders transportation that works as a psychic test, or anything like that? Space Marines have access to reteleporation, why not us as well if we're going to be borrowing their Null Zone and their Assault Cannons and their Storm Shields?

 

Bikers are good for many reasons. First, they fill the niche we need filled, in that they give us a viable fast option, to help us react to all the fast-moving daemons (and other adversaries) we face. Second, they fit the knight theme perfectly, being essentially modern steeds. Third, modeled appropriately, one can easily picture GK bikers being very sleek and elegant. Fourth, the rules are unique enough to be interesting, but do not produce a single rules-based problem.

 

1-Viable Fast Attack option: Agreed, though I think we need to explore our options here as I've said

2-I think this falls into more of a fact vs opinion view because not everyone agrees that bikes work perfectly. Maybe it's just shell-shock to think of them on bikes after foot slogging my guys so much, but it also feels like the knightly theme is already too corrupted by having guns strapped to our wrists and whole units appearing in bolts of lightning and so on to suddenly try and add bikes and now I've gone crosseyed. :P Bikes also feel unnecessary because the army could have access to such a faster form of transportation in the form of Deep Striking.

3-Maybe, but this is dependent on both A ) one's ability to model sleeker bikes B ) GW choosing to make sleeker and more elegant bikes for an army not particularly known for using bikes and not an army like the White Scars or the Ravenwing would seem unfair.

 

And I won't even go into the 4th point because I think we need to step away from this issue altogether for the moment. Both of us feel very strongly about this issue on either side, and I think we could be more productive. Let's turn away from bikes and discuss other options for the Fast Attack slot. I for one know I'd like to discuss and shape a potential Teleportation unit that uses the Gate or something similar, but why stop there? I really like this thread and the discussions it had produced, and don't want to see it ruined over one unit. :(

 

I'm not sure you quite understood my question. GKTs don't have frags, so initiative isn't an issue. The question was about defensive grenades. I think someone else pointed out that terminator armour is just too bulky to handle grenades, which is why they never get any sort of grenades. That makes sense. So I guess the question becomes whether we should make the defensive grenade mechanic part of some special rule (for example, shrouding or rites would make all GKs count as having defensive grenades), or whether we should just accept that GKTs don't really need that mechanic, and just keep defensive grenades on PAGKs. I feel like I may not be being especially clear. Does any of this make sense?

 

A mistake on my part. I agree that Terminators shouldn't get grenades.

 

For now, it seems like no one thinks this is worth more than 30pts. How about we call it that for now, test it out some more, and go from there, with the mindset that it can easily be re-costed later. Does that sound like a fair compromise?

 

30pts sounds like a good place to leave it for now, and I don't think it'll go much lower than that.

 

For purely curious reasons, how many other models even have BS6? Or BS7 for that matter? I'm not sure if we're just adding a new member to the BS6 club or breaking new ground, which I'd like to avoid if possible.

Someone else pointed out Pheonix Lords. I had forgotten about them. So yeah, we wouldn't be breaking any new ground, but would be joining a very small and selective club. I think though that the vindicare deserves it, since that's ALL he does, and he's purportedly the BEST at it.

 

From a fluff standpoint, we would be saying that a regular human, augmented yes but with a relatively shortened lifespan due to hazardous missions would be able to outrank both centuries-old veterans of Scout companies in Space Marine chapters or even a Phoenix Lord like Maugan Ra? It definitely feels like a step too far when looked at from that angle. BS6 feels like an achievable level of marksmanship for the best human snipers in the Imperium.

 

I agree that attack bikes are too far. That was decided very early on, first page I think. Anyway, it doesn't seem like anyone objects to upping the squad size to 8, and at least someone apparently thought it was higher than 6 already, so I'm going to go make the change.

 

Eh, I feel that if bikers are in we might as well give them a Psycannon on an Attack Bike as an extra bit of firepower outside of combat.

 

First off, vehicle units are hardly precedent for infantry squads. Also, and perhaps this will quell your fears, when DCAs are a single squad, they only give away ONE Kill Point. Of course, if you split them up into three separate "squads" using the Strike Team rule, then they'd be 3 KPs. But of course then they wouldn't have any coherency restrictions any more, so it's a moot point. Also, for what it's worth, a plasma cannon is a terrible weapon to take out a unit of multi-wound models with invuln saves.

 

Plasma Cannons would cause ID if we were to fail a single 5+ invulnerable save however, with a good chance of failing it. :(

 

This has been suggested before. What was decided was that our dreads are HS for army-balance reasons. After all, even back when our codex came out space marines had their dreads as Elites. The difference is intentional, and I think necessary. Grey Knights are all about infantry, so I think it's entirely appropriate to have to choose between dreadnoughts and land raiders.

