Fixing Daemonhunters

[Grand Master Iapetus]

You put a lot of great work into this Aidoneus - very nice work. All those who love Titan thank you. A few items:

 

* Fast attack - what to do, what to do? I am definitely anti-bike, drop pod etc. At the same time I find myself in the same place you do: what the heck do you put there? You could move Daemonhosts & Assassins in since they are all so sneaky...or you could say inquisitors with a transport are FA. You could also say any FA GK get the Heroic intervention in exchange for not being scoring units.

* I would love to find a way to get the dreads into the elite slot, and give us a venerable option.

* I think the GM should get the eternal warrior rule. I would say drop the IJ and use EW to differentiate BC from GM. Also, pump up BKs (in Elite and HQ) and Justicars to either have one more wound or get FNP.

* I followed that the whole army could teleport, but did you change the NFW for the GM? Still removing all wounds?

* Shrouding 3d6x2 - I think it has to be a little closer to the 24" threat bubble...

 

Again - great work, thanks for taking the time to put this down.

 

edit - sorry, this one got me thinking about more stuff after I posted:

* What about a special round for the Psycannon? S6 + 2d6, one shot.

* I was just surfing on another thread and saw the idea regarding changing shrouding to a cover save. That's not bad...not bad at all.

* If we really are the greatest warriors, shouldn't we have furious charge? Especially for the PAGK, the +1I +1S would help us against MCs and insure that our low model count / high points cost would be balanced by knocking off a few enemies before they could strike back.

[Dzudzilla]

How about storm troopers with valkyries? They are already an option for us in Apocalypse, although i think only for Inquisitors...dont have the book here with me.However that does not fix the GK FA issue...I still think the jetbike lancers are the best option...Not too SM like landspeeders or regular bikes and fluffwise...well since when has GW been consistent? OR, it could be a squad of Grey Knights with the ability to jump around the battlefield like Warp Spiders, but they would actually have to roll psychic tests...

 

*Another edit: Another point that imho should be discussed both in regards to this and the wishlisting thread is the developing trend of special characters that completely change the tactic and focus of the army.Not quite sure if the concept applies since GKs have but one foe with which they concern themselves but nonetheless...

[Grand Master Iapetus]

How about storm troopers with valkyries?

 

We have to have these - what else can escort our plastic grey knight thunderhawk, right? :devil:

[Dzudzilla]

Yeah in 2013...sorry, don't want to sound like a defeatist...nothing would make me happier than a plastic thunderhawk with for example optional GK upgrade kits but i'm kind of used to disappointment by now...Still, who else but the best selling GW army should get a plastic superheavy...Orks are getting one...Who knows...maybe they're working on it to coincede with Planetstrike...hush hush...

[Aidoneus]

Couple quick items before I reply to people:

-thinking about it some more, I'm going to lower daemonhosts to 80pts

-Adding Carapace Armour for 5pts into the armoury

 

-Thinking about letting Justicars buy psychic powers. Thoughts?

-Any ideas for a better Daemonic Infestation?

 

Also, thanks to everyone for all your suggestions and encouragement!

 

What, specifically, do you not like about the strike team rule?

I'm not entirely sure what it is, but the rule just doesn't sit right with me. Like the Rites of Exorcism rule, it just feels kind of forced or unnatural. Before I can put my finger on it, I have to know what the rule is actually trying to accomplish. Is it just because? Or is there a special reason that you feel DCA should have this ability? As for seeing lists with 9 assassins present, let's not jump to the conclusion that not giving up KP will make the DCA off the hook. If it does become a problem, you could bump squad size up to 1-4 or even 1-6, but make the unit choice only 0-1.

Okay, here's my thinking on the subject. Deathcults are bad for several reasons right now, a couple of which I've fixed (frags especially, stealth a bit). The biggest reason they're bad, by far, is that for 120pts they give up 3 Kill Points. And as anyone who has ever used assassins will tell you, it's not a matter of if they die, it's a matter of when they die! So this otherwise somewhat-workable unit can really never be taken because 1/3 of the time you're going to play Annihilation, and they'll lose you the game (or make it a LOT harder to win).

 

So I wanted to find some way of making them only give up 1 KP. There's no precedent of multiple units giving up 1 KP collectively, so I looked to the only precedent that would work: combat squads. Once I thought of this, I actually liked the idea. In some situations the assassins will be working together to accomplish their task, while at other times they will find it beneficial to split up. It's fluffy, and it makes them viable in both KP and objective games.

