Fixing Daemonhunters

[Aidoneus]

Here's my problem with making a list of 'daemons' in 40k: as soon as a new codex comes out, our list is out of date. We could add the stipulation that these are the existing daemon units, but that new codices might add more, but in that case we're just relying on common sense in specific cases. I guess we could always rely on FAQs when new codices come out, but I'm sure we all have an equally low opinion on GW's FAQ quality of late.

 

I guess the best we can do now is to just give the list (mine earlier, plus spawn, plus perhaps a couple from Lost and the Damned), and then say use common sense for newer publications and apocalypse. It's not perfect, but I suppose it's the best we can do. Also, we can drop the daemon weapon thing. It was just an idea, but probably best to leave alone. Also, I'm going to put this in with the special rules, just so it's obvious and easy to find.

 

For the psycannon bolt idea, I'm not convinced. If you desperately want your inquisitors to have them, just slap on a 2pt bolter and upgrade that.

 

As an aside, I remembered earlier a discussion from some wishlist thread about justicars being able to hurt soulgrinders in close combat. Some people were pretty incensed that they couldn't, and were offering radical ideas that were transparently just attempts to make justicars super-powerful against soulgrinders. I wanted to point out that a nice side-effect of making anointed weapons a weapon upgrade like we did was to solve that problem in an elegant, minimalistic, and fluffy way. Well done guys. Go us! ^_^

 

Mani: I just wanted to say that reading the first two paragraphs of your post made me feel incredibly good, and I think anyone else who has contributed to this thread should feel the same way. Thank you. And yes, although it's a long-shot, I do intend to send our results both to GW and BoLS once we wrap this up. Who know? Maybe some of these ideas will see the light of day sometime. We can hope.

 

For the storm shield, I actually meant it exactly as it is written. That's the exact effect of the new Space Marine storm shields. I agree that it makes very little sense, but who am I to complain?

 

For jump packers, there are a few instances where they pop up. For example, this picture (courtesy of BoLS), which was officially commissioned by GW. The 18" thing is mostly for gameplay balance, as you said, but I feel it can be justified by pointing out that it's much harder to aim accurately when flying around on a jump pack. Sort of the same logic behind rapid-fire weapons; the bullets don't cease to go as far when the model moves, they just become less accurate, and therefore their effect becomes negligible after a shorter distance. As you said, it's not a perfect, nor an entirely elegant solution, but it's hopefully not too ridiculous.

 

RLS: Okay, I think we've gotten enough support for the new weapons costs and daemonic infestation rules. I'll go add those to my main posts.

 

For scourging, after making it AP4 and assault 4, is it really so bad? Compare it to Smite. You gain 6" range, +1S, and ignore inv saves, but you lose 2AP. I, for one, think that's a fair trade. Also, compared to the psycannon, you lose 1S and more range while standing still, but gain 1 more shot and cost 5pts less, plus you don't use up a weapon slot. Again, I don't see a clear winner. Of course, the original version of scourging was pretty lackluster, but with those changes I think it becomes a viable option.

 

Edit: I still would like to hear opinions about the following:

-should ranged weapons be allowed to be anointed?

-should the vindicare be given two of each special round?

-should scourging be made AP4 and Assault 4?

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Edit: I still would like to hear opinions about the following:

-should ranged weapons be allowed to be anointed?

 

No. If you dip your gun in scented oil, all you will do is clog up the firing mechanism with stickiness. Nemesis force weapons don't have this problem.

 

-should the vindicare be given two of each special round?

It could work, but it would definitely be something that should be playtested first. There's a fair amount of potential for brokenness there.

 

-should scourging be made AP4 and Assault 4?

 

I like it. It makes it worth losing a round of shooting.

[FunkyEntropy]

The reason I've been advocating for strom bolters as opposed to bolters is that there's a matter of effective range and role. Bolters are most effective at 12" and under- the range at which you can rapid fire them. This makes bolters a short-ranged weapon. And at that range I think most people would rather just use plasma.

 

Stormbolters are medium range firepower. This makes them more compatible with the standard Inq firebase loadouts. In order to get the most use out of bolters one must rapid fire them, completely negating the effectiveness of the heavy weapons servitors.

 

Just something to consider.

 

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Did we ever iron out a point cost for the Icon of the Just and Refractor Field? My opinion is that the Icon should cost exactly as much (or maybe +5pts max) as a Stormshield, with the Refractor costing about 5~10 points less than that. My reasoning for the Icon costing as much as a Stormshield being that while taking no hands to wield, it provides an inferior save.

 

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I heartily approve of giving Scouring a flat number of shots. Randomness is for Orks.

 

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If the Vindicare gets to use special ammo every turn, it's hardly "special" anymore, right? Maybe if we boosted his normal shooting?

 

Off the top of my head, how about a new special rule:

 

Headshot!: A roll of 6 to hit/wound/whenever will cause an additional wound/double the number of wounds/Instant Death.

 

->Double wounds would be particularly nasty when combined with the Turbo-Penetrator round, a lucky roll causing 4 wounds!

 

I'd also love to see the range of his gun extended.

 

Another idea: High Penetration rounds: Allows the Vindicare to shoot through (and ignore) cover.

