Fixing Daemonhunters

[Aidoneus]

Wow. Okay, too many comments to respond to each individually. I want to thank you all for all your interest and suggestions! I've made a list of all the subjects that have been brought up, and I'll respond to each point. First though, I want to point out one thing:

I want to point out that Aidoneous's original stated goal was minor tweaks to the existing codex -- with the notable exception of new Fast Attack units. Unsurprisingly, the discussion immediately turned into yet another GK wish-list/rules development topic. (We have had a large number of these in the past several months, and, IMHO, don't really need another one.)

Number 6 is absolutely right. We all need to remember that my goals here are limited. I'm only tweaking the existing rules to make the codex playable. The only new rules/units I'm willing to consider are fast attack units, and that's because, having none at the moment, those additions are necessary to making the codex playable. Beyond that though, we're going to leave the codex generally the way it is now.

 

Okay, serious time done. Let's get right back into the fun of the nitty-gritty details! <_<

 

1) Bikes and Jump Packs:

Clearly, this is pressing on a very large number of people's minds. I would actually like to hear more comments about my other changes, although we can certainly keep discussing this too. Right off the bat, I want to point out that a quarter of you like both options, a quarter only like bikes, a quarter only like jump packs, and a quarter hate them both. There is no consensus, so nothing is going to be dropped right away. You need to EXPLAIN YOUR OPINIONS, because otherwise I have no reason to agree or disagree with you. I'm not saying whether they're going to be kept or dropped; I'm just saying that you need to give me more info than "well, in my mind bikes are out."

 

I will say this about bikers: I'm right there with you wanting a sleeker look. That doesn't necessarily mean jetbike though. I'm going to say right now, we are NOT adding jetbikes. Fluff says we simply can't get them, and I'm sticking by that. I was thinking, instead of a chopper (like regular spacies have), we could use a more sporty build, like this.

 

Actually, I found the one I want. This is exactly what, in my mind, Grey Knights would ride. Check it out!

 

2) Re-Teleporting: This includes both a warp spider mechanic and a swooping hawk mechanic. Simply put, what fluff exists to support such an idea? Just because it sounds cool doesn't mean it gets to be in the codex. Bikes and jump packs are equipment easily available to all chapters, and so obviously grey knights could get them if they wanted. Re-teleporting though only exists in xenos lists (and gate of infinity, but we don't want to just copy C:SM, now do we?), and even then is pretty rare. Basically, I'd only be willing to discuss this idea further if you can give me a convincing example of fluff support: otherwise, we should drop this idea and concentrate on more realistic ideas.

 

3) Orbital Strikes: One person somewhere (sorry, forgot who) recommended we make these better. Whoever you are, can you explain why? Does anyone else share this opinion? Keep in mind: we're not going to make them better just because we all want stronger options in our codex. We need to demonstrate why the current version isn't good enough to be a viable option within our codex, and decently competitive against other armies.

 

4) Increase WS: We already have WS5, which is higher than average. Why should we have +2 WS compared to basic marines? I mean, fluff-wise. Simply saying, "I want a better assault army" isn't good enough. Also, "best of the best" does not translate into "can beat any CC specialist in close combat."

 

5) Justicar Buffs: First off, I've heard two different people suggest a second wound for the justicar. Why? Unless you can give me a really good reason, and I mean a really good reason, he's going to follow the standard set by every MEQ sergeant everywhere, and stay at 1W.

 

Psychic powers: This seems far more in line with fluff, and I think it sounds promising. I asked earlier if we could just allow Justicars to purchase psychic powers (since they're already psykers anyway). Someone recently suggested giving them "squad buff" powers like warlocks. My suggestion is more minimalistic, which I consider a plus, but they both have their merits. Which version do you like, or would you pick something else?

 

6) Special Characters: Number 6 has made me reconsider this, and I think we should stop this line of thinking. This is more of a sweeping change than I am comfortable with. A perfectly good project for another time, but not right now.

 

7) Eternal Warrior: There are a couple special characters in the space marine and chaos marine codices that have this rule, but no regular characters. Captains, Masters, Chaplains, Librarians, Lord, and Sorcerers can all be killed by power fists and force weapons. We're no different. Grand Masters are NOT getting eternal warrior.

 

8) Furious Charge: Also not going to happen. Some sort of combat boost, that would work offensively and defensively, might be considered. Not FC though.

 

One problem we face is being an elitist army, when the current rules heavily favor hordes in close combat. Something to combat this might be good, just for balance purposes. Perhaps two options I can think of

 

a) If the grey knights are outnumbered 2:1, they gain +1 attack each. If they are outnumbered 3:1, they gain +2 attacks, and so on.