 

Not saying that's the only way to fix the problem, or even necessarily the best. It's just what I came up with.

 

Also, should the Culexus get an increase in cost because of the psyker immunity? If so, by how much? It's important to remember that etherium already gives it some measure of protection against psykers, especially in conjunction with the Soulless special rule.

Nah. The Culexus was pretty weak as it was, and I honestly didn't give it that much of a boost (as you said, it already had some anti-psychic protection, which I simply boosted). I'm gonna keep the points the same.

 

 

Hmm, i wonder why are Dreadnoughts considered to be too big for teleportation...I mean, we use teleports to transport entire squads of Terminators at least if you go by the description in the codex ( the fluff piece for Stern has him teleporting with his battle brothers, numbers unspecified but i'd assume that they mean more than two...and they're not jumping out one by one, all of them at once ). If a squad of fully equipped terminators are not too bulky to be teleported why should we accept as fact the notion that Dreadnoughts are?

The Grey Knights have been using this technology for millennia, surely someone must have thought of it and tried it as well...Anything to improve their chances against the forces of chaos.Probably borderline heresy on my part but nevertheless...Or do you think they are considered to be too valuable to risk their loss via an accident?

While you make a decent point, I think I'm going to err on the side of convention. Vehicles, in 40k, simply are not teleported. Dropped the the sky, tunnel underground, even summoned, but never teleported. I'm not a fluff expert, but I have to assume there's some reason for that.

 

Plus, as Tyrak points out, there is specific fluff to back up GKs using drop pods for the dreadnoughts. So I think it's safe to stick with that.

 

 

You put a lot of great work into this Aidoneus - very nice work. All those who love Titan thank you.

Thanks! :) It's always wonderful to hear one's work is appreciated!

 

* Fast attack - what to do, what to do? I am definitely anti-bike, drop pod etc. At the same time I find myself in the same place you do: what the heck do you put there? You could move Daemonhosts & Assassins in since they are all so sneaky...or you could say inquisitors with a transport are FA. You could also say any FA GK get the Heroic intervention in exchange for not being scoring units.

I can see this is going to be the area of most contention. Not sure what's going to happen yet. Although you do bring up a good point, in that perhaps the inquisitorial forces need to be represented in FA too. I think I heard in the new IG codex Valkyries will be FA, so that might be a good option. I'm going to hold off on mimicking the IG codex until it comes out though. In the meantime, would you care to explain why you're anti-bike and anti-jump pack? And if (anticipating a likely response here) you're going to say it makes us too much like smurfs, can you further explain why that is in light of all the wargear and special rule differences that will still be there?

 

* I would love to find a way to get the dreads into the elite slot, and give us a venerable option.

I think Dreads need to stay as HS in our codex. It just seems right; vehicles are either transports or HS. This seems to be as much a codex balance issue as anything. The venerable idea is interesting though. Are you suggesting something like letting one dreadnought be upgraded to venerable, giving it a re-roll on the damage table and perhaps access to a special rule (like tank-hunter or furious charge)?

 

* I think the GM should get the eternal warrior rule. I would say drop the IJ and use EW to differentiate BC from GM. Also, pump up BKs (in Elite and HQ) and Justicars to either have one more wound or get FNP.

Couple points here:

1) Why should the GM get eternal warrior? Spacie characters don't have it, nor do chaos characters. Why us?

2) Why make BCs and Justicars more resilient? For the record, the BC can buy bionics, so that's an option. But why do you think these changes ought to be made?

 

* I followed that the whole army could teleport, but did you change the NFW for the GM? Still removing all wounds?

Yep! We're DAEMONhunters! Our weapons should be able to kill daemons. But when all daemons everywhere have Eternal Warrior, you need dirty little tricks like this. And anyway, besides being entirely appropriate, I am in fact just leaving it as-written, so no one can really complain.

 

* Shrouding 3d6x2 - I think it has to be a little closer to the 24" threat bubble...

Making Shrouding way better seems to be a common theme. I'm not convinced. Your recommendation (which is among the more conservative out there) give a min of 6", an average of 21" and a max of 36." That means anything outside of 21" is going to hit less than half the time. That's better than a 4+ save that may always be taken, and taken in addition to any other saves allowed. Imagine that on SS-wielding GKTs! Don't you think that's too good?