 

I agree, though one way to remedy this for both sides would be to allow Grey Knights to take dedicated transports, freeing up necessary Heavy Support slots.

 

On the other hand, for #2 it's hard to explain why some grey knights would be better at fighting deamons than others; they are ALL equally trained/experienced in fighting the daemonic. So I'm not sure where I come down on this, or if I even think it's doable. I would like to hear some specific suggestions for pro-daemon rules to counter-balance a universal preferred enemy: daemons, or alternatively, some explanations for why some GKs would have the rule while others do not.

 

I think he was referring how Chaplains give the unit the ability to reroll misses rather than one model being able to reroll misses and the others don't, though to be fair that could be chalked up to simply being more experienced. I believe this should be a purchasable ability rather than one we have to use all the time, though.

 

Though it mostly supports bike knights now. =P

Besides any commander with modern influence would use specialists (that each individual would cost billions in modern cash to create) to flank a vulnerable enemy point with teleportation. Shrouding in essense, is a type of visual distortion, such as camo-cloaks are. Anything that keeps me from firing at something 36" in the distance (not shoot and miss, kept from seeing it entirely) is a means to get closer without being spotted. Its not quite a smoke screen where we shoot into it like the ork bikes, its just not seen period when we fail to see it. Night time is often the time where people infiltrate, and in the spirit of the rules having Shrouding based off night fight rules, I think they would infiltrate on a general basis that they have the power even if they dont intend to.

 

But it's not like you're completely unaware Grey Knights are coming at you; hell, you may not even know it's Grey Knights coming at you when all you can see is a patch of reality melting like 70% Cocao dark chocolate in a double boiler, but you can't say you don't think something friendly is coming. By not being able to see them I mean that you can't get a shoot at the real body.

[Mutt-Man!]

All up to perspective on what the shrouding is in its vague descriptions. At least for now.. (mumbling about GW's lack of codex grinding)

[Wrath]

Regarding Fast Attack:

 

I'm generally against the idea of jump-pack GKs. Given that GKs regularly teleport into battle, they shouldn't need jump packs while following SOP.

 

As for bikes, something about regular bikes just strikes me as wrong. Better to give them something that operates very closely to a bike but has some other quality to it. Maybe that would require giving them jetbikes instead, or some other such change.

 

Teleporting seems like the best place to start. Since now all GKs are allowed to teleport, why not do something like this? Every GK unit can Deep Strike following the standard rules. All GKTs (including HQ units) and GKFA Teleport Squads are allowed to reroll the scatter dice (to reflect their greater expertise with the process). Thus regular GKs deep striking would not be as good at it as specialist GKFA teleporters. This might be a better way to handle it than giving GKFA tactical teleporting (which is what I really want, but so far it looks like that is pretty much not going to happen).

 

Finally, what about this? Give ISTs more of a place in the codex. Sure, they make for great cheap Troops. But why not FA or Elite or other variant options for them as well? IST Attack Bikes would make for some interesting possibilities. So would IST Drop Troops (deep striking) or IST Jump Troops (jump packs?) or whatever. Throw in IST Heavy Weapon Teams (maybe a standard IST squad but replace the two special weapons with two heavy weapons, taken from Multimelta, Heavy Bolter, etc.) for some Heavy Support options. Basically let the GKs do their thing without having to worry so much about filling all possible Org slots with multiple possible options. Allow the ISTs to take up the slack in the list to a certain extent. This would also increase options for Radical players, which is a very good thing.

[Ominous Anonymous]

Finally, what about this? Give ISTs more of a place in the codex. Sure, they make for great cheap Troops. But why not FA or Elite or other variant options for them as well? IST Attack Bikes would make for some interesting possibilities. So would IST Drop Troops (deep striking) or IST Jump Troops (jump packs?) or whatever. Throw in IST Heavy Weapon Teams (maybe a standard IST squad but replace the two special weapons with two heavy weapons, taken from Multimelta, Heavy Bolter, etc.) for some Heavy Support options. Basically let the GKs do their thing without having to worry so much about filling all possible Org slots with multiple possible options. Allow the ISTs to take up the slack in the list to a certain extent. This would also increase options for Radical players, which is a very good thing.

 

What if we were to go the Tyranid route and be allowed to field ISTs depending on how they are set up or what abilities they are given. For, if they purchase a Valkyrie as a transport and assault weapons, they can be taken as fast attack. If given Camo-cloaks and/or Infiltrate and/or Scout, they can be taken as Elites, perhaps even with Operate Behind Enemy Lines like in the Space Wolf codex if the unit only contains 5 models or so. Give them a heavy weapons team and they become Heavy Support, etc., and so on. This would go outside of the codex to give some flexibility to Radical and Puritan players, but it's something to think about.