-something like this has been suggested, and it would solve the stated problem. But does it match fluff? What, specifically, is causing them to get all these bonus attacks?

b} Grey Knights never have to take saves due to being fearless and losing close combat.

-I like this version better, as it emphasizes are resolve and willingness to fight to the last. what do you think?

 

9)Heroic Intervention: And this nicely caps off the list of rules that we are not going to add. Grey Knights are not an assault army, they are a balanced army. Vanguard vets drop from the sky, and so can see their targets as they come down. Teleportation is highly shocking, even for veterans, and it takes a bit to find your bearings. So I have a problem with it both in terms of rules and fluff.

 

I think that covers it all. Please respond to my questions, and above all, back up what you say! As always, thanks for commenting, and keep the ideas flowing.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Bikes and jump packs are equipment easily available to all chapters, and so obviously grey knights could get them if they wanted. Re-teleporting though only exists in xenos lists (and gate of infinity, but we don't want to just copy C:SM, now do we?),

 

Hold on. You're saying that it's okay to copy the Space Marines in copy stuff that we've never had, but it's not OK to copy stuff that can fit our fluff without needing to retcon anything? If we can get bikes & jetpacks, which we've not had before, why can't we get improved teleportation, which is already present in the fluff. I'm not particularly a fan of GK Jump Packs or GK Bikes, but I do want some consistency here. Why can we change our fluff, but not expand on existing fluff?

[Gentlemanloser]

2) Re-Teleporting

 

What Fluff? From where? The Ben Counter Novels or older GW articles? In addition to Xenos and Gate of Infinity, the Rune Priests of the 13th company also have Gate.

 

The Deathwatch have access to Xenos things like Mole Transports and funky Grav Chutes. The GK are supposed to be at the forefront of Teleportation usage. As all marines can allready Teleport into Battle (providing they use Terminator Armour), then shouldn't we, fluff wise, be better?

 

Letting anyone with the Grey Knights Special Rule DS into battle is a start.

 

3) Orbital Strikes

 

Make ours at least equal to, if not better, than the standard Spacie OS. Not take a FoC slot for one. Maybe be an optional upgrade for an Inqusitor.

 

4) Increase WS

 

Sure all GK have WS5. But our HQs should be 6 at the very leasy. Like normal Spacies. And our Dreads should be BS5 and Venerable. There's just not enough of the (by the fluff) for them to be anything but....

 

Psychic powers

 

Maybe a mixture. Like the GKT Squad based Holocaust.

 

6) Special Characters

 

At the very least, our Specials sohuld have the point restrictions removed, and a Statline comparable to the new Spacies. Like a Toughness 6 Chaplain! /bleh

 

And Stern should really be an Eternal Warrior, instead of (or maybe in addition to) his funky reroll.

 

7) Eternal Warrior

 

Then we need a Special with it. Old Spacies could by the AMantle for normal HQs. We don't even get that. Sure, you can run a new Spacy list without an ET backed Character, but they get the option to use 2 if they wish.

 

8) Furious Charge

 

Agreed. But there's not much left. Unles you want to make something new, which isn't really minimalistic. CA doesn't work. The only other options are ignore Terrain (so no need for Frags) and Hit and Run.

 

a) If the grey knights are outnumbered 2:1, they gain +1 attack each. If they are outnumbered 3:1, they gain +2 attacks, and so on.

-something like this has been suggested, and it would solve the stated problem. But does it match fluff? What, specifically, is causing them to get all these bonus attacks?

b} Grey Knights never have to take saves due to being fearless and losing close combat.

-I like this version better, as it emphasizes are resolve and willingness to fight to the last. what do you think?

 

a) is a bit unweildy, and adding in something totally new. Make GK Stubborn (and immune to Pinning). Fearless is really a liability these days.

 

9)Heroic Intervention

 

We ned something to show our spcialisation in Teleportation, and the shocking lack of Transports. HI would be a way of showing how much more used to Teleportation we are, to every other SM.

 

And with our WS5, and S6 NFW, we're much stronger in CC then we are shooting with our SB. Our SB are designed to let us shoot then assault (And help us in Assault with True Grit). We really are more assaulty orientated than shooting, or even balanced.

[Shunch]

3) Orbital Strikes

 

Make ours at least equal to, if not better, than the standard Spacie OS. Not take a FoC slot for one. Maybe be an optional upgrade for an Inqusitor.

Why should they be? The only thing that's really known about the Grey Knight fleet is that it is extensively modified to incorporate greater transport capacity and more landing bays. If anything, this would indicate that that the chapter's orbital capabilities would be weaker than a normal Chapter, who rely on more heavily armed strike cruisers to bombard drop zones.