 

For what it's worth, the GK threat bubble is actually 30," because they can move 6" before firing. Since the average range of my version of Shrouding is 28," it actually does lie within the GK threat bubble. Does that make it seem more to your liking?

 

* What about a special round for the Psycannon? S6 + 2d6, one shot.

haha... didn't even see this edit until I was halfway through my reply. Okay, these responses are right off the top of my head.

 

Why do you recommend this round? Would it be for hunting Greater, as opposed to lesser, daemons? As most GDs are only Toughness 5 or 6, is this necessary?

 

* I was just surfing on another thread and saw the idea regarding changing shrouding to a cover save. That's not bad...not bad at all.

Meh. While that is simple, what is does is make regular cover nothing but a hindrance for us. I like the visibility aspect taking place before they even roll to-hit, and then still being allowed cover and armour saves later. In point of fact, with all the cover around these days, changing Shrouding to a cover save would actually make Grey Knights worse.

 

* If we really are the greatest warriors, shouldn't we have furious charge? Especially for the PAGK, the +1I +1S would help us against MCs and insure that our low model count / high points cost would be balanced by knocking off a few enemies before they could strike back.

I'm not sure where "greatest warriors" translates into "the wild ferocity of their assaults" (from the BBB description of FC). Also, GKs are nice because they are equally good receiving a charge instead of charging, giving them a bit more tactical flexibility. I'd be willing to brainstorm about special rules within close combat, but I don't think Furious Charge is the best mechanic.

 

 

How about storm troopers with valkyries? They are already an option for us in Apocalypse, although i think only for Inquisitors...dont have the book here with me.However that does not fix the GK FA issue...I still think the jetbike lancers are the best option...Not too SM like landspeeders or regular bikes and fluffwise...well since when has GW been consistent?

Aha, you beat me to the punch with the Valkyrie thing. Can't wait to see codex: IG and add all their new stuff into this project.

 

As far as fluff, actually, GW has been remarkably consistent, given the incredible volume of fluff they produce through so many venues. And the imperium not having anti-grav (except in land speeders) is a pretty big one. I really don't want to violate that simply to appear different from other chapters. I'll pose the same question to you that I've posed to a couple other people: given all the special equipment and rules the lancers have, why does everyone think they are so indistinguishable from regular spacie bikers? Isn't that like saying regular GKs are indistinguishable from regular space marines?

 

*Another edit: Another point that imho should be discussed both in regards to this and the wishlisting thread is the developing trend of special characters that completely change the tactic and focus of the army.Not quite sure if the concept applies since GKs have but one foe with which they concern themselves but nonetheless...

This is an interesting idea, and certainly something to talk more about. My initial feeling is that the spacie characters give different rules to represent different chapters: it's not so much that having 1 captain present changes an army's functioning, as it is that character is an indication of the chapter the army comes from, and the special rules are a part of that chapter's doctrine. Given that, and given that Grey Knights are only one chapter, I'm not sure how we could fit something like that into our codex. But again, that's just my initial thought, and I'd definitely love to hear any ideas you guys come up with.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

How about storm troopers with valkyries? They are already an option for us in Apocalypse, although i think only for Inquisitors...dont have the book here with me.

 

Forgeworld has already given Inquisitors, Inquisitor Lords and Storm Troopers that option In Imperial Armour 2.

 

I'm not sure where "greatest warriors" translates into "the wild ferocity of their assaults" (from the BBB description of FC). Also, GKs are nice because they are equally good receiving a charge instead of charging, giving them a bit more tactical flexibility. I'd be willing to brainstorm about special rules within close combat, but I don't think Furious Charge is the best mechanic.

 

Agreed. True Grit should stay, it's as much our hallmark as our Storm Bolters.

[Dilgar]

Grey Knight bikers...hell no!...otherwise nice. I also agree that DH don´t need new units except the fast attack choice jump infantry. I don´t wanna see us turn into another SM chapter.

 

The orbital bombardments should also be improved, I think it is a wonderful addition and makes us stand out. It also fits our fluff 100% :wallbash:

 

And as u guys stated, the WS should really be higher, in my opinion one higher one everyone except henchmen and IST. Our Ini sucks so we need to hit with the units still left fighting :/

[Skyhawk]

I, on the contrary say:

- Bikers yes - A nicely armored, new gothic bike would be called for.