 

[edit: could someone refresh my memory about Anointed Weapons? My codex is back in CA. My initial feeling is that I don't have a fluff problem with it - given the general Imperial view of technology, a quick dip in oil is probably the least of a firearms worries. However, given that one of main weakness of the DH army is a lack of ranged anti-tank weaponry, giving them an effective means of dealing with tanks at range - even if it's just a small subsection of tanks - strikes me as being completely out of character for the army.]

[Prathios]

The reason I've been advocating for strom bolters as opposed to bolters is that there's a matter of effective range and role. Bolters are most effective at 12" and under- the range at which you can rapid fire them. This makes bolters a short-ranged weapon. And at that range I think most people would rather just use plasma.

 

Stormbolters are medium range firepower. This makes them more compatible with the standard Inq firebase loadouts. In order to get the most use out of bolters one must rapid fire them, completely negating the effectiveness of the heavy weapons servitors.

 

Just something to consider.

 

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Did we ever iron out a point cost for the Icon of the Just and Refractor Field? My opinion is that the Icon should cost exactly as much (or maybe +5pts max) as a Stormshield, with the Refractor costing about 5~10 points less than that. My reasoning for the Icon costing as much as a Stormshield being that while taking no hands to wield, it provides an inferior save.

 

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I heartily approve of giving Scouring a flat number of shots. Randomness is for Orks.

 

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If the Vindicare gets to use special ammo every turn, it's hardly "special" anymore, right? Maybe if we boosted his normal shooting?

 

Off the top of my head, how about a new special rule:

 

Headshot!: A roll of 6 to hit/wound/whenever will cause an additional wound/double the number of wounds/Instant Death.

 

->Double wounds would be particularly nasty when combined with the Turbo-Penetrator round, a lucky roll causing 4 wounds!

 

I'd also love to see the range of his gun extended.

 

Another idea: High Penetration rounds: Allows the Vindicare to shoot through (and ignore) cover.

 

Randomness is for Orks... and psykers. So sadly there is some precedent there. However I'll totally give you that it would be much better at a flat assault 4. So I heartily approve as well, this is a super highly trained psyker after all with all kinds of wards.

 

I really, really, dig the Vindicare idea of "headshot" that's a fantastic rule. After all as of right now hes not really good at doing what snipers do, which is one shot one kill on mvp stuff. If you roll a six to hit/wound while using a turbo pen round on just about any model it should be an instant kill. Maybe greater demons and such survive but anything T4 should die. If this rule were to be implemented I'd have to figure out some way to get a voice recording of the unreal tournament guy yelling "headshot" for my games.

 

And finally I have a suggestion I don't remember seeing in this discussion. Dreadnoughts, Shrouding, do it. Noughts should benefit from EVERY SINGLE GK special rule. After all they are GK... :D

[FunkyEntropy]

So maybe (assuming we adopt the Headshot! special rule) it should cause one additional wound?

 

Most of the really big nasties (Hive Tyrant, Carnifex, Daemon Prince) have four wounds. No one, not even the best sniper in the Imperium, should be able to take out these guys in one shot in my opinion.

 

Plus, it would really, really suck to be on the receiving end.

 

On the other hand, I can totally see a headshot with the Turbo-Penetrator causing the head of even the nastiest of critters to simply cease to exist.

 

In any event, we also need to iron out when the rule would come into effect.

 

Listed in frequency with which the rule will be activated:

 

Whenever a 6 is rolled

To Hit only

To Wound only

 

Balancing this can only be achieved through playtesting I think. Having the rule proc off of hits means you'd be bypassing the To Wound roll, which is something that definitely needs to considered when weighing these options.

 

[edit: That being said, my own personal preference is having it happen the most frequently but with the least power. Most of the time you're aiming at squad leaders anyway, so the extra power of the shot is wasted, but it's more fun (since you get to say, "headshot!" a lot.]

 

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As much as I'd absolutely love to see shrouding on Dreads, I think it'd be way over-powered. Most DH players use the Hellfire configuration to compensate for their otherwise non-existent anti-tank. A skilled player will do his best to keep them at 48", which would make them virtually untouchable when combined with the slightly improved version of shrouding that Aidoneus came up with.

[Aidoneus]

Edit: I still would like to hear opinions about the following:

-should ranged weapons be allowed to be anointed?

No. If you dip your gun in scented oil, all you will do is clog up the firing mechanism with stickiness. Nemesis force weapons don't have this problem.

Okay, fair enough. I was more or less of this opinion anyway, so that settles it. If you want to take down a big nasty daemon, you're going to need to get up-close-and-personal to do it (or, you know, shoot with with a lascannon :P )

 

-should the vindicare be given two of each special round?

It could work, but it would definitely be something that should be playtested first. There's a fair amount of potential for brokenness there.

Yeah, I agree. I'll get back to this later.

 

-should scourging be made AP4 and Assault 4?

I like it. It makes it worth losing a round of shooting.

Cool. Consider it done.

 

The reason I've been advocating for strom bolters as opposed to bolters is that there's a matter of effective range and role. Bolters are most effective at 12" and under- the range at which you can rapid fire them. This makes bolters a short-ranged weapon. And at that range I think most people would rather just use plasma.

 

Stormbolters are medium range firepower. This makes them more compatible with the standard Inq firebase loadouts. In order to get the most use out of bolters one must rapid fire them, completely negating the effectiveness of the heavy weapons servitors.