[FunkyEntropy]

[edit: in response to Wrath]

Um, did you read the first page? All GK have been given the ability to Deep Strike.

 

Regarding you other issues, after a fair amount of skepticism, I'm actually kind of inclined to agree with you. I feel like we've been paying plenty of attention to the GK portion of the codex, but have done absolutely nothing for the radicals aside from some very minor tweaking of the assassins.

 

I like the idea of IST attack bikers because it fits with a preexisting pattern of mobility (ISTs get dedicated transports) as well as keeping "inferior equipment" out of the hands of GK. It also fits within my perception as the ISTs being a rapid response/scouting force, with GK being the heavy hitters that get called in when things get too dicey.

 

Because when you get down to it, a GK already has everything he needs to be an absolute menace on the battlefield: he has his stormbolter, his NFW, his armor, and his faith in the Emperor. He needs nothing else.

[Ominous Anonymous]

[edit: in response to Wrath]

Um, did you read the first page? All GK have been given the ability to Deep Strike.

 

Since now all GKs are allowed to teleport,

 

There is a distinct possibility. ^_^

 

I like the idea of IST attack bikers because it fits with a preexisting pattern of mobility (ISTs get dedicated transports) as well as keeping "inferior equipment" out of the hands of GK. It also fits within my perception as the ISTs being a rapid response/scouting force, with GK being the heavy hitters that get called in when things get too dicey.

 

Another good idea to consider: giving ISTs a Valkyrie or bikes as a Fast Attack option gives non-marine Inquisition players more flexibility. The question would be to model them more as Rough Riders or more as Space Marine bikers.

[Aidoneus]

Just popping in to try to keep things focused here. Remember guys, minor tweaks. There will be no ISTs on bikes nor with heavy weapons. Infiltrate/deep strike would be a possibility because there is precedent with the IG storm troopers (in fact, I think that's the other difference between ours and theirs, other than wargear choices). However, all this is sort of a moot point right now, since we're on the verge of getting new rules for ISTs. That's the reason we haven't done anything to them; we're simply waiting to copy the updates rules from the new IG codex.

 

I don't blame you for not remember this, but a long time ago we decided to mimic the IG codex and allow Valkyries to be taken as FA choices, which could then carry ISTs or Inquisitors or whatever. I'm thinking probably we should limit them to not being able to transport grey knights though, as that would be a) abusive and b} illogical, given the size+weight of GKs.

 

So yeah, we haven't done much with the inquisitorial side of things yet, but that's purely because we're waiting on codex IG. Once that comes out we can pretty easily just copy-paste the relevant entries, and be good to go.

[boreas]

Hi, just a quick question: why drop-podding Dreads? I figure if one can teleport a TDA, any reason we can't teleport a Dreadnought?

 

Also, if bikes don't make unanimity, why not a centaur-like power armour wearing GK with a lance? (just kidding, it's an awful idea but it made me laugh!)

 

Phil

[Ominous Anonymous]

Hi, just a quick question: why drop-podding Dreads? I figure if one can teleport a TDA, any reason we can't teleport a Dreadnought?

 

This came up earlier in the thread, and I think it was decided that a Dread was simply too huge for teleportation, though I wonder if dropping one in via Thunderhawk wouldn't be out of the question...

[Mutt-Man!]

Well, Legion of the Damned had "teleporting everything" in a sense, but not with known teleport tech. Though, if a whole unit of termies (individually teleported) 10 marines, its plausible that a smaller teleportable vehicle on par with a dreadnought could be thrown in. Like, sentinel statted walker with enclosed top, better BS and the half-dead body of a GK inside? Since you see how huge terminators are. And even more, how big Obiterators are (they teleport). SO why not a walker made of more metal then a normal obliterator sized model, that could arguably be like a sentinel in most respects.

 

 

Anyone like the thought? (I know, minimalism but just a subject that came to mind for topics)

[paulson games]

Wow it's been a long time since I cracked open my daemonhunters codex, it was first printing so I picked up a newer version.

 

I like some of the ideas here, but some I'm not so keen on.

 

Bikes and jump packs I don't see in a GK army, even an updated one. The art piece is impressive but there's no way that we know for certain that those are even GK's flying around back there, they could be part of an allied force or whatever. Grey Knights traditionally arrive by teleport, typically it's only the allied army that is deploying with vehicles or dropped by thunderhawks. Jet packs drop from low flying hawks and bikes come in on transport ships, neither of which we see grey knights using to a great degree. (which is why I think they should stay out)

 

Bikes make for a good for a traditional image of a mounted knight riding into battle (part of why I like them for black templars) but that said grey knights aren't the normal knights, they are the heaviest of the heavy, they are walking tanks far moreso than any other marine chapter, that's why they have both stormbolters and force weapons, but also lose their charge bonuses as they advance at their slow pace, unlike charging with wild abandon like templars. They put their battle strategy into showing up then kicking the snot out of everything from where they stand, not wheeling for posistion on the battlefiled.