- Jump Infantry is a no no. That IS smurfy and not really any "Knightly".

 

The idea of mimicking Warp Spiders is cute, but would it work?

 

Justicars might get a 2nd wound and perhaps some minor psychic buffs for the squad (similar to Warlocks).

 

Otherwise all of your work, Aidoneus, has been EX-CELL-ENT!

Especially the denying of fearless to the daemons.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

The idea of mimicking Warp Spiders is cute, but would it work?

 

How about giving the Swooping Hawk "jump out" ability to Purgation Squads? They can jump away from potential CC threats (though they lose a turn of shooting) and can re-Deep Strike elsewhere. However, due to the shorter range of Psycannons, misjudge it and your Purgation Squad will be caught and locked in combat. Plus don't take the Grenade Pack ability as well, that really would be copying.

[Dzudzilla]

I was actually thinking about an assault or vehicle demoliton squad that uses some kind of SM Gate of infinity psychic power equivalent to respond to the biggest threat...They would have to roll for the psychic test, with some advantage i.e. they would be immune to Perils, and would not scatter. And of course they would be able to assault afterwards.Another idea i had before i went to sleep was something along the lines of the Timeshift Daemonhost power...Maybe a squad with option to purchase that or gate for the justicar, except their timeshift equivalent would not double their number of attacks, it would simply grant them +D6 I in addition to doubling the movement and assault ranges. It seems reasonably Fast and i sure as hell would use them to Attack something...The bike issue seems to divide people a lot so maybe it would be best to let it go and try to think of something else.

[Verythrax Draconis]

On Dzudzilla comment on SC:

 

Well, needless to say, I'm 101% into that idea :)

 

I understand Aidoneus point about characters being used to make chapters unique, but I don' t agree completely, since it's simply the way SMs use them - it's not necessaryly true for other races/armies.

 

And since GKs are an elite force, they have much more of room for individualism (they can even use personal heraldry) so a captain/grand master having the autonomy/liberty to customize his own way of fighting doesn't seem far-fetched to me. And we need to consider that the GKs, while being SMs fluff-wise, are a complete different beast rule-wise: one more reason to make them more customizable, so 2 people with the same codex will not necessarily play the same list (what is one of the major complains about the actual GKs)

 

And a side note... an idea just occurred: How about a Sister of Silence unit? It could work like priests in the WH list. They would be attached to a squad making the immune to psykers. Of course, it can be pretty useless on GKs, but a bless to IST units. It could be added to both DH and WH lists, since the SoS seems to be already attached to the Inquistion at one of the smaller Ordos (the Ordo responsible for the Black Ships, that wasn't named so far, I believe)

[Gentlemanloser]

A lot of hard work here! It's very interesting! :P

 

While you make a decent point, I think I'm going to err on the side of convention. Vehicles, in 40k, simply are not teleported. Dropped the the sky, tunnel underground, even summoned, but never teleported. I'm not a fluff expert, but I have to assume there's some reason for that.

 

The old Deathwatch Kill Team could by ommision Deep Strike Razorbacks. ;) But that's more than likely just an error! Inall seriousness, I could see Dreadnoughs able to be Teleported. They're a close enough hybrid of vehicle/infantry to not illict the scorn a Teleporting Land Raider would. ;)

 

Couple points here:

1) Why should the GM get eternal warrior? Spacie characters don't have it, nor do chaos characters. Why us?

2) Why make BCs and Justicars more resilient? For the record, the BC can buy bionics, so that's an option. But why do you think these changes ought to be made

 

Two Spaces characters do now have Eternal Warrior. MC and Lyscander.

 

I think our ICs should be buffed, becuase supposidly the best of the best are now weaker than the new Spacies. WS6 a minimum, and 2W minimum as well. There isn't a Spacie IC that has lower than 2W.

 

I'm not sure where "greatest warriors" translates into "the wild ferocity of their assaults" (from the BBB description of FC). Also, GKs are nice because they are equally good receiving a charge instead of charging, giving them a bit more tactical flexibility. I'd be willing to brainstorm about special rules within close combat, but I don't think Furious Charge is the best mechanic.

 

Thing is, counter Attack is out due to True Grit.

 

And now days, every CC unit worth thier salt has at least 2 Attacks base. Usually Three or more on the charge, and with CA allowing you to retain the charge bonus when charged, it makes our CC prowess a little limp (with it really only relying on our S6 as a lynch pin. But when you face Units that have S5 Power Weapons, and they all have 3+ attacks, it gets hard to swallow).