I agree with what you say, but unless I'm mistaken it just boils down to "storm bolters are better than bolters." Uh... duh? I don't mean to belittle your argument; all I'm saying is that I don't see the connection between that statement and the necessity to package psy-bolts (to use the shorthand) with storm bolters. If you want a cheap way to get psy-bolts, the bolter is a decent option that's only 2pts. If you really want the more effective storm bolter with psy-bolts, you're going to have to pay more. And since I don't see anything being problematic or ineffective the way things are, I see no real driving reason to "fix" it.

 

(also, for the record, the bolter works fine with a firebase retinue. If you're not moving, the bolter gets to shoot the exact same distance as the storm bolter. Sure, you get one less shot, but that's not really a problem with codex design so much as just the fact that you bought a cheaper weapon)

 

Did we ever iron out a point cost for the Icon of the Just and Refractor Field? My opinion is that the Icon should cost exactly as much (or maybe +5pts max) as a Stormshield, with the Refractor costing about 5~10 points less than that. My reasoning for the Icon costing as much as a Stormshield being that while taking no hands to wield, it provides an inferior save.

No, we never did get around to that, or CC weapons. I kinda want to put these all on hold for a little bit, if you guys don't mind, until the new IG codex comes out. I want to see which of these upgrades have equivalents in the IG codex, and how much they cost there. Seems like a good starting point for pricing upgrades for humans. When the IG codex comes out, if they don't have any equivalent upgrades like the Icon or Refractor, remind me of this suggestion, and we can hash it out then.

 

If the Vindicare gets to use special ammo every turn, it's hardly "special" anymore, right? Maybe if we boosted his normal shooting?

 

Off the top of my head, how about a new special rule:

 

Headshot!: A roll of 6 to hit/wound/whenever will cause an additional wound/double the number of wounds/Instant Death.

Nice. I wonder if I could propose an alternative mechanic to fit the fluff. Hold on a moment though. I'll get to that at the end.

 

And finally I have a suggestion I don't remember seeing in this discussion. Dreadnoughts, Shrouding, do it. Noughts should benefit from EVERY SINGLE GK special rule. After all they are GK... :rolleyes:

As much as I'd absolutely love to see shrouding on Dreads, I think it'd be way over-powered. Most DH players use the Hellfire configuration to compensate for their otherwise non-existent anti-tank. A skilled player will do his best to keep them at 48", which would make them virtually untouchable when combined with the slightly improved version of shrouding that Aidoneus came up with.

What Funky said. I really couldn't have said it better myself. It would just be too good. Also, if you'd prefer a fluff-based-reason, it would be pretty darned hard to hide an entire dreadnought, even with psychic energies. But primarily it's the gameplay balance.

 

 

Now, as promised, I want to propose a new version of the rule for the Vindicare. It won't be flashy, or super-powerful. Remember, minimalism. But here it is:

 

Headshot: Whenever the Vindicare rolls a 6 to-hit (on his first roll to hit; not on his re-roll) against a model with a Wounds characteristic, he does not need to roll to-wound, and instead wounds automatically.

 

Is essence, I've given him the old (useful) version of rending. After all, what is the primary deficiency of the Vindicare? That he only wounds on a 4+. This rule mitigates that a bit, making him that much better. And since his rifle is AP2 anyway, the fact that you don't get a chance to use normal rending is moot. I think it's a small enough change that it wouldn't require any increase in points. What say you? (to the idea itself or to points values)

[FunkyEntropy]

I can see where you're going with giving the Vindicare the old rending rules, but what happens if you roll a 6 and you're using the Hellfire round? SOL, try again next time? Actually, that impacts my original suggestion as well. Any thoughts on how to not make it suck for the DH if he gets lucky and "wastes" the special ammo?

 

Also, I'm pretty sure he doesn't get a any re-rolls, so you can probably leave that language out.

 

But I like what you've come up with. I like my original idea better, granted, but minimalism being the name of the game I think I can deal with your watered down version :rolleyes:.

 

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I understand your argument that stormbolter>bolter, I just feel that, given that one can either grab the SB+psybolts or a plasma pistol (or even the combi-plasma) for the same number of points, people are going to choose the plasma every time.

[Prathios]

And finally I have a suggestion I don't remember seeing in this discussion. Dreadnoughts, Shrouding, do it. Noughts should benefit from EVERY SINGLE GK special rule. After all they are GK... :rolleyes:

As much as I'd absolutely love to see shrouding on Dreads, I think it'd be way over-powered. Most DH players use the Hellfire configuration to compensate for their otherwise non-existent anti-tank. A skilled player will do his best to keep them at 48", which would make them virtually untouchable when combined with the slightly improved version of shrouding that Aidoneus came up with.

What Funky said. I really couldn't have said it better myself. It would just be too good. Also, if you'd prefer a fluff-based-reason, it would be pretty darned hard to hide an entire dreadnought, even with psychic energies. But primarily it's the gameplay balance.

 

 

Yes heaven forbid, its a terrible idea. What was I thinking... Its just a robot anyway, its not a hero of the imperium encased in a cybernetic coffin who has seen and done more than most Chapter Masters. We wouldn't want to spend even one moment of our time trying to figure out a way to lend them some benefit. Increased size = more dice to roll or something like that would just be stupid. So moving on to ideas that don't suck....

