Fixing Daemonhunters

[jeffersonian000]

This just occurred to me, and I do not recall it being mentioned on this thread so far, but why can't we continue to use the large blast template for our teleport assault rule? If we treat the blast template as a virtual drop pod and use their inertial guidance rules, we alleviate ourselves of any need to re-roll for deep strike scatter! This will also allow us to continue to use our teleport homers as written. Minimal impact while using a current 5th Ed mechanic to reduce deep strike mishaps.

 

What do you think?

 

SJ

[Aidoneus]

Fundamental game mechanics will be in-line with the current edition. Anything else is clearly not minimalistic, and is also likely to be rejected by opponents.

[Venerable Rhadamanthus]

If we treat the blast template as a virtual drop pod and use their inertial guidance rules, we alleviate ourselves of any need to re-roll for deep strike scatter!

 

Drop pod rules are way too safe (no mishaps, just 1" away) for most people to agree to give to a whole army or even to limit it to termies and heroes.

[FunkyEntropy]

In defense of those who feel that GK should not get scatter re-rolls: what method of deep strike (hereafter DS) do GK use? Teleportation, exclusively.

 

What methods of DS do the IG use? Drop pods, grav-chutes, and aerial insertion.

 

I seem to recall a bit of fluff where some space marine termies teleported into a wall or something, losing half their squad. Teleportation is by no means safe.

 

The reason GK prefer to teleport is because it allows infantry insertion without the requirement of a certain level of preexisting military presence.

 

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On an un-related note, does anyone have any comments regarding the Icon of the Just and Refractor Field costs that I've been harping on?

 

I'd love to contribute to the field-testing, but as I've previously mentioned, all my gaming materials are back in CA.

[jeffersonian000]

The sticking point I seem to be seeing is that most opponents don't like the idea of GK re-rolling their scatter dice, especially during the teleport assault. Yet Marines get to drop pod assault without needing to even care what their scatter roll is. Yes, IG can re-roll their deep strikes, but they are not teleporting, are they?

 

I was just throwing out a suggestion that seemed like a good compromise they might not get shot down during/before play testing. I.e., place a large blast template, roll for scatter, deploy first GK within the area of the template, and then deploy the rest around the first GK per normal deep strike rules. If there is a teleport homer on the field, you may place the template centered on the homer without scatter. Simple.

 

Of course, I was just brainstorming a fix to a common problem by suggesting something already in our codex that isn’t currently spelled out that could be used in place of a re-roll others do not seem to want us to have.

 

SJ

[Aidoneus]

While teleport homers refer to the old DS rules, nowhere in our codex does it actually spell out those rules in full. Thus, to make GKs use those old rules for DS would be to change a fundamental way the game works, and that is by no means minimalistic. I understand the concern, but I strongly disagree that that is the way to solve it.

 

As I said, I'm taking out the re-rolls. There's honestly no reason for it. Nothing is wrong with GKTs using regular DS. The Purg squads will still be able to purchase the re-roll as an option, but it costs points and keeps them from taking HI or GoI, so that shouldn't be a problem.

 

I plan to look over IG costs either later tonight or tomorrow, and start working out some crossovers. I just finished the last of my schoolwork for the year, so you all have my undivided attention once more. :)

[Prathios]

In defense of those who feel that GK should not get scatter re-rolls: what method of deep strike (hereafter DS) do GK use? Teleportation, exclusively.

 

What methods of DS do the IG use? Drop pods, grav-chutes, and aerial insertion.

 

I seem to recall a bit of fluff where some space marine termies teleported into a wall or something, losing half their squad. Teleportation is by no means safe.

 

The reason GK prefer to teleport is because it allows infantry insertion without the requirement of a certain level of preexisting military presence.

 

------------

 

On an un-related note, does anyone have any comments regarding the Icon of the Just and Refractor Field costs that I've been harping on?

 

I'd love to contribute to the field-testing, but as I've previously mentioned, all my gaming materials are back in CA.

 

Yes there are stories of Space Marine Terminators teleporting into solid objects, however there are no reports of GK ever having this issue. Space Marines do not have access to the same level of teleport technology that the Grey Knights have. Grey Knight teleport tech makes drop pods look bad. The Imperium would not risk something as unique and precious as a Grey Knight in a process that has fatal errors as a rule. If it has ever gone bad for the Knights it has not been recorded for us.

[FunkyEntropy]

Yes there are stories of Space Marine Terminators teleporting into solid objects, however there are no reports of GK ever having this issue. Space Marines do not have access to the same level of teleport technology that the Grey Knights have. Grey Knight teleport tech makes drop pods look bad. The Imperium would not risk something as unique and precious as a Grey Knight in a process that has fatal errors as a rule. If it has ever gone bad for the Knights it has not been recorded for us.