 

How about a Sister of Silence unit? It could work like priests in the WH list. They would be attached to a squad making the immune to psykers.

 

You can do it now with an Inquisitor and a Null Rod.

[Dzudzilla]

In my view of the Grey Knigts Furious charge really does not translate that well...I always saw them more as cold calculating professionals who also happen to be fanatics. More methodical than just running head-first into the closest enemy screaming and waving their weapons...They've been doing this for a long time and have been trained to keep a clear head even in the face of unspeakable horrors....At least , that's how i think of them.

 

 

*edit for some typos...

[Verythrax Draconis]

You can do it now with an Inquisitor and a Null Rod.

Sure, but think about the minis :P

[Skyhawk]

In my view of the Grey Knigts Furious charge really does not translate that well...I always saw them more as cold calculating professionals who also happen to be fanatics. More methodical than just running head-first into the closest enemy screaming and waving their weapons...They've been doing this for a long time and have been trained to keep a clear head even in the face of unspeakable horrors....At least , that's how i think of them.

 

 

*edit for some typos...

 

My very sentiments exactly! Brothers! Let us say NO to Grey Knight devolving to mindless barbarism!

 

Additionally I see Grey Knights as a tactically flexible but strategically defensive army.

In otherwords we do not attack daemonworlds, we react to the threat that has allready breached the warp on a Imperial world an in such a situation the Grey Knights are in a constant strategic defensive untill the infestation is defeated.

Rules-wise we should recieve more defensive bonuses in rules but offensive ones in wargear.

Shrouding is allready one such bonus. Any idea on other measures to increase survivability of our brethren?

[Verythrax Draconis]

Additionally I see Grey Knights as a tactically flexible but strategically defensive army.

In otherwords we do not attack daemonworlds, we react to the threat that has allready breached the warp on a Imperial world an in such a situation the Grey Knights are in a constant strategic defensive untill the infestation is defeated.

Rules-wise we should recieve more defensive bonuses in rules but offensive ones in wargear.

Shrouding is allready one such bonus. Any idea on other measures to increase survivability of our brethren?

 

While I really dig the concept, I see a problem, translating it to rules. the GKs already are a tough nut to crack, if we improve it much more, they will me immortals - while not being able to kill that much :P

 

I prefer to think of them working as kill-teams, almost like Deathwatch: they deep strike/teleport behind enemy lines, do a single but fiercely blow and come back. Of course, they would be a "bigger" force then DW, since being stealthy is not a concern, but to deliver a strong punch.

[Dzudzilla]

I think what Skyhawk meant was that they are not the aggressor most of the time, they respond to threats that arise . I don't think he was implying that they participate in all-out defensive warfare along the IG, unless of course the situation calls for such actions...

[Skyhawk]

I think what Skyhawk meant was that they are not the aggressor most of the time, they respond to threats that arise . I don't think he was implying that they participate in all-out defensive warfare along the IG, unless of course the situation calls for such actions...

 

Quite right. Even a small Strike Team that assaults an enemy supply depot that is preparing forces for an attack on Imperial lines is acting tactically offensive while in a strategic defense.

That is how I see GKs.

 

- Striking Cult gatherings, summoning icons & rituals. Killing demagogues & summoners. And when the threat spirals out of control... A full frontal purging.

[Verythrax Draconis]

I think what Skyhawk meant was that they are not the aggressor most of the time, they respond to threats that arise . I don't think he was implying that they participate in all-out defensive warfare along the IG, unless of course the situation calls for such actions...

 

 

My comment isn't about the defensive actions per se, but about increasing the GKs survivability SOrry for not be clear enough.

[number6]

Putting my moderator hat on:

 

I want to point out that Aidoneous's original stated goal was minor tweaks to the existing codex -- with the notable exception of new Fast Attack units. Unsurprisingly, the discussion immediately turned into yet another GK wish-list/rules development topic. (We have had a large number of these in the past several months, and, IMHO, don't really need another one.)

 

So I'm stating now that I will entertain this topic in its current form only so long as Aidoneous is willing to entertain it. So far, he seems up to the task of handling all the responses, and I'm also very impressed with the tone so far demonstrated in this topic. Most of the previous ones in this vein have had to be shut down because of intractable fights that break about between purists of one stripe or another (e.g., codex fluff purists vs black library fluff purists).

