Fixing Daemonhunters

[Melissia]

It's not in the current C:DH FAQ, ergo ieither intrpetation could work. So use the one most beneficial to you.

[Aidoneus]

So, the options for True Grit, as I see things, are such:

 

1) Leave it the same for PAGK and GKT

2) Leave it the same for PAGK and apply it to GKT

3) Leave it the same for GKT and make it a simple +1A for PAGK

4) Make it a simple +1A for PAGK and GKT

 

Logic: I'm not endorsing one version, but I do think some have more logic than others. For example, I think it's silly (logically) that GKT do not get the same benefit PAGK do from have a NFW and SB. Did they forget how to use it?

 

Power: The first option is obviously the least powerful, and the last is obviously the most powerful, with numbers 2 and 3 somewhere in between. As always with increases in power, we need to worry about increases in points.

 

Stress: Some versions stress different things than others. For example, right now GKTs get a benefit from charging, which makes them want to charge. Giving them True Grit would eliminate that, and make them more flexible. The exact opposite is true of making True Grit on PAGKs a straight-up +1A.

 

Personally, I like the logic of keeping GKTs and PAGKs the same, and I like less stress on charging, which makes me lean towards #2. At the same time though, GKT are one of our more cost-effective units already, and I fear that such a change would necessitate a points increase (to maybe 48pts or so), and I don't like that. So I'm torn between 1 and 2 probably. But that's just me.

 

 

 

Another issue I wanted to bring up was squad-based psychic powers and Perils of the Warp. At the moment, if a GKT squad casts Holocaust, or our proposed revision of a Purg squad casts Gate of Infinity, and they get Perils, every single member of the squad gets hit. That's a S6 auto-hit against every member, with no saves of any kind allowed. Against a single 3-wound librarian that's not so bad, but against a squad of 1-wound GKs it's incredibly damaging.

 

I was thinking of changing it to D6 such hits against the unit, instead of 1 per member. Or perhaps every member is hit on a 4+ or something. Would there be support for some such change?

[jeffersonian000]

Personally, I do not see a points increase for adding True Grit to GKT's as being warranted, as they already cost more than SMT's yet are less tactically flexible. With True Grit, our GKT's can choose to charge or not, without being penalized for their high point cost. As to Holocaust, shouldn't their Aegis suits be assisting with protection from the warp and by doing so still allow an armour save versus a Perils of the Warp wound?

 

SJ

[Venerable Rhadamanthus]

Another issue I wanted to bring up was squad-based psychic powers and Perils of the Warp. At the moment, if a GKT squad casts Holocaust, or our proposed revision of a Purg squad casts Gate of Infinity, and they get Perils, every single member of the squad gets hit. That's a S6 auto-hit against every member, with no saves of any kind allowed. Against a single 3-wound librarian that's not so bad, but against a squad of 1-wound GKs it's incredibly damaging.

 

I was thinking of changing it to D6 such hits against the unit, instead of 1 per member. Or perhaps every member is hit on a 4+ or something. Would there be support for some such change?

 

 

Yikes. Forgot about that! I fully support some sort of change! Otherwise that's waay too much of a penalty for the whole unit to suffer a Perils hit! Especially since it's not like the GK version is any more powerful than the Librarian version...

 

As for wounds..I see d6 as still too much! One bad roll can wipe the unit depending on how many GK's you bought! Perhaps a d3 at most.

[FunkyEntropy]

Regarding True Grit: this is obviously a really tough decision. It's important to remember that if we decided that models in Terminator armor get to use True Grit, naturally the benefits get confered to the Brother-Captain and Grand Master as well. The flipside of this is that I don't think this will be as devastating as everybody seems to think it will be. Every single model in Term armor is killy enough already, it's not like adding an extra attack will do them any good if they already clear out their kill zone on a well executed assault.

 

Plus, I find it kind of silly that the Justicar has more attacks on average than his brethren in the GKT squads.

 

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Regarding Gate of Infinity and Holocaust, I think we really need to change the way Perils of the Warp hits squads. I think it's utterly asinine that a single botched Perils roll could cost you up to 250 (or more!) points.