 

I'm not familiar with any fluff stating that GK tele-tech is any better than what the rest of the Imperium gets. If there is, could you point me in it's direction? In the meantime, I'll stick with the old adage that a bolter is a bolter is a bolter.

 

As to us not hearing about any GK teleportation mishaps doesn't mean they don't happen. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

[Aidoneus]

Lots of updates! Huzzah! I'm leaving allies (including storm troopers) alone for the time being, just so we're not completely overwhelmed all at once. Let me know what you think about these changes (hopefully shouldn't be too controversial) and then we can move on to the meatier issues of allies. No, actually, I'll start another thread about allies. That makes more sense. So look for that in the next couple days, if not later tonight (depends on how much time I get).

 

 

Removed re-rolls from GKT.

 

Changed squad-based perils from simply removing D3 models to instead taking D3 perils attacks. Slightly less dangerous, and makes more sense.

 

I've thought of a brilliant (at least, I think so) solution to the problem of assassins being able to be taken without inquisitors vs. costing more to do so. We drop them back down to their original costs, and simply say that, "In order to be taken as allies in another force, a DH inquisitor lord must also be present in that force." That way we neither punish DH inquisitorial players, nor give other imperial armies added bonuses. Sound good?

 

I realized Digi Weapons actually let you re-roll a failed to-wound roll, not a failed to-hit roll. I'm editing our version to fit the space marine version.

 

The following armoury cost changes are in addition to (or, in case of conflict, they override) the changes in post #4. I used the base cost of an IG power weapon and power fist, and then aligned the other weapon costs based on the relative costs on space marine captains. The result should be fair and balanced, and should make CC Inq builds a bit better, although still far from especially powerful. Icon of the Just and Refractor field just seemed right at those prices, when comparing them to the Storm Shield.

 

Chainfist: 25pts

Daemonhammer: 25pts

Daemonhunter Force Weapon: 25pts

Lightning Claw: 15pts

Pair of L Claws: 25pts

Plasma Pistol: 10pts

Power Fist: 15pts

Power Weapon: 10pts

Thunder Hammer: 20pts

 

Eviscerator: 20pts

Icon of the Just: 15pts

Refractor Field: 10pts

 

 

In addition to discussing the changes above, I want to introduce two new topics of discussion, both of which have been bothering me for a while.

 

For the Gate of Infinity power on Purg Squads, I want to do one of two things:

1) slightly reduce the cost (maybe 5-10pts)

2) eliminate the rolling-doubles-for-scatter-kills-a-model rule

 

We need to decide what to do about Drop Pods. I keep meaning to bring this up, but until now have kept forgetting. At the moment, the Drop Pod assault rule comes along with the Drop Pods, and will operate in parallel to our Teleport Assault rule. I don't like that there are two rules here. There are two options for fixing this:

1) Incorporate Drop Pods into teleport assault

2) Simply delete the Drop Pod Assault rule, meaning all Pods are in normal reserves

[Aidoneus]

Really quick update (for more substance, see the post immediately above this one). Just wanted to let you all know I made a new thread, Updating DH Allies. Please check it out and post your thoughts. Thanks!

[Grey Mage]

Well myself and one of my Friends who plays GK and I did a test today, using the GoI rules on his FA GKs, he took two squads of them, and we removed the death by doubles rules, with normal scatter rules and dangerous terrain tests. I was impressed, but I dont think its overpowered. Kept my wolves on their toes though!

[Aidoneus]

Fantastic news! Glad to hear things worked out. I wonder if I might press you for a slightly longer description of the game and perhaps a bit more analysis of how the changes affected things? This thread is dedicated solely to battle reports and discussion of games played with the new rules. You don't have to do a whole completely batrep (although you certainly can if you want); simply a summary will do. You can check out post #2 there for an example of a nice, short summary that would still give us all some good information about how the changes worked out. Maybe talk specifically about the GoI purgators, and what they did, as that's something I for one (and probably others) am very interested in.

 

Thanks so much, and keep trying things out as much as you can.

[Aidoneus]

whoops, double post. sorry.

[guillaume]

Just wanted to add my 2 cents to the drop pod/teleporting debate.

 

I just finished the Grey Knight by Ben Counter, which after all represent more fluff on grey knights than any other GW publication.

 

I was shocked at how many times the grey knights and termies used drop pods and thunderhawks to make planet fall.

 

In fact, there was no mention of Deep striking/ teleporting AT ALL as a mean of transport.

 

Perhaps, we shouldnt bother with DS/teleport, but use drop pods instead.

[FunkyEntropy]

I wouldn't even consider using Ben Counter as a source of GK fluff, after all, he puts in a GK Chaplain of all things!