 

However, a topic this active is almost impossible for we moderators to stay on top of. So as a favor to everyone, please continue to keep your posts as positive and constructive as they have been, and all will be well. If anyone feels that a post is out of line, please restrain any impulse to reply in kind -- or even at all -- and simply use the REPORT function. Marshal Paul and I will respond, but we do have lives outside of the B&C, if you can believe that.

 

Now back to your regularly scheduled discussion....

[Gentlemanloser]

I think the idea of Grey Knights with Furious Charge might be more influenced from Dawn of War. :devil:

 

There, it was the GK squads power, allowing them to charge rapidly into combat and knock back foes.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Gentlemanloser Posted Today, 03:14 PM

I think the idea of Grey Knights with Furious Charge might be more influenced from Dawn of War. :)

 

There, it was the GK squads power, allowing them to charge rapidly into combat and knock back foes.

 

Yes, Dawn of War being renowned for it's adherence to existing fluff. :devil: :)

[Prathios]

To the bikes I have to say no. Jump Packs I'm ok with but Bikes is a bit too much. These guys are for all intents and purposes Paladins... I can't really see a holy warrior riding a hog.

 

"Brother Tancred I have returned from west coast choppers, behold the might of my new custom hog!!!"

 

I can see it now, on the back of their armor it says "If you can read this my B**ch fell off." pardon the language <_<

 

Hover bikes are a tad easier to stomach just due to the high tech nature of the =I= and the Knights having the best equipment.

 

Jump packs fashioned to look like wings or something of that nature would be very easy to stomach. Some kind of unique jump packs would be very fluffy and cool. The knights are all about fast attack and it would still be possible to deep strike an assault squad.

 

I don't think furious assault works very well. Counter attack is out I guess but I did have one thought that would be a minor change but reflect the characters well. How about a CC rule that gives them bonus attacks for being outnumbered. Grey Knights are psychers so they don't really have a blind side and since they are generally behind enemy lines they are outnumbered 90% of the time. I think it would be fair to give up to 2 extra attacks depending on how many enemy models they are engaged with. This gives them an ability that works on offense and defense without changing too much. Perhaps cap it at 4 attacks maximum.

[Dzudzilla]

I think the idea of Grey Knights with Furious Charge might be more influenced from Dawn of War. <_<

 

There, it was the GK squads power, allowing them to charge rapidly into combat and knock back foes.

 

 

Even though that may be the case i still think there are better ways of translating that into tabletop...like the option to buy heroic intervention for every single GK infantry unit and allowing them all to deepstrike...that would surely get them into cc pretty fast indeed. Plus i think no-one wants to take the 6 strength NFW and with furious charge that would climb up to 7...which imho is a bit of an overkill and would cause balance issues...we might as well call them plasma force weapons. Sorry if i sound irritated, not intended. Just voicing my opinion.

[Inquisitor =D=]

I don't think furious assault works very well. Counter attack is out I guess but I did have one thought that would be a minor change but reflect the characters well. How about a CC rule that gives them bonus attacks for being outnumbered. Grey Knights are psychers so they don't really have a blind side and since they are generally behind enemy lines they are outnumbered 90% of the time. I think it would be fair to give up to 2 extra attacks depending on how many enemy models they are engaged with. This gives them an ability that works on offense and defense without changing too much. Perhaps cap it at 4 attacks maximum.

 

Sacred Feth! You've given me an idea! Does anybody remember the old tau codex? Aun Shi had the ability to drop one of his own attacks to decrease the attacks of everyone else in CC. Could we integrate that into a IC? It would represent the character's mastery with weapons combined with his psychic powers? That would be awe inspiring to see. And yes, I'm aware it would make people want to get into CC but with the newer CC rules being too good is dangerous so it would cause Gk players to carefully consider committing him to the attack and it could be used defensively too. Thoughts on this?

 

As for the fast attack ideas I'll be honest. I don't like them. They need something to truly make them Gk's. I'm more for the bikes if any though so I'll discuss on those(Jump packs are out in my mind). I think what would convince me on the bikers is some kind of specialist bike... it doesn't even have to affect the rules but... argg... so hard to put into words. I just can't see a Gk riding a grease slicked brick with wheels. I would have to see something converted... I'll give this some more thought I just woke up...

 

=]D[=