 

(btw while they lose the bonus attacks on the charge they are considered double armed, so they are much more effective than people assume in cc)

 

Additionally I've always seen the grey knights teleportation to be very differant than other armies, other armies deepstrike only grey knights "teleport". The distinction on why so many of them can do it and their porting tech is vastly superior is because of their psychic ties, they are tied directly to the emperor's lineage, thus they are able to navigate the warp directly without the same "tech" that other chapters are stuck using. Using their collective mind they simply peel back the warp layer and arrive where they need to be. That's why none of the drafted guard or marine units get to teleport in the manner that only the grey knight troops can.

 

I think an army wide teleport/deepstrike for grey knight units is very fluffy/warrented, grey knights chosen as fast attack should gain the heroic intervention ability as it implies having additional training/experience, and the leaping into the fray fits as a very fluffy strategy/tactic for fast attack choices.

 

An alternate option would be to grant fast attack slot GK's the infiltrate or flank ability. Coming in behind the enemy lines without scattering can be a huge boon, and it'd differentiate the fast attack squads from the regular squads.

 

Allied guard units should be able to make use of a valkerie as a fast attack option, space marine allies would get their standard fast attack options.

 

The storm troopers and the hellguns should follow the new guard codex save for the improved BS that C:DH current has, even though they are drafted imperial guard they would be choosing from the best, thus the improved shooting ability.

 

In dealing with Daemonic forces Grey Knight units should have preferred enemy to represent the intense training and hatred they have towards their sworn enemy. It should not apply to allied units, but definately for grey knghts and perhaps inquistors. It would allow them better ability to fight against daemons without upping the general WS against other armies.

 

The orbital bombardment should be changed to be simular to the space marine commander, or rules from the new guard codex. Forego shooting to call down a template. The old rules scatter way too far and cost too many points. While the space marine commander only gets one shot per game it didn't cost any additional points. An option may be to make it so that for each smaller point cost you'd get one shot, maybe 10 points per shot. It doesn't make sense to me that if an obital strike was called in they'd keep shelling the target non stop, it'd make much more sense if the subsiquent rounds of fire could be directed.

 

I don't have the codexes on me at the moment to work out an exact ruleset or point cost but the general idea would be to mimic the offical design of the new guard/marine abilities that way their power level is on par with each other.

 

As for offsetting the bonuses vs daemons I'm going to have to re-read some things before I can offer up advice.

[Ominous Anonymous]

You...you pretty much explained my opposition to bikes and jump packs and support for more teleportation in a better way than I had...:D

 

Good show.

 

In dealing with Daemonic forces Grey Knight units should have preferred enemy to represent the intense training and hatred they have towards their sworn enemy. It should not apply to allied units, but definately for grey knghts and perhaps inquistors. It would allow them better ability to fight against daemons without upping the general WS against other armies.

 

My only problem with this idea is that, like pure Grey Knight players who don't want to be saddled with an Inquisitor just to run an Imperial Assassin, we're already paying for rules and abilities that a lot of players won't use due to a lack of CSM, Daemon, or even Eldar armies that run an Avatar.

 

Making Preferred Enemy: Daemons would be an ability that would have to justify a cost increase across the board, and that's something I'd rather avoid, or even reverse if possible. I have no problem with the ability being given to us through an item or vow like the Black Templars involving the Grand Master instead.

[paulson games]

What if you increased the cost on the daemonhammer to 50 points, and it'd grant preferred enemy to all the grey knight units (vs daemons) that way it'd be a piece of wargear allowing you to take it at will, or opt not to, and at the same time it'd function simular to a black templar oath, all nicely wrapped in a symbolic weapon.

 

(it'd stay in effect even if the bearer is killed)

 

Alternately do a simular themed piece of wargear that'd work against pyskers or models with psychic abilities so you could target things like the Avatar.

 

The emperor's champion vows in the templars is very good at times, but you have to take him plus a vow anytime you play a game, so they get saddled with point sink even if you don't want to use him. I don't find his model to be all that good honestly and I wish I could drop him and the vows most games.

 

 

THIS IS SPARTA!!!! sorry it's my 300th post! :D

[Mutt-Man!]

We all talk about bonuses, why not a reduction? (In response to the partial inquery from the above post)

 

Strength 5 NFW, and furious charge with the reduction being 2 full points a model?

 

Also, USR: Rage+preferred enemy (upgradable) as a combination effect. Trained to slaughter all daemons at all costs, and end up raging against them in the process. As a replacement for the whole daemons return cra...poop...