 

Ways we can get around this: wargear option anyone? Saying that they no longer suffer the effects of Perils for a cost of X points?

 

Another option is, as Aidoneus suggested, to reduce the damage done. My suggest is to automatically remove one/d3 model(s) at random/your choice/opponents choice. This does two things: it means that when you suffer Perils you will lose models, but at the same time it's not going to utterly ruin your game. It takes out a lot of the randomness (am I going to lose the whole squad? Am I going to get lucky?) and gives the DH player more control, which given the nature or our army can only be a good thing.

 

For the record, I think removing one unit of your opponents choice strikes the right balance.

[Aidoneus]

Personally, I do not see a points increase for adding True Grit to GKT's as being warranted, as they already cost more than SMT's yet are less tactically flexible. With True Grit, our GKT's can choose to charge or not, without being penalized for their high point cost.

I disagree entirely with the assertion that we're less tactically-flexible than spacie terminators, and the implication that we're not as point-efficient.

 

Let's look at the facts:

 

Cons:

-we cost 5pts more than a space marine terminator

-our strength is 2 less than theirs in cc (although it's 2 more than their sgt)

-we do not have access to a heavy flamer, assault cannon, or missile launcher

-we have daemonic infestation

 

Pros:

-we strike at initiative in cc

-our squad leader has an iron halo

-we get to re-roll our deep-strike

-our army has access to cheaper teleport homers

-we have shrouding

-we have aegis

-we have rites of exorcism

-we are fearless

-our squad leader is a psyker

-we can take a squad-based holocaust

-we have access to incinerators and psycannons

 

Is it worth the 5pt? I think, in comparison to space marine termies, we are significantly more powerful, and not correspondingly more expensive. That is, I think we are more points-efficient than spacie terminators.

 

On a similar note, I think our GKTs are arguably at least as points-efficient as our PAGKs. I won't go through the point-by-point again, but apart from being not-scoring these guys are incredibly good for their cost. So I don't think any argument that they are over-priced as they are will hold much weight.

 

That being the case, and because every power increase needs a suitable points increase, if we give GKTs True Grit, we will need to raise their point cost accordingly.

 

 

 

For squad-based powers and perils, I don't like the idea of giving my opponent control of which models are removed. Better to keep the control with us. But I do agree that D6 might still be a bit too much, especially with small GKT units. I like the idea of D3 models being removed automatically. It seems like the right balance.

[FunkyEntropy]

Allow me to play a little devil's advocate:

 

1. Given the nature of 5th Ed assaults, they then to be over too quickly for True Grit (hereafter "TG") to show its worth in a squad of GKT.

 

2. Assaulting with GKT will have no noticeable benefit if they've got TG.

 

3. Any squad that assaults GKT will be sufficiently powerful to have a good chance of destroying the GKT (opponents aren't just going to throw points away) - TG is of little use if the enemy wipes your GKT off the board before they can use it.*

 

*Caveat - tarpit units. But any opponent serious about tarpiting will distribute his models to deny you as many wounds as possible during the initial charge. Given how efficiently GKT carve through average troops, having TG will probably save you a single turn at most.

[jeffersonian000]

I concur with FunkyEntropy; GKT's will only see a benefit from TG if they survive a charge with at least as many models left as the attacker has. TG is effectively useless if GKT charge, and is again effectively useless if they are charged by a larger unit with proportionally more attacks (think BT Termies with Lightning Claws). In addition, in an assault (which is where TG is used), Aegis rarely has any effect, Shrouding has no effect, and Rites of Exorcism is only useful vs a specific enemy catgory.

 

Which is why I question the need to raise the cost of our GKT's for an ability they have already paid for yet cannot use.

 

SJ

[Aidoneus]

I'm not sure where you're coming from with the whole "if they get charged it's useless" idea. If the unit charging you is initiative 5 or higher, and they have the capability to completely wipe your unit out in one round of combat, then yes, the extra attack won't help. But guys, if you're getting charged by that unit, you need to seriously reconsider your tactics.