[FunkyEntropy]

And finally I have a suggestion I don't remember seeing in this discussion. Dreadnoughts, Shrouding, do it. Noughts should benefit from EVERY SINGLE GK special rule. After all they are GK... :woot:

As much as I'd absolutely love to see shrouding on Dreads, I think it'd be way over-powered. Most DH players use the Hellfire configuration to compensate for their otherwise non-existent anti-tank. A skilled player will do his best to keep them at 48", which would make them virtually untouchable when combined with the slightly improved version of shrouding that Aidoneus came up with.

What Funky said. I really couldn't have said it better myself. It would just be too good. Also, if you'd prefer a fluff-based-reason, it would be pretty darned hard to hide an entire dreadnought, even with psychic energies. But primarily it's the gameplay balance.

 

 

Yes heaven forbid, its a terrible idea. What was I thinking... Its just a robot anyway, its not a hero of the imperium encased in a cybernetic coffin who has seen and done more than most Chapter Masters. We wouldn't want to spend even one moment of our time trying to figure out a way to lend them some benefit. Increased size = more dice to roll or something like that would just be stupid. So moving on to ideas that don't suck....

 

We're not trying to make light of your idea, it's just there's very little that could be done that wouldn't be 1) insanely OP 2) insanely expensive or 3) unnecessarily complex.

 

As nice as it would be to have something OP for a change, we all know that the SMURFs would :censored: to high heaven, and nothing motivates GW like the bleating sobs of SMURFs. That or they'd wind up getting the Shrouding too during the next round of codex creep.

 

Secondly, the GK have enough overly-expensive toys to play around with (which is why I've been advocating points reductions wherever possible), no need to add to the mix.

 

Thirdly, the closest I can get to having a simple rule would be to have them roll either 4d6x3 or 4d6x4 (effectively doubling the range of the shrouding) instead of 4d6x2, and even that strikes me as being unnecessarily complex because you wind up with two different versions of the same rule. To give you full measure, because I get the feeling you're heavily invested in the idea of dreads getting shrouding, the simplest way to do it would be to say,

 

Roll for The Shrouding as normal, but double the result.

 

[edit: I'd also like to add that it could also result in some unforeseen creep in our own codex. Namely, if the Dreads get the Shrouding, why not the Land Raiders too? Surely the GK would want to protect those as well? Land Raiders are piloted by Grey Knigts too! And what happens when you've got a GK squad being transported in one - whose rules do you go by? The squad? The Land Raiders? Somewhere in between? Like I said - it's too complex.]

[Grand Master Tyrak]

[edit: I'd also like to add that it could also result in some unforeseen creep in our own codex. Namely, if the Dreads get the Shrouding, why not the Land Raiders too? Surely the GK would want to protect those as well? Land Raiders are piloted by Grey Knigts too! And what happens when you've got a GK squad being transported in one - whose rules do you go by? The squad? The Land Raiders? Somewhere in between? Like I said - it's too complex.]

 

I agree. Whilst it would be nice to get Dreadnoughts with Shrouding, once you start down that road you will just keep going. Whilst the Dreadnought getting it is the most reasonable in terms of game balance, look at it this way: if a single GK can shroud his Dreadnought suit, why can't a squad of Grey Knights Shroud their Land Raider?

 

EDIT: Thought of something. How about we treat Shrouding as an applicable power? So, a squad of Grey Knights could choose to instead grant their Shrouding to any one vehicle within 12", rather than use it on themselves? It does give the Dreadnought some good protection, but with the high points cost of GKs it's something that has to be thought out and could come back to haunt you. After all, there will be no such thing as a 'cheap squad' of Grey Knights hiding behind terrain giving Shrouding to the Dreadnoughts.

Add in a minimum squad size, say a 5-man squad can use it on Dreadnoughts and a 10-man squad can also use it on Land Raiders.

[Wolf's Bane]

Edit: I still would like to hear opinions about the following:

 

Here are my thoughts ...

 

-should ranged weapons be allowed to be anointed?

 

yes, I think so. Look at our cousins, SM guard veterans, the have annoined weapons (2+ to wound) against every enemy army

 

And look to our niddle pistols, the are annoined weapons (4+) against every enemy army.

 

In my point of view, there is nothing flyffy by we could not get a ranged anointed weapon. For example, there is some kind of acid liquid in the bullet that get no armour save against it and always wound on 4+ or 2+ or something like that.

 

-should the vindicare be given two of each special round?

 

I would not make that. I would make the following: The rifle is one of the best in the imperium, so, he wounds in a 3+. Still gets one of each special round. This with his WS of 6 is enough, in my point of view.

 

-should scourging be made AP4 and Assault 4?

 

I would not make the AP4 change. I'm with you about getting a static number of shots, Assault 4 for a 20 points power is ok, but I would not change the AP. Instea, I think it is much more better to have a increased range, so instead of 18" maybe we should have a 24" range, like our storm bolters.

 

So, if you would have a Assault 4, Strength 5, AP5, Ignore Inv, 24" power pyschich for 20 points, 5 less than a Psyco Cannon is ok for me.

 

I would let our GM to buy two powers too (maybe letting him to get some equipment by xx points). That would be another difference between the GM and the Brother Captain.

 

I would like a GM with the Sourging and the Destroy the Daemon power psychichs! ;)

[Grand Master Tyrak]

In my point of view, there is nothing flyffy by we could not get a ranged anointed weapon. For example, there is some kind of acid liquid in the bullet that get no armour save against it and always wound on 4+ or 2+ or something like that.