[Ominous Anonymous]

We all talk about bonuses, why not a reduction? (In response to the partial inquery from the above post)

 

Strength 5 NFW, and furious charge with the reduction being 2 full points a model?

 

Also, USR: Rage+preferred enemy (upgradable) as a combination effect. Trained to slaughter all daemons at all costs, and end up raging against them in the process. As a replacement for the whole daemons return cra...poop...

 

Rage is a really bad special rule to have on regular infantry, and even if we were dropped to NFW only giving +1 strength (which I'm already against), gaining Furious Charge and being able to attack before Marines would more than make up for any points discount. Not to mention the Grey Knights might be fanatics, but they're trained fanatics. They're the Navy Seals to the...well, Marine's marines (I hope I got that analogy right ;)). Even Stern was openly tempted by some Lord of Change and his only reply was to calmly tell his men to open fire on the thing. Stone. Cold. Exorcists. B)

 

If we could remove unnecessary things like immunity to minor psychic powers and Rites of Exorcism and maybe even removed Daemonic Infestation (seeing as now it's more of a hindrance to Grey Knights against Daemons), I would love to see the regular Grey Knight troop dropped to 23pts apiece with a similar decrease for Terminators and their respective Sergeants.

 

What if you increased the cost on the daemonhammer to 50 points, and it'd grant preferred enemy to all the grey knight units (vs daemons) that way it'd be a piece of wargear allowing you to take it at will, or opt not to, and at the same time it'd function simular to a black templar oath, all nicely wrapped in a symbolic weapon.

 

(it'd stay in effect even if the bearer is killed)

 

I was actually thinking more along the lines of something like the Grimoire of True Names over a weapon, depending on a preference for NFWs over Power Fists and its many siblings, but it's a step in the right direction.

 

Alternately do a simular themed piece of wargear that'd work against pyskers or models with psychic abilities so you could target things like the Avatar.

 

I think the Aegis giving us some defense against target-specific Psychic Powers like Lash and so on for our basic troops already gives us a good Psyker defense, and even if our Psychic Hoods were also given a 24' range rather than our current infinite range, we still have a good anti-psyker foundation with Leadership 10 across the board. And with the ability to take Imperial Assassins without an Inquisitor, the Culuxes would also be another great asset in an anti-Psyker arsenal.

[Mutt-Man!]

Well in the terms of simplifying things that may be done by GW is re(sellingout)vising .. Ahem... Rules that define a marine in his armor.

[Ominous Anonymous]

Well in the terms of simplifying things that may be done by GW is re(sellingout)vising .. Ahem... Rules that define a marine in his armor.

 

Not quite sure what you're trying to say here, but I can't think of any Marines that have the rage rule except for maybe the Death Company (and even them I'm not sure). I also don't see how it affect Grey Knights any differently.

[Mutt-Man!]

Berzerkers old rule, the rule that spawns go by, the rule that blood angels were afflicted by in 3rd ed, the rule that pentient engines have, the rule that dark angels were afflicted by when fallen angels were present. All different forms of the rule for various reasons.

 

If its a violently hated enemy, rage rule would apply I think. But perhaps not the best example in the imperiums finest.

[Wrath]

GKs should be disciplined. They should never lose control of themselves for any reason. They should also not be pushed too heavily into assault. As they stand now they are some of the best CC and shooty troops in the game, with stormbolters standard and their S6 NFWs. Don't change a thing there. If anything, keeping them with True Grit for their stormbolters is a good thing, since it means they get no benefit from charging (other than denying the enemy the chance to do it). GKs should not be the guys who rush headlong into combat, foresaking guns in favor of melee. They should be the guys who move slow and steady to engage the enemy, then hold the line at all cost. GKs should be the ultimate soldier. Leave it to lesser Marines to play the warrior, rushing headlong into CC regardless of discipline. This is why Fearless makes sense for GKs, too, since they hold the line. That's what they are supposed to do. When faced by the most terrifying foes the Imperium has ever seen, they hold the line. Even if it means they die to the last man, they hold the line. They don't break the line in an eager rush to come to grips with the enemy. They simply hold the line, pour bolter rounds into the foe, and then cut down anything that gets too close.

 

At least, that is how I see them. I think it fits with their whole "always outnumbered, last line of defense against the Warp" style. Leave it to regular Marines to throw themselves upon the enemy's guns.

 

Teleporting should allow GKs to sieze the strategic offensive and gain the tactical defensive, the very combination that made Napolean so hard to beat. They can appear where they are needed no matter how isolated that place may be and then hold the line.

[Aidoneus]

First off, we're splitting the ENTIRE debate about FA off into another thread, Updating GK Fast Attack. You guys have made very good points (not to say I'm convinced yet, but I at least recognize that your points are compelling), but this topic is starting to consume the project. Since it falls outside our normal limitations anyway, it simply made sense to discuss it in its own thread. That thread is still a part of this overall project though, so whatever we decide there will be included in the final product.