 

What you're ignoring is all the units that are I4 or lower, but still have a decent chance of defeating your terminators over a round or two of combat. TH/SS assault termies come immediately to mind, but there are lots of other examples too. In these cases, where you get at least one chance to swing, possibly even before they do, the extra attack is very definitely useful! If they're I4 as well, it can mean the difference between them running over you vs. mutual annihilation. It might even save you from dying in the second or third round of combat, because there will be fewer enemy models to hit you then. Against I3 or worse opponents, you get the chance to swing first, so more attacks from you means fewer attacks you'll need to withstand from them.

 

Take TH/SS assault termies. Here is a unit that is very likely to charge your GKTs. They have the power weapons to kill you, and the inv saves to survive your attacks first. However, a 3++ is still not a sure thing, so the more wounds you can put on them, the more saves they will fail, and the fewer attacks they will be able to level against you when I1 comes around. With a 6-man squad of GKTs, the addition of true grit will mean about 1 more dead assault termy before they even strike, which means 3 fewer attacks that your squad has to withstand later in that round of assault. And against enemies with worse Inv saves, the difference is even more drastic.

 

So you can stop trying to convince me it's a worthless ability, because I'm simply not convinced.

[jeffersonian000]

I'm not saying that it si worthless; I stating that at 45pts, its already paid for based on how useful it actually is.

 

SJ

[Aidoneus]

I'm not saying that it si worthless; I stating that at 45pts, its already paid for based on how useful it actually is.

But it's not paid for. How could it be? The unit is viable already, and it's only increased in power with our overall changes (shrouding, fearless, et al), not to mention I actually dropped the cost by 1pt per model, just for aesthetic reasons. I don't see how you can claim that what the unit costs now encompasses an ability they do not yet have.

[jeffersonian000]

I'm claiming that at the original 46pt cost of a GKT, they are over priced for what you can do with them. Dropping it the 45pt just makes it easier to spend points in the game. However, with most of the changes you've made, GKT do seem to be of a better value at 45pts. I see True Grit as being of no real value, as it does not fully impact game play for a 45-46pt terminator, let alone a 60-61pt Brother Captain.

 

SJ

[Prathios]

Another issue I wanted to bring up was squad-based psychic powers and Perils of the Warp. At the moment, if a GKT squad casts Holocaust, or our proposed revision of a Purg squad casts Gate of Infinity, and they get Perils, every single member of the squad gets hit. That's a S6 auto-hit against every member, with no saves of any kind allowed. Against a single 3-wound librarian that's not so bad, but against a squad of 1-wound GKs it's incredibly damaging.

 

I was thinking of changing it to D6 such hits against the unit, instead of 1 per member. Or perhaps every member is hit on a 4+ or something. Would there be support for some such change?

 

Well once again let me chime in from a fluff standpoint. GK shouldn't have to worry about perils of the warp. Gk's are a peril TO the warp. Aegis should protect against perils. Or they should be flat immune. Sure, maybe the power will fail and what have you but no demon is gonna invade a GK body while he's still breathing.

 

I'm in favor of making GK immune to perils, or at the very least being able to take aegis rolls against it.

[Aidoneus]

Important Update!!!

 

We have officially concluded the sub-project of creating a new Fast Attack option. We're still waiting on codex IG to come out so we can bogart Valkyries and... whatever the other one is called, with the lascannons. Anyway, from the GK side of things we've come to a pretty popular consensus, it seems, to use a modified version of the Purgation Squad as fast attack, thereby keeping more in-touch with our minimalism, and also making that unit a viable option.

 

I'm not going to post the new rules here, but you can see them in post number 10. To see our discussion, there's a link to the other thread in my table of contents.

 

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Second order of business: I want people to start playtesting the rules we have so far. Obviously the radical side of things is still far from complete, but we should now be able to get a good handle on pure Grey Knight armies, or armies that are mostly GKs with maybe an inquisitor or assassin along with them. I've played one 1000pt game so far, and I'll throw up a link to my batrep in the table of contents. If you guys can make batreps, that'd be fantastic, but even if you don't still try to get your friends to let you play with these trial rules.