 

Then why not simply offer Hellfire rounds as an upgrade? Or take inspiration from some of the old Deathwatch special ammunition? A gun does not have to be anointed to get more dakka.

[Red Lost Soldier]

I like the new scourging actually now, looking at it proper. I probably admit I wasn't too objective before, after play with my Jump Librarian and expecting =][= to be their equal just isn't on. I actually quite like it now, good for ripping through basic daemons or medium infantry.

 

The Vindicare is a tough one, lots of good solutions. I like the old rending rule the best, representing the shot going really well, kind of like the different area wounding systems in other games in a simpler way suited for 40k. After all if you hit the head, it's going to hurt. With vehicles it could either be ignored (there's no head on a vehicle), or add an extra dice to vehicle penetration (except for TP round) to represent hitting an exposed fuel line or something.

[Twin .44]

yes, I think so. Look at our cousins, SM guard veterans, the have annoined weapons (2+ to wound) against every enemy army

 

That's the ammo, not an annointed weapon.

 

 

And hey, did everybody forget something. Shouldn't Daemon hunters have Preffered (sp) Enemy: Daemon? Since they kinda fight them all the time, wouldn't they be used to fighting them???

[Grand Master Tyrak]

And hey, did everybody forget something. Shouldn't Daemon hunters have Preffered (sp) Enemy: Daemon? Since they kinda fight them all the time, wouldn't they be used to fighting them???

 

Yes, if you are prepared to have basic Grey Knights going up to 30-35pts each for an ability that only works against one army.

 

Personally, I'm not so keen on shelling out for an ability that doesn't work in 90% of my games. I would just be a ball and chain around my army.

[Twin .44]

Meanwhile Black Templars get it to their entire army in 50 points plus the cost for the Emperor's champion and Tyranids can get feeder tendrils for almost dirt cheap. I highly doubt it would cost that much when terminators with a 3+ invulnerable are running around at 40 points...

 

I'm just saying it makes plenty sense since they do it constantly.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Twin .44 Posted Today, 03:24 PM

Meanwhile Black Templars get it to their entire army in 50 points plus the cost for the Emperor's champion and Tyranids can get feeder tendrils for almost dirt cheap. I highly doubt it would cost that much when terminators with a 3+ invulnerable are running around at 40 points...

 

Feeder Tendrils are not available to the entire army. Besides, if we got Preferred Enemy: Everyone, it wouldn't be so bad, since despite the points cost it will always work. You're talking about paying for an ability that only works against one army, an army that isn't very common.

If I'm facing Marines, I do not want to be forced to pay for an ability that doesn't work.

[Wolf's Bane]

Twin .44 Posted Today, 03:24 PM

Meanwhile Black Templars get it to their entire army in 50 points plus the cost for the Emperor's champion and Tyranids can get feeder tendrils for almost dirt cheap. I highly doubt it would cost that much when terminators with a 3+ invulnerable are running around at 40 points...

 

Feeder Tendrils are not available to the entire army. Besides, if we got Preferred Enemy: Everyone, it wouldn't be so bad, since despite the points cost it will always work. You're talking about paying for an ability that only works against one army, an army that isn't very common.

If I'm facing Marines, I do not want to be forced to pay for an ability that doesn't work.

 

Maybe we will se our WA drop to 4 and get instead Preferred Enemy against Daemon. Maybe, in this case, we can see some points drop for our miniatures and get the same result as now against daemons.

[Twin .44]

You're talking about paying for an ability that only works against one army, an army that isn't very common.

 

I wasn't discussing points yet first of all. i was merely saying "why wouldn't they have it?" And I would not be willing at all to pay 5-10 points for preferred enemy per model. thats an extreme amount to be paying whether it's preferred all or preferred daemons. And I'm fully aware that feeders aren't available to the entire army.

 

But another point is, everyone's talking about teleporting GK troops (fluffy and cool I agree) but there was no point increase there. i'd rather have preferred enemy against me than teleporting like no tomorrow.

[ripath]

If I'm facing Marines, I do not want to be forced to pay for an ability that doesn't work.

see my self quote

 

On the subject of the dread with shrouding. I favor it. Not a land raider though. A dreadnaught uses the Knight's spirit to run itself. A landraider has a machine spirit which is undeniably not a grey knights. As for balance make it an 0-1 choice like it should have been all along. One dread at max range won't be able to do much due to getting only two shots. Also deepstriking or drop poding enemies will butcher a hellfire Dread in close combat. The shrouding also will be near unusable against things such as melta weapons which have a short range and extra armor penetration. It would only be good against tanks.

 

After some thoughts I am going to retract certain points of my previous statement. First Make two dreadnaught entries:Close combat (multimelta, assault cannon, close combat weapon) And hellfire(everything else). Hellfire dreads should be an 0-1 choice. However, close combat dreads should be allowed to have as many as you can fit into a list. Keep the prices the same add the option to take an additional close combat weapon and maybe the Ironclad's armor values. The close combat dreads can't have weapons with a range greater then twenty four and will be no problem for an opponent to destroy. It also makes the use of a close combat dreadnaught possible and would very fluffily help GK deal with any armor. Be honest now, how many of you would want to field the CC dreads over the hellfire?