 

I'm putting Shrouding for dreads as a 30pt upgrade option.

 

Bikers are going up to 8-man squads, although FA in general should be considered up in the air until the other thread reaches any decisions.

 

 

Someone else pointed out Pheonix Lords. I had forgotten about them. So yeah, we wouldn't be breaking any new ground, but would be joining a very small and selective club. I think though that the vindicare deserves it, since that's ALL he does, and he's purportedly the BEST at it.

From a fluff standpoint, we would be saying that a regular human, augmented yes but with a relatively shortened lifespan due to hazardous missions would be able to outrank both centuries-old veterans of Scout companies in Space Marine chapters or even a Phoenix Lord like Maugan Ra? It definitely feels like a step too far when looked at from that angle. BS6 feels like an achievable level of marksmanship for the best human snipers in the Imperium.

First, Pheonix Lords, to my knowledge, are not super-eldar. They are not, to eldar, what space marines are to humans. They have trained for the vast majority of their extremely long lives in one discipline, and have utterly perfected it, but that does not mean they have any sort of supernatural powers. As far as I know. Correct me if I'm wrong. Further, Eldar, while being slightly above humans in marksmanship (equivalent to a basic marine, not a basic guardsman), are not all that far beyond humans in such abilities. The pheonix lords have the BS they do because they are prime, though not super-ordinary, examples of their race, and because of all the years of intensive training and experience they have.

 

Now, for the Vindicare. Again, there is nothing super-human about him. He is among the very, very best humans, probably even naturally a better marksman than a basic super-human marine, but even so the vindicare remains "only" human. He has not lived as long as a pheonix lord, to be sure. However, like the pheonix lord, the vindicare works at one discipline, and has perfected it. The difference is that, while a pheonix lord trains at a style of combat, one that would encompass multiple specific areas of combat, the vindicare trains only at marksmanship. That is all he does. So while the pheonix lord has achieved a certain level of marksmanship that almost certainly surpasses what a human could achieve given the same training regimen, that comparison isn't applicable to this situation. The vindicare does NOT train the same way the pheonic lord does, and so does not have the WS or the I or the A that the former does. What he does is train at marksmanship, and he has perfected that one specific element of battle, and should be at least as proficient at his one task as a phenoix lord is, given that the latter is also proficient at other areas of combat. This should especially be the case given the augments, super-accurate equipment, and high-tech gear (scopes, laser-sights, etc) that the vindicare would be using. That is why I think the Vindicare deserves the BS 7.

 

First off, vehicle units are hardly precedent for infantry squads. Also, and perhaps this will quell your fears, when DCAs are a single squad, they only give away ONE Kill Point. Of course, if you split them up into three separate "squads" using the Strike Team rule, then they'd be 3 KPs. But of course then they wouldn't have any coherency restrictions any more, so it's a moot point. Also, for what it's worth, a plasma cannon is a terrible weapon to take out a unit of multi-wound models with invuln saves.

Plasma Cannons would cause ID if we were to fail a single 5+ invulnerable save however, with a good chance of failing it. :rolleyes:

Okay, fair enough. But you miss my more important point. Killing 3 assassins only nets you 1 KP, which is pretty much just like any other squad you can take. And if you are willing to accept them being 3 KP, or if you're playing one of the other two scenarios, you can simply take them as 3 separate sub-units, in which case there are no coherency restrictions at all.

 

This has been suggested before. What was decided was that our dreads are HS for army-balance reasons. After all, even back when our codex came out space marines had their dreads as Elites. The difference is intentional, and I think necessary. Grey Knights are all about infantry, so I think it's entirely appropriate to have to choose between dreadnoughts and land raiders.

I agree, though one way to remedy this for both sides would be to allow Grey Knights to take dedicated transports, freeing up necessary Heavy Support slots.

I'm not sure you do agree, actually. Freeing up HS slots would be the opposite of what I think is appropriate. I think forcing them to make those choices, and only allowing a certain number of heavy vehicles, is necessary for the GK army balance, not to mention in keeping with their fluff.

 

On the other hand, for #2 it's hard to explain why some grey knights would be better at fighting deamons than others; they are ALL equally trained/experienced in fighting the daemonic. So I'm not sure where I come down on this, or if I even think it's doable. I would like to hear some specific suggestions for pro-daemon rules to counter-balance a universal preferred enemy: daemons, or alternatively, some explanations for why some GKs would have the rule while others do not.

I think he was referring how Chaplains give the unit the ability to reroll misses rather than one model being able to reroll misses and the others don't, though to be fair that could be chalked up to simply being more experienced. I believe this should be a purchasable ability rather than one we have to use all the time, though.