[Aidoneus]

Yeah, we're going with official GW fluff here, not novels based on it.

 

Additionally, I'm updating IST weapon costs and Chimera firepoints.

[guillaume]

I wouldn't even consider using Ben Counter as a source of GK fluff, after all, he puts in a GK Chaplain of all things!

 

You know what, I thought that was bizarre...very weird indeed.

[FunkyEntropy]

While you're updating the Chimera entry - is there a reason you made it so we can't take the pintle-mounted Heavy Bolter upgrade, and only the P-M Heavy Stubber?

[Aidoneus]

There was never a pintle-mounted heavy bolter, in our codex or IA:2. Only the stubber and a storm bolter are available as pintle-mounts.

[FunkyEntropy]

Ahhh. I was looking at the Chimera from the new IG codex. Which would explain why I couldn't find where the autocannon upgrade came from...

 

[edit: I finally found the pic that best encapsulates my idea for the "cyberhoss" (i.e. mechanical steed). I know it's way too late in the game to change any minds, but I just wanted to share the source of my inspiration.

 

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/9281/derm...yukisadamot.jpg

 

/edit]

[guillaume]

I would like to re-open the fearless debate if I may. If I may not, may this post be discarded then.

 

My issue with the special GK fearless rule is as follow:

 

We have decided that GK fearless rule should be:

 

Fearless: (added according to post #65)

Grey Knights are inured to every manner of horror and death from their initiation; no power in the galaxy or beyond it can blunt their purpose. As such, they are Fearless. Additionally, Grey Knights are an elite force, used to fighting against vastly superior numbers. They do not take wounds from losing close combat.

 

Yet I dont see the logical thread that says: We are elite, used to fight against the odds, therefore we dont take wounds from losing combat when everybody else does.

 

It feels too much like a quick fix. "oh...well...this rule doesn't apply to the GK, end of story"

 

I propose the following to stay within the fluff and feel of GK:

 

The GK sixth sense (or whatever you want to call it). Free psychic power that all justicars, BC and GM have.

 

After combat resolution is calculated, the GK justicar, BC or GM in the unit MAY use the sixth sense to avoid further loss. If the psychic power is passed, the unit does not take any further wounds from combat resolution. If failed, the unit takes extra wounds as normal.

 

To me this does several things:

 

1) it gives the ability to ignore combat resolution wounds which is what we are clamoring for.

 

2) there is ever slightly the possibility of a failed test, and therefore for the unit to take wounds as normal. Therefore our opponent doesn't feel cheated out of a rulebook rule.

 

3) It also forces the GK player to choose: should I use my holocaust, or should I save my psychic power for "6th sense"...again giving a + and - reason for ignoring wounds from combat resolution.

 

4) there is in fact a time when it isn't worth to roll for it. I think that on a unit of terminator, 1 wound from combat resolution will be more likely saved from armour save (2+) than from passing a psychic test.

 

5) Finally, there is always the catastrophic possibilities of losing a justicar and a few GK out of a peril of the warp roll.

 

This way, it is not an all out of nothing: the GK don't care about this rule; rather, it is more subtle way of ignoring wounds.

 

I think, it will make our opponents more likely to approve the rule. After all, it can all go pear-shaped. And for such an advantage, there should be a disadvantage I think.

 

Thanks.

[ValourousHeart]

About the Fearless Topic...

 

How about a simple solution based on an existing example in C:SM.

I don't remember if God of War makes the unit subject to No Retreat... but if it doesn't we have our answer.

 

All Grey Knights are still fearless... including the HQ Brother Captain.

 

The Grey Knight Grand Master will have God of War and will give this ability to all GK (replacing fearless).

This will make both the BC and GM a useful choice... one is cheap and the other make the army more flexable.

 

This works to show a distinct difference in experience level between the BC and GM.

[Aidoneus]

Before I respond to the last couple posts, can anyone please give me some feedback on the changes I made in post #409? There was a lot in that post, and I really want to be able to incorporate it before we get thoroughly sidetracked. I know it's inevitable, and I embrace that, but let's settle post #409 before going off on our tangent. Thanks.

 

 

 

God of War does make them subject to No Retreat, just like Iron Will, and any other such power. Also, ripping off the special rules for special characters in other codices seems like a bad idea.

 

Of course I'm willing to debate our modified Fearless rule. Here are my reasons for putting it in there:

 

1) When our codex was published, it didn't exist. So our models being Fearless at that time was awesome, hence their high point costs. Since No Retreat has been added, we've taken a significant hit in effectiveness, with no corresponding decrease in cost.

 

2) No Retreat just sucks more for us than for others. At 25 or 45 points per model, simply losing combat can be devastating enough. Add in even more wounds after the fact, and we're sunk. Losing 6pt Ork Boyz is one thing, but losing 25pt Grey Knights to combat resolution is just ridiculous.