 

my thoughts on NFW

 

Anyway have we worked out a system for Nemesis force weapons ignoring invuln saves yet? because every opponent I play thinks that they automatically ignore them. How about everyone has the option to ignore them. but you can't use it as a power weapon at the same time? at least not until a higher level like maybe GKT and BC. Also I want to know how many units have both an armor and an invulnerable save, and how often such units are used in mass numbers.

 

If your worried about overpowering GK, how many armies besides daemons have invulnerable saves on everything besides their elites and HQ. Anyway its called economy, for things with a greater invuln save then their armor will be devastated by gkpa, for everything else its a useless power that won't get used. But besides daemons I can't think of a unit with them. Basically all this will really do is make it so that GKT can effectively kill SS/TH terminators. And that we can actually kill daemons but if we follow our current rules trend that is a preposterous notion, Obviously daemon hunters are supposed to get hunted by daemons.

 

look at pg 8

"The daemonic infestation rule is intended to offset some of the daemonhunters advantages against daemons without penalizing them when fighting non daemonic armies."

the solution is simple we update daemonic infestation, and since there are no more victory points this rule doesn't put the daemon player at a huge disadvantage, ie the 4th ed killed to a man but victorious slaughter gk game. Now I understand why they didn't faq that. because otherwise there is no way we could beat daemons right now. Oh god that would be so horrible.

[Aidoneus]

EDIT: Thought of something. How about we treat Shrouding as an applicable power? So, a squad of Grey Knights could choose to instead grant their Shrouding to any one vehicle within 12", rather than use it on themselves? It does give the Dreadnought some good protection, but with the high points cost of GKs it's something that has to be thought out and could come back to haunt you. After all, there will be no such thing as a 'cheap squad' of Grey Knights hiding behind terrain giving Shrouding to the Dreadnoughts.

Add in a minimum squad size, say a 5-man squad can use it on Dreadnoughts and a 10-man squad can also use it on Land Raiders.

As with every suggestion, we must ask 1) is it mandated, or at least supported, by fluff? 2) Is it a minimalistic change (i.e. one that keeps the same spirit and mechanic of the rules now)? and 3) is it too powerful? In this case, I personally see this idea as failing all three categories. I'm not saying it's not a nifty idea; I'm just saying I don't think it fits into this project. So unless you can give compelling arguments for all three questions, I think we'll have to pass on this.

 

 

-should ranged weapons be allowed to be anointed?

yes, I think so. Look at our cousins, SM guard veterans, the have annoined weapons (2+ to wound) against every enemy army

 

And look to our niddle pistols, the are annoined weapons (4+) against every enemy army.

I think you're confusing anointed weapons with poisoned ammo. No one's going to go through and bless every bullet with sacred oils. I agree with, I'm pretty sure it was Tyrak, in thinking it's a mechanic best suited to close-combat weapons.

 

I would let our GM to buy two powers too (maybe letting him to get some equipment by xx points). That would be another difference between the GM and the Brother Captain.

Good call. I didn't realize he could only get one power. Heck, Stern has two, and he's only a lowly Brother-Captain (albeit a quite exceptional one). So yeah, the GM will definitely be allowed a second.

 

 

I like the new scourging actually now, looking at it proper. I probably admit I wasn't too objective before, after play with my Jump Librarian and expecting =][= to be their equal just isn't on. I actually quite like it now, good for ripping through basic daemons or medium infantry.

Cool. I'll add that in.

 

The Vindicare is a tough one, lots of good solutions. I like the old rending rule the best, representing the shot going really well, kind of like the different area wounding systems in other games in a simpler way suited for 40k. After all if you hit the head, it's going to hurt. With vehicles it could either be ignored (there's no head on a vehicle), or add an extra dice to vehicle penetration (except for TP round) to represent hitting an exposed fuel line or something.

This was sort of my thinking; the auto-wound represents him aiming accurately enough to hit a part of the body that couldn't help being seriously wounded by any hit at all. I think someone earlier asked what would happen if you got the luck 6 when using a Hellfire round. Well, I don't see why you'd be disappointed. You used that round specifically because you wanted to make sure that model was wounded, and by-god you wounded it! Sure, in hindsight you didn't need to use the hellfire round, but in the end you got what you wanted, and without the 17-ish percent chance of failure. Sounds like a win to me.

 

For vehicles, why not a simple fix? If he rolls a 6 to-hit, the round auto-wounds and counts as AP1? It's then in fact the same as rending, using the older to-hit version, and the AP1 will make it slightly better against vehicles, although not overwhelmingly so. Sound good?

 

And hey, did everybody forget something. Shouldn't Daemon hunters have Preffered (sp) Enemy: Daemon? Since they kinda fight them all the time, wouldn't they be used to fighting them???

This is worth considering. All else aside, one has to admit, it just plain makes sense! So let's go back to our three questions? Is it in the fluff? Absolutely. Is it minimalistic, in the terms I spelled out? I think so, in that it doesn't change the structure or gameplay of the army. Lastly, is it overpowered? This seems to be where most of the criticism has come from, and so is the point we need to address.

 

How could we make this more balanced? Well, for one, we have Daemonic Infestation. Is that enough? Under the old rules, it was more than enough for the Knight's benefits against daemons. Of course, we have (in this project) been increasing our power against daemons. However, Chaos Daemons is far more daemons, and much better quality daemons, than existed at the time of our original codex. So we have to ask, does everything balance out, or are we left, all things considered, too good against daemons?