 

Along these lines, I'm going to make a new thread for posting army lists using these new rules. What I'm looking for are the best lists you can think of. Exploitive lists especially, to make sure we haven't made any of our rules accidentally too powerful. But just really solid well-rounded lists too.

 

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Now, back to business. Unless people feel strongly about it, I think I'm going to leave GKTs as they are with regards to True Grit. It just seems easier that way.

 

For Perils, no one seems to have any issues with making it so that D3 squad members simply die (no S6 hit). I'm going to update that in our rules, but feel free to still voice objections if you have any.

[Ominous Anonymous]

Sounds good. I'll see if I can get a game in on Friday and see how it plays out.

[Aidoneus]

Few quick questions:

 

Should our Land Raiders be able to purchase Multi-Meltas as per codex: space marines? If we did this, we could take the multi-melta off the crusader, make it an option, and take the base cost down to 250pts. Basically, we'd be using the exact same rules and costs as Codex: space marines, except that we'd keep the special rule for our Hurricane Bolters.

 

Feel free to object to this, but I doubt anyone will want to. I'm changing True Grit to say the model gets +1A, but never benefits from the bonus for charging into combat. For one, it makes a lot more sense. More importantly though, it saves us from getting screwed over by anything with defensive grenades.

 

Do we want to allow Improved Comms on any of our vehicles? If it gets added, I'd say allow it on chimeras. They can have comms in the old IG codex (I assume the new too, but I don't know), and it would be more balanced because you'd need to run a mixed force to use it with the GK teleporting, which of course means less teleporting (due to the chimeras/ISTs taking up points), and therefore is less abusive. Still not sure on this, but someone else suggested it.

 

Prathios: I forgot to respond to your point. While I admit you have a point from a fluff-standpoint, I'm worried about game balance. We now have quite an abundance of psychic powers (about as many as Thousand Sons can get in fact), and simply ignoring Perils would be a HUGE boost. Since GKs did not already ignore perils, I'm hesitant to change that.

[jeffersonian000]

I'm cool with dropping our special rule for the Hurricanes and porting over the whole datafax over from the C:SM just to make things even.

 

As to True Grit, I approve. It's simple and it's effectively the same thing without all the confusion.

 

As to Improved Comms, I don't care. If I have to pay for it, I probably won't; if its rolled into the cost, I'd probably forget to use it anyway.

 

SJ

[Ominous Anonymous]

-Land Raiders buying Multimeltas - Sounds good, no real objections.

 

-True Grit - Sounds perfect, no complaints

 

-I hate to ask but what do Improved Comms do again? :P

[Aidoneus]

Oh yeah, I forget not everyone here knows the IG codex. My bad. Improved Comms is a vehicle upgrade (costs as much as 2 ISTs), and allows you to re-roll one reserves roll per turn.

 

I'm sorry to see our very special Hurricane Bolter rule gone, but I suppose it would be the most fair solution.

 

Anyone else can still object to the True Grit change if they want to, but it looks like a no-brainer, so I'm going to update the Special Rules post.

[Venerable Rhadamanthus]

Few quick questions:

 

Should our Land Raiders be able to purchase Multi-Meltas as per codex: space marines? If we did this, we could take the multi-melta off the crusader, make it an option, and take the base cost down to 250pts. Basically, we'd be using the exact same rules and costs as Codex: space marines, except that we'd keep the special rule for our Hurricane Bolters.

 

Feel free to object to this, but I doubt anyone will want to. I'm changing True Grit to say the model gets +1A, but never benefits from the bonus for charging into combat. For one, it makes a lot more sense. More importantly though, it saves us from getting screwed over by anything with defensive grenades.

 

Do we want to allow Improved Comms on any of our vehicles? If it gets added, I'd say allow it on chimeras. They can have comms in the old IG codex (I assume the new too, but I don't know), and it would be more balanced because you'd need to run a mixed force to use it with the GK teleporting, which of course means less teleporting (due to the chimeras/ISTs taking up points), and therefore is less abusive. Still not sure on this, but someone else suggested it.