 

I also think that the orbital strike taking up a FOC slot is a trade-off, not a disadvantage. Because the ability is attached to the army, and not a 'mortal' individual, there is no way to have it taken away from you.

[Skyhawk]

Very nicely pointed out, Aidoneus.

 

@ Bikes - The Dodge Tomahawk is cute and given proper 40k orientation and ornamenting might even make it.

Another point though - A unit with WS5, S6, T5 and A2 would be the new king of GK lists. We might witness a severe reduction of our, otherwise numerous, bulwark of troops just to fit that lancer squad in.

That might not be too good.

 

@ Fearless - The cancellation of return attacks while being outnumbered would quite powerfull and would save many of our brothers from harm.

[Gentlemanloser]

Why should they be?

 

Becuase we had them first? As a points costed FoC slot, rather than a freebie on a HQ.

 

The only thing that's really known about the Grey Knight fleet is that it is extensively modified to incorporate greater transport capacity and more landing bays. If anything, this would indicate that that the chapter's orbital capabilities would be weaker than a normal Chapter, who rely on more heavily armed strike cruisers to bombard drop zones.

 

And Inquisitors?

 

I also think that the orbital strike taking up a FOC slot is a trade-off, not a disadvantage. Because the ability is attached to the army, and not a 'mortal' individual, there is no way to have it taken away from you.

 

I'd rather have the freebie, at no additional points, without taking up an important Dreadnought/Land Raider slot. To me, that's no trade off...

[Grand Master Tyrak]

a) is a bit unweildy, and adding in something totally new. Make GK Stubborn (and immune to Pinning). Fearless is really a liability these days.

 

I think it should stay. Grey Knights are a finesse army, we need to be picking our fights. With lots of anti-infantry firepower available as standard, we should be able to whittle down larger squads before getting into hand-to-hand. Plus, can you imagine a Grey Knight running? These are Daemonic incursions they're facing, if you don't get the job done you'll be fighting an unending wave of reinforcements.

[Gentlemanloser]

It's not running in fear, it's a strategic withdraw from a CC they are losing. :(

 

As it is, they blindly throw thier lives away in CC when caught by overwhelming odds.

 

Rather than withdrawing and continuing to whittle down thier thier SB.

[Skyhawk]

It's not running in fear, it's a strategic withdraw from a CC they are losing. :(

 

As it is, they blindly throw thier lives away in CC when caught by overwhelming odds.

 

Rather than withdrawing and continuing to whittle down thier thier SB.

 

It's not the 40k way.

Here you either prevail or are not worthy to live another second.

 

Your view stems from the fact that you are not a religious zealot. They are, and will not falter no matter what tactics you conjure up.

 

Go play marines :P

[Gentlemanloser]

Religious Zealots or not, the Creme de la creme of the Emperoros finest Marines, are not tactical idiots. ;)

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Gentlemanloser Posted Today, 10:08 AM

Religious Zealots or not, the Creme de la creme of the Emperoros finest Marines, are not tactical idiots. :)

 

We know that. Which is why, despite the idiocy it seems at first, it works. Grey Knights are trained to take on impossible odds and win. It's the tactics of their commanders that win it for them (ie the player). Charging headlong into everyone isn't always going to work. Making GKs Fearless keeps with the fluff, but puts the emphasis on the player to control his tactics well. As a finesse army, the Grey Knights themselves should not lend themselves to easy use, but a good tactician will be justly rewarded.

 

Religious Zealotry is what keeps them in the fight. Tactics is about which fights to choose. The former can only be dealt with in the unit Special Rules. The latter can be left to the player.

[Dzudzilla]

We know that. Which is why, despite the idiocy it seems at first, it works. Grey Knights are trained to take on impossible odds and win. It's the tactics of their commanders that win it for them (ie the player). Charging headlong into everyone isn't always going to work. Making GKs Fearless keeps with the fluff, but puts the emphasis on the player to control his tactics well. As a finesse army, the Grey Knights themselves should not lend themselves to easy use, but a good tactician will be justly rewarded.

 

Religious Zealotry is what keeps them in the fight. Tactics is about which fights to choose. The former can only be dealt with in the unit Special Rules. The latter can be left to the player.

 

 

Coldn't agree more, not to mention the fact that to keep them in the fight once they ran away we would have to come up with an " And they shall know no fear" equivalent which in my mind would put us even closer to SM than bikes or jump packs...It's on thing to use similar/same equipment and a completely different matter to actually use the same rules that are supposed to be unique to SM. I don't mind fluff justification for rules that are similar to some Xenos but Grey Marines is something that imho should be avoided at all costs...

[Gentlemanloser]

Couldn't agree less. :)

 

PAGK get charged by a large squad of 'Letters, lose by x, then have to suffer x additonal wounds on the y remaining Marines becuase "They're trained to take on impossible odds and win".