 

Honestly, I'm leaning towards the former. That is, I think (tentatively) that everything will be balanced if we add in this rule. But I'm not sure. I'd like to hear arguments, not just opinions, referring to relevant rules and changes. And if you think it would unbalance us, perhaps instead of discarding the idea, we might think of alternative ways of re-balancing ourselves against daemons specifically, in terms or daemon-specific rules, and not mere point-hikes.

 

 

After some thoughts I am going to retract certain points of my previous statement. First Make two dreadnaught entries:Close combat (multimelta, assault cannon, close combat weapon) And hellfire(everything else). Hellfire dreads should be an 0-1 choice. However, close combat dreads should be allowed to have as many as you can fit into a list. Keep the prices the same add the option to take an additional close combat weapon and maybe the Ironclad's armor values. The close combat dreads can't have weapons with a range greater then twenty four and will be no problem for an opponent to destroy. It also makes the use of a close combat dreadnaught possible and would very fluffily help GK deal with any armor. Be honest now, how many of you would want to field the CC dreads over the hellfire?

As Tyrak has pointed out, GKs use very few dreadnoughts. I see no justification for allowing us to take more of them, and no particular reason to limit how many of which type a player may take.

 

my thoughts on NFW

This is, quite frankly, way too powerful. Giving half our army C'tan phase blades, and the other half dreadaxes, would just make us far too good. Once you start looking around at how many units rely on invulnerable saves, and how much those units typically pay for such saves, and how few weapons in the game ignore them, and how only the C'tan phase blade ignores both those and armour saves, and you get an appreciation of how powerful such a change to our codex would really be.

 

I've given us Null Zone, and allowed every Justicar, BC, GM, and inquisitor to take it. For power balance purposes, I'm afraid that's going to have to do.

[ripath]

This is, quite frankly, way too powerful. Giving half our army C'tan phase blades, and the other half dreadaxes, would just make us far too good. Once you start looking around at how many units rely on invulnerable saves, and how much those units typically pay for such saves, and how few weapons in the game ignore them, and how only the C'tan phase blade ignores both those and armour saves, and you get an appreciation of how powerful such a change to our codex would really be.

 

Can't we just have one project at once? I've had to explain this to two different project leaders already. B) Okay lets take it from the top.

 

Imperial guard: the only thing that won't be getting a save that it used to would be a model with a refractor field.

Overall effect: Negligible

 

Tyranids: Zoanthropes now do not get their save in hth.

Effect: Negligible

 

Space marines: Chaplain, Terminators, and storm shields

Effect: Negligible

 

Eldar: Farseers and seer council no longer get Invuln save

effect:Minor

 

Chaos daemons:Practically noo saves in hand to hand

Effect: Major Daemonic infestation needed to balance

 

Chaos Space marines: Terminators lose Invuln save

Effect: Negligible

 

Tau: They might have an invuln save from something but if your in hand to hand they are already dead.

Effect: Negligible

 

Orks: Custum force field no longer works

Effect:Negligible

 

Dark eldar: Archons are the only thing that I can think of with one. and you want to stay out of cambat with it.

Effect:Negligible

 

Necron:Nightbringer, Deciever, and Pariahs

Effect:negligible/minor

 

 

Where do you see every unit of an army losing its save because of this? Daemons and only daemons! And before you go off all cocky about over balancing things remember what the NFW does: Only justicar and higher ranking have it as a power weapon. The majority of the army is the normal grey knights who won't be ignoring even ork or gaurdsmen saves let alone space marine's power armor.

 

Now think of every unit not on that list, thats every unit that doesn't have an invulnerable save. Power weapons from every army ignore every save they will have in hand to hand combat. Every power weapon will ignore every armor save in hth from any army. Even the tau's power weapon will. I'm going to guess and say 99% of saves are armor.

 

If a normal Grey Knights NFW ignores a daemons save just like a grey knight terminators then there isn't a problem. In fact it means that taking terminators who hit at the same strength and initiative is a waste of points.

 

Moving on how many units posses both an invuln save and an armor save? Terminators and some eldar. Now how will being able to ignore all saves in hth with GKT which already ignore 99% of all opponents saves in hand to hand be even close to over powered? Yes it looks fantastic on paper but its not much more then we already have against non daemonic armies. which means that giving daemons more benefits will easily make it so that we aren't paying for it when we don't use it.

 

TL:DR Daemons are the only ones against whom GKPA will be able to use this against.

If I have to explain this to another group of people I swear I'll paint my grey knights ultramarine blue.

 

As Tyrak has pointed out, GKs use very few dreadnoughts. I see no justification for allowing us to take more of them, and no particular reason to limit how many of which type a player may take.

I meant for them to be still counted as a heavy support choice which wouldn't change the number of dreadnaughts any player could take. If I haven't said it already I'm partially dislexic, also I'm and industrial major not an english major. As for the load out I think that more CC options should become available( more armor and another DCCW) as for why: they can kill any tank with str 10, and up close they are able to be deployed into the thick of the fighting where they fight the best.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

And hey, did everybody forget something. Shouldn't Daemon hunters have Preffered (sp) Enemy: Daemon? Since they kinda fight them all the time, wouldn't they be used to fighting them???

This is worth considering. All else aside, one has to admit, it just plain makes sense! So let's go back to our three questions? Is it in the fluff? Absolutely. Is it minimalistic, in the terms I spelled out? I think so, in that it doesn't change the structure or gameplay of the army. Lastly, is it overpowered? This seems to be where most of the criticism has come from, and so is the point we need to address.