 

Prathios: I forgot to respond to your point. While I admit you have a point from a fluff-standpoint, I'm worried about game balance. We now have quite an abundance of psychic powers (about as many as Thousand Sons can get in fact), and simply ignoring Perils would be a HUGE boost. Since GKs did not already ignore perils, I'm hesitant to change that.

 

 

LR's: I really am good with the change to the template that LR's use in the C:SM. The Hurricane Bolter rule in the C:DH seems a precursor to PoMS...and later descriptions of Hurricane Bolters in other Codex's never referred to that in the same way again. And there's nothing in the descriptins in C:DH or the fluff to think they are different. Especially as the LRC STC was discovered by the BT's and "approved" for use by Mars. A LRC is a LRC is a LRC. Plus our opponents have enough to worry about when they face us than 1 LR that works differently than every other! As this makes it easy for everyone! :)

 

I like the change to TG! Makes it clear and easy.

 

Improved Comms. If IG have it...I'm ok with it being associated with an IG unit in our Codex!

[Ominous Anonymous]

Oh yeah, I forget not everyone here knows the IG codex. My bad. Improved Comms is a vehicle upgrade (costs as much as 2 ISTs), and allows you to re-roll one reserves roll per turn.

 

I had remembered reading the name before, but I couldn't think of the effect. Thank you for enlightening me. ^_^ That said and done, I agree with being able to have it as an option.

[Aidoneus]

Just checking in. Has anyone gotten a chance to play any games with these new rules yet? I'd really like to hear some accounts of games, even if they're not very in-depth (although that would be lovely) to get an idea of how our changes work in practice. I'm hopefully going to be able to play a game this weekend, and I'll let my opponent know ahead of time that I want to playtest these rules. Hopefully I'll be able to write out a nice battle report. We'll see.

 

Also, my friend TJ went out and bought a shiny new IG codex today. I haven't had a chance to look through it yet, but I'll try to get a gander at that later this week/weekend, and confer with TJ on ways to incorporate the new material from that. Until then, if anyone else has the IG codex and would like to make some suggestions, feel free. Having not seen the codex, I think we have already mentioned updating our ISTs to match the new storm troopers, and adding Valkyries (and possibly Vendettas) as Fast Attack Choices.

 

I am also toying with the idea of dropping the Allies rules altogether and just adding the appropriate units to our codex. We might still keep some restrictions (like no space marines with GK). I think it would make the codex a lot more user-friendly, and seems more in-keeping with other publications. Thoughts?

[jeffersonian000]

Actually, I concur with the idea of just adding the units to our 'Dex, with the same rules that are already in place for unlocking specific units (ie, need to troops to unlock a heavy). Makes things easier and lets us get by with just one 'Dex.

 

As to games with the new rules, Ill be trying them shortly, as my Duel-Redeemer project seems to be coming to a close.

 

SJ

[Wrath]

When you add the units from the IG Codex, maybe change their names by adding Inducted in front of every unit (Inducted Stormtroopers, Inducted Laman Russ, etc.), and for SM units do the same with Allied (Allied Sternguard, Allied Tactical Squad, etc.). This will make it very clear that the units are being taken directly from our own codex and not from somebody else's.

[Grey Mage]

Prathios: I forgot to respond to your point. While I admit you have a point from a fluff-standpoint, I'm worried about game balance. We now have quite an abundance of psychic powers (about as many as Thousand Sons can get in fact), and simply ignoring Perils would be a HUGE boost. Since GKs did not already ignore perils, I'm hesitant to change that.

 

A bit of an idea on the perils of the warp- it only takes on to screw it up, so why do you need to take more than one wound? Just take one wound on the squad, thats a penalty on par with the single wound on a 3 wound librarian. A GKT is 45pts, a SM Libby is say 120pts with any weapon options you might want.... true the ratio is a little better with PAGK but I think it evens out.

 

Also, theres the precident of dangerous terrain tests for bikers and JPers, and Warp Spiders.... you take one wound if you mess up in a squad.... not 10.