Again, I'm not sure you quite catch my point. However the mechanic works, whether it be giving PE as a piece of wargear, as an optional squad upgrade, or as an ability of some character, in any of those cases the fact of the matter is that some GKs will have PE and others will not. My point is that, no matter what, they should all be equally proficient at fighting daemons, and all equally zealous and devoted to doing such.

 

Anyone like the thought? (I know, minimalism but just a subject that came to mind for topics)

Sorry but... yeah, "minimalism." Again, a topic worth exploring elsewhere, but it just doesn't fit within the constraints of this project.

 

The orbital bombardment should be changed to be simular to the space marine commander, or rules from the new guard codex. Forego shooting to call down a template. The old rules scatter way too far and cost too many points. While the space marine commander only gets one shot per game it didn't cost any additional points. An option may be to make it so that for each smaller point cost you'd get one shot, maybe 10 points per shot. It doesn't make sense to me that if an obital strike was called in they'd keep shelling the target non stop, it'd make much more sense if the subsiquent rounds of fire could be directed.

I'm not sure I quite understand your complaint. Is it that you think our orbital strike are overcosted compared to equivalents? Is it that you think, whatever the cost, they are not effective? Or is it that you do not like the mechanic we use, for either fluff or gameplay reasons?

 

Strength 5 NFW, and furious charge with the reduction being 2 full points a model?

 

Also, USR: Rage+preferred enemy (upgradable) as a combination effect. Trained to slaughter all daemons at all costs, and end up raging against them in the process. As a replacement for the whole daemons return cra...poop...

We've talked earlier about how furious charge is a bad idea. If you read the BBB description of it, it basically amounts to charging madly into close combat, which is just plain wrong for grey knights. As has been said, they should be cool and calculating, zealous without losing control. The same applies for Rage, only doubly so. Plus, for both rules, I don't want to lead GKs towards being an assault army.

 

If we could remove unnecessary things like immunity to minor psychic powers and Rites of Exorcism and maybe even removed Daemonic Infestation (seeing as now it's more of a hindrance to Grey Knights against Daemons), I would love to see the regular Grey Knight troop dropped to 23pts apiece with a similar decrease for Terminators and their respective Sergeants.

GKs aren't immune to minor psychic powers. That's sisters. And since minor psychic powers don't even exist any more, it's pretty much a moot point.

 

Rites of Exorcism, even when coupled with daemonic infestation, should still be a positive. Denying them fearless? Making it harder for them to charge us? Letting us strike first when they do? Rites is a very powerful rule!

 

What I've tried to do is to keep the flavor of GKs as a highly-elite force. Lowering points costs of the basic models would go against that. Instead, what I've tried to do here is raise their abilities up to the standards set by their cost. To that end, we have improved most, if not all, of their special rules, given them kraks, frags, and defensive grenades, and allowed their justicars to take psychic powers. Seems to me like they're worth those 25pts now.

[paulson games]

I'm not sure I quite understand your complaint. Is it that you think our orbital strike are overcosted compared to equivalents? Is it that you think, whatever the cost, they are not effective? Or is it that you do not like the mechanic we use, for either fluff or gameplay reasons?

 

I think the mechanic from the orginal codex is overpriced and plays poorly compaired to the more modern renditions. It was written back in 3rd ed? Blast mechanics and AP effect have changed dramatically over the last several editions, 5th edition AP3 is being handed out everywhere and blast are far more effective as there's no more patrial hits.

 

I think having acess to orbital bombardment fits fine fluff wise as it's a tactic that states there will be no survivors, but the mechanic they used is terrible and overpriced, it fit ok back in 3rd edition when armies didn't get orbital strikes but in 5th edition it's very weak and outdated. I think a new version should be modeled after what's in C:SM or the upcoming C:IG, they are much more effective, flexible and also simplfied a bit.

 

I think if C:DH were being written under 5th edition we'd see most of the equipment having AP3 Or even AP2 rather than AP4 effects, there's not as many invunerable saves in 5th and AP effects have been pushed up so that it forces people to use cover effects. The design has changed radically from 4th edition let alone from 3rd.

[Prathios]

Someone else pointed out Pheonix Lords. I had forgotten about them. So yeah, we wouldn't be breaking any new ground, but would be joining a very small and selective club. I think though that the vindicare deserves it, since that's ALL he does, and he's purportedly the BEST at it.

From a fluff standpoint, we would be saying that a regular human, augmented yes but with a relatively shortened lifespan due to hazardous missions would be able to outrank both centuries-old veterans of Scout companies in Space Marine chapters or even a Phoenix Lord like Maugan Ra? It definitely feels like a step too far when looked at from that angle. BS6 feels like an achievable level of marksmanship for the best human snipers in the Imperium.