 

How could we make this more balanced? Well, for one, we have Daemonic Infestation. Is that enough? Under the old rules, it was more than enough for the Knight's benefits against daemons. Of course, we have (in this project) been increasing our power against daemons. However, Chaos Daemons is far more daemons, and much better quality daemons, than existed at the time of our original codex. So we have to ask, does everything balance out, or are we left, all things considered, too good against daemons?

 

Honestly, I'm leaning towards the former. That is, I think (tentatively) that everything will be balanced if we add in this rule. But I'm not sure. I'd like to hear arguments, not just opinions, referring to relevant rules and changes. And if you think it would unbalance us, perhaps instead of discarding the idea, we might think of alternative ways of re-balancing ourselves against daemons specifically, in terms or daemon-specific rules, and not mere point-hikes.

 

I'll try to lay out my argument against Preferred Enemy: Daemons.

 

Firstly, I'm starting from the assumption that if you want something, you pay points for it, either as part of your base cost or as an optional upgrade. My argument will be built on this foundation, as to me it seems to follow the well-established GW points system.

 

If we get Preferred Enemy: Daemons, we will have to pay points for it. There are two ways of doing this:

 

As part of the Grey Knights' base cost - we end up paying additional points for an ability that only works against Daemonic armies. Against all other armies we will be unfairly handicapped and at a disadvantage. Considering the already high price tag of Grey Knight units, charging us even more for (in most cases) nothing doesn't seem to work to me.

 

As an optional upgrade - why on earth would Grey Knights, the premier daemonhunters of the Imperium, have being good at their job as an optional upgrade?

 

Another option would be to give Grey Knights Preferred Enemy: Everyone. The downside to this is that we may well be puttin all our eggs in one basket. Can we really afford to tie up so many points in a single Grey Knight, given the rapidly-increasing number of AP 3 weapons out there?

 

Whilst I'm not in favour of Preferred Enemy at all, if we were to give Grey Knights something similar we should make it work in a similar manner to The Aegis, or The Shrouding. They are abilities stemming from the Grey Knights' training to combat Daemons, they are effective against all enemies. Whatever happens, we should not be forced to fork out for shiny new abilities that don't work 90-95% of the time.

[Prathios]

As Tyrak has pointed out, GKs use very few dreadnoughts. I see no justification for allowing us to take more of them, and no particular reason to limit how many of which type a player may take.

 

This is correct, more than 3 dreads in an engagement would be very strange. However as he said below this isn't what he meant. Dreadnoughts are extremely powerful GK that fell in battle but were to important and worthy to allow to die. This means that these guys should be the cream of the crop before death, and though physically frail they are now in walking tanks.

 

So first lets apply your three rules to this. A) is it fluffy, absolutely yes. Dreadnoughts are the best of the best and count as infantry for half their abilities. The Nought itself is built around the body of the fallen Knight and as such the most distant piece of it is a few feet from his body. Dreadnoughts can get the Aegis ability currently which means they are still (rightfully so) psychicly powerful. They have no physical body and so it stands to reason they would still continue to develop their minds. The emperor has continued to use his psychic powers for 10,000 years after being slain I think a Dreadnought can manage a lesser feat. So not only is it fluffy to confer shrouding its unfluffy not to.

 

:tu: is it minimalistic? Conference of a rule from one infantry unit to another... yes it is a very minimal change.

 

C) is it overpowered? No, its not. Dreadnoughts have 2 long range tank busting weapons to trade fire with tanks with... and what kinds of units do they trade shots with? Tau Hammerheads - Fail. Predator Annihilators - Fail. Land Raiders - Fail. Exorcists - Fail. Leman Russ - Fail. They are outmatched by their counterparts in other armies in every way since it is our only non transport AT option. To allow us to shoot enemies with a single las shot and a missle once per turn with the "potential" not to get shot back is not OP. Considering all the other teams sit back and shoot have higher armor and more potent weapons. I think it should raise the cost of our unit but I think its something we should consider seriously. Its our only option, it should be a good one. And this rule doesn't help against melta weapons and such, just the long range duels.

 

This got me thinking, that Dreads might even be able to choose a psychic power since they clearly are still psykers... but that may be going too far. :)

[FunkyEntropy]

My point about the Hellfire round is a minor nitpick. I just want to avoid players feel like they're getting punished (ie - "wasting" a special round). Again, minor nitpick. Not a big deal.

 

I have two hangups about the new Vindicare special rule:

 

1) It must be called Headshot! no matter what other changes we make to it down the road. It's simply too cool not to. That's my one major demand.

 

2) General wording change: it might be easier to just say the shot automatically wounds and becomes AP1. No need to mention models with wounds or an armor value, because models with wounds don't care about an AP2 shot becoming AP1, and vehicles don't care about rolls to wound.

 

----------

 

I have to say that I adamantly oppose anything that would increase the costs of the standard GK, or of any other unit in the Codex. Most of our stuff costs too much already, no need to exacerbate the problem.

 

So no NFWs ignoring invulnerable saves. Want to absolutely rip through some daemons? Take some psycannons and psy-bolts. Want to do it via melee? Anoint your NFWs and go to town.

 

We've got enough toys to rip through daemons as it is.