 

3) Grey Knights are consummate masters of combat. When other units have a claim to that description, they get things like more attacks or Furious Charge. However, those don't fit the fluff or the character of Grey Knights. We're calm, methodical killers. We already have the CC abilities to eat through most enemy units, if we're given enough time. So what we needed was a defensive CC boost.

 

4) Every Grey Knight is a psyker, albeit a low-level one. This gives them the prescience to sense incoming attacks and parry them. This translates to them not taking the extra wounds from losing combat. It makes a lot of sense.

 

Perhaps it was a mistake to make it part of their Fearless rule, since it's really a different justification. But that's just where I could fit it in. However, making it a psychic power isn't necessarily the best option either. It's not so much the result of focused psychic energies being released, as it is just that each knights psychic powers give them the barest amount of prescience, which manifests as essentially just heightened reflexes. Think Anakin Skywalker being able to podrace because of his Jedi powers. It's an ability that stems from his psychic power, to be sure, but it ain't no force lightning or other more grandiose shenanigan.

 

On a more practical point, I think the very downsides guillaume mentioned are reasons why I dislike the idea. Simply put, it just neuters the whole ability, which is there to basically put them back where they started to begin with. The practical upshot of making it a psychic power is that they're still worse off than they started, just not quite so bad as they are at the moment. To me, that's just not good enough.

[FunkyEntropy]

Regarding post 409:

 

I've thought of a brilliant (at least, I think so) solution to the problem of assassins being able to be taken without inquisitors vs. costing more to do so. We drop them back down to their original costs, and simply say that, "In order to be taken as allies in another force, a DH inquisitor lord must also be present in that force." That way we neither punish DH inquisitorial players, nor give other imperial armies added bonuses. Sound good?

 

B)

Chainfist: 25pts

Daemonhammer: 25pts

Daemonhunter Force Weapon: 25pts

Lightning Claw: 15pts

Pair of L Claws: 25pts

Plasma Pistol: 10pts

Power Fist: 15pts

Power Weapon: 10pts

Thunder Hammer: 20pts

 

Eviscerator: 20pts

Icon of the Just: 15pts

Refractor Field: 10pts

;)

 

For the Gate of Infinity power on Purg Squads, I want to do one of two things:

1) slightly reduce the cost (maybe 5-10pts)

2) eliminate the rolling-doubles-for-scatter-kills-a-model rule

 

I'm leaning towards (2). The GK are the undisputed masters of teleportation and the warp (within the Imperium) and as such should be immune to such trifles.

 

We need to decide what to do about Drop Pods. I keep meaning to bring this up, but until now have kept forgetting. At the moment, the Drop Pod assault rule comes along with the Drop Pods, and will operate in parallel to our Teleport Assault rule. I don't like that there are two rules here. There are two options for fixing this:

1) Incorporate Drop Pods into teleport assault

2) Simply delete the Drop Pod Assault rule, meaning all Pods are in normal reserves

 

I have to come out strongly for (2). GK are masters of teleport assaults, not drop pod assaults. Of course, I'd have no objections if we just had the dreads teleport in (I've seen talk of them not being able to fit in the teleport pads, but I've yet to see an actual fluff citation).

[Aidoneus]

Popping my head in to see why people are being quiet. Does this mean you have no issues with my proposed changes? For the sake of progress, I'm going to assume it does. Feel free to continue debate if you see fit, but for now I'm going to go through and make the following changes:

 

Assassins are dropping back down to their original points costs, and I'm adding the rule that they may not be taken as allies unless a Daemonhunters Inquisitor Lord is also part of the force.

 

Armoury costs are being updated as per the list in post #409 (quoted by Funky Entropy in the post right before this one).

 

Purgation squads will not take wounds when rolling doubles for Gate of Infinity as stated in the power.

 

Drop Pods will not be subject to the Drop Pod Assault special rule, and will come in from reserves as normal.

 

Also, I'm about to call the Updating DH Allies thread complete, and incorporate those ideas here. Please go give that thread a quick glance-over, and give me feedback (even a simple "looks good" would be helpful). If nobody objects, I'll incorporate those ideas here in a few days.

 

After that, it's just a matter of play-testing. Guys, we NEED more real-life data before we can finalize these changes. I want to thank Grey Mage for playing a trial game, and Jeffersonian for at least trying (have your friends given way since we removed the GKTs' re-roll?). When you play a game, please post a quick summary (or, if you want to, a more detailed battle report) in the Playtesting New Grey Knights thread. Also, everyone should feel free to comment on or ask questions about reports in that thread. It's open to discussion as much as any thread in this project.