First, Pheonix Lords, to my knowledge, are not super-eldar. They are not, to eldar, what space marines are to humans. They have trained for the vast majority of their extremely long lives in one discipline, and have utterly perfected it, but that does not mean they have any sort of supernatural powers. As far as I know. Correct me if I'm wrong. Further, Eldar, while being slightly above humans in marksmanship (equivalent to a basic marine, not a basic guardsman), are not all that far beyond humans in such abilities. The pheonix lords have the BS they do because they are prime, though not super-ordinary, examples of their race, and because of all the years of intensive training and experience they have.

 

Now, for the Vindicare. Again, there is nothing super-human about him. He is among the very, very best humans, probably even naturally a better marksman than a basic super-human marine, but even so the vindicare remains "only" human. He has not lived as long as a pheonix lord, to be sure. However, like the pheonix lord, the vindicare works at one discipline, and has perfected it. The difference is that, while a pheonix lord trains at a style of combat, one that would encompass multiple specific areas of combat, the vindicare trains only at marksmanship. That is all he does. So while the pheonix lord has achieved a certain level of marksmanship that almost certainly surpasses what a human could achieve given the same training regimen, that comparison isn't applicable to this situation. The vindicare does NOT train the same way the pheonic lord does, and so does not have the WS or the I or the A that the former does. What he does is train at marksmanship, and he has perfected that one specific element of battle, and should be at least as proficient at his one task as a phenoix lord is, given that the latter is also proficient at other areas of combat. This should especially be the case given the augments, super-accurate equipment, and high-tech gear (scopes, laser-sights, etc) that the vindicare would be using. That is why I think the Vindicare deserves the BS 7.

 

 

 

Strength 5 NFW, and furious charge with the reduction being 2 full points a model?

 

Also, USR: Rage+preferred enemy (upgradable) as a combination effect. Trained to slaughter all daemons at all costs, and end up raging against them in the process. As a replacement for the whole daemons return cra...poop...

We've talked earlier about how furious charge is a bad idea. If you read the BBB description of it, it basically amounts to charging madly into close combat, which is just plain wrong for grey knights. As has been said, they should be cool and calculating, zealous without losing control. The same applies for Rage, only doubly so. Plus, for both rules, I don't want to lead GKs towards being an assault army.

 

 

 

Ok for starters since I was the one who brought up the phoenix lords in the first place I should explain why it made sense to me. Phoenix Lords are thousands of years old (some of them tens of thousands of years) and are masters of martial combat. Perhaps the most skilled masters of combat in the entire universe, they have no equals among any race. So how can you explain a lowly human being able to match or surpass them in shooting skill? Craziness right?

 

Negative. Vindicare have a few things that make them WAY better at shooting than anyone else in the game. From a fluff standpoint its not hard to argue for a BS8 or better on them. First off what they lack in thousands of years in training they make up for by being genetically, and mechanically augmented by every single thing the Imperium knows how to do to make them the best there is at what they do. Phoenix Lords don't have bionic implants for arm stability, eyesight, ballistics trajectory, and automatic wind calculations. Phoenix Lords don't have the exitus rifle that can hit a fleas butt at 6 miles and has a scope that in all likelihood can zoom in to see the molecules that make up the targets eyeballs. The Lords were not chosen from their people for the single point of making them the best snipers in the galaxy. There is a story about a Vindicare that waits for weeks to get a shot at his target, he gets fooled by a body double (though he cleanly hits his target) and runs from the local authorities. He has all kinds of tricks for escaping and when hes en route for extraction (picked up by a dropship while hanging from a grav shute) he kills two fighters with his exitus rifle. Then just to show how amazing they are he turns back towards the open hatch of his dropship and quickly squeezes off a round into his target from a moving aircraft at over a mile.

 

Phoenix Lords are as good as they can be with Eldar physiology. Vindicare are as good as they can be with human physiology backed by technological implants and genetic modification and the most hardcore mental and physical training regimen in the galaxy. Not hard to see the point on this when looked at in this light is it?

 

Oh and as for the furious charge and what have you. I completely agree with Aidoneus that they should not be assault orriented. However we might disagree on something. I believe all GK should be CC machines. I think in CC they need to be feared by anything, be it gene stealers or howling banshees. How do you do this, keep them from being assault oriented but make them amazing in CC? Give them bonuses when assaulted. Because this fits the fluff. GK hold their ground against tides of Deamons and then hold their ground by being incredible in CC, especially when outnumbered. They are all psychic which means they have a better awareness of the melee around them and faster reaction time than just about anything, and backed by their gear and weapons this should make them incredible at CC. They should have a kill ration in CC that is double their ranged ability, but again not when charging but when defending. Not that they should be penalized when assaulting it just should be oriented towards that end. Thats why I like the idea of additional CC attacks when outnumbered.