 

That's not winning. No rbeing trained to fight impossible odd.

 

Stubborn woul dbe just that. Ignoring the massive negative effect of being outnumber (well out wounded) in CC. Now that's being trained to face impossible odds and win.

 

But I'll drop this line now. It's getting off topic. I made my sugesstion for the minimal tweak, and will leave it at that. ;)

 

Edit; Missed this.

 

we would have to come up with an " And they shall know no fear" equivalent

 

Heh. They're space marines, and only the strongest RAw adherant wouldn't allow Grey Knights to have ATSKNF. It's not listed in the codex, as Fearless used to make it redundant.

 

But I would see no problem with giving GK ATSKNF. There's no reaosn they shouldn't have it.

[Dzudzilla]

I see your point, but what would you do when a squad actually failed a LD test...the odds are against it but it can, and inevitably will happen...and the squad is under 50 percent...Would watching them run away from the board feel Grey Knight-ish? There would be no way to counter that from happening apart from giving them a rule that emulates what SM do already...I think the only to way to do it acceptably is to come up with a completely new rule that makes the Grey Knights ignore the negative repercussions from losing the cc and being fearless...

 

 

*edit cause i missed that as well: Ok, that is where our opinions differ fundamentally...so let's agree to disagree and leave it at that :)

btw, how about giving them Iron Will...

[Aidoneus]

Hold on. You're saying that it's okay to copy the Space Marines in copy stuff that we've never had, but it's not OK to copy stuff that can fit our fluff without needing to retcon anything? If we can get bikes & jetpacks, which we've not had before, why can't we get improved teleportation, which is already present in the fluff. I'm not particularly a fan of GK Jump Packs or GK Bikes, but I do want some consistency here. Why can we change our fluff, but not expand on existing fluff?

Let me put it this way: Grey Knight fluff is that we use teleportation to get to the battlefield, rather than other means like drop pods of landing ships. What Grey Knight fluff does not include is using teleportation to get around the battlefield. It's a matter of 'port in, do your thing, 'port out. Using teleportation in a warp spider-esque way is outside any established fluff, and will not be added to this codex unless someone can prove me wrong on that point (i.e. point me to specific fluff telling about how GKs use teleportation that way). Otherwise, we're leaving teleportation exactly as I have it written, as a way for them to enter the battle.

 

Bikes and Jump packs are just equipment, like power armour, termy armour, storm bolters, dreadnoughts, land raiders, etc... all of which we use. Saying that adding bikers or jump packers would make us like spacies is like saying that using power armour or dreadnoughts makes us like spacies. It's just equipment that's available to all space marine chapters, of which we are one (albeit a very unique one). The difference is that, while we're on the bikes or jump packs, we still have every single special rule and piece of unique equipment that makes us undeniably different from smurfs. And unless someone can come up with a decent counterargument to that (not just "but it doesn't feel right," or "but we've never had bikers before"), it's going to stay as it is. Of course I'd be more than willing to consider a well-thought-out argument, but with so many contradictory opinions, I can't just bow to a mere expression of preference.

 

 

2) Re-Teleporting

As all marines can allready Teleport into Battle (providing they use Terminator Armour), then shouldn't we, fluff wise, be better?

 

Letting anyone with the Grey Knights Special Rule DS into battle is a start.

IS that not enough? Fluff says we use teleportation more, so I gave it to everyone and kept other transports out. Logic says we should be better at teleporting, since we use it so much, so I made terminators more accurate, given that they're the real veterans, and made teleport homers cheaper so they're worth taking. Is anything else really necessary?

 

3) Orbital Strikes

Make ours at least equal to, if not better, than the standard Spacie OS. Not take a FoC slot for one. Maybe be an optional upgrade for an Inqusitor.

Unless I'm mistaken, ours is actually better than the spacie one. The Lance Strike has the same profile, but is more than a one-time-use, and doesn't require the inquisitor to not move. And most people agree that the melta-torpedo is actually better. So while ours is a bit more expensive, it's also more useful. Really, the FO slot is the only downside. I could see using the Orbital Strike as an upgrade to an Inquisitor or Inquisitor Lord, thus freeing up a HS slot. What do people think of that?

 

4) Increase WS

Sure all GK have WS5. But our HQs should be 6 at the very leasy. Like normal Spacies. And our Dreads should be BS5 and Venerable. There's just not enough of the (by the fluff) for them to be anything but....

Our HQs are WS6 right now, matching both space marine and chaos characters. And anyone who thinks our HQ should be better in close combat than 10,000 year-old chaos warlords is maybe exaggerating our abilities.

 

Come to think of it, under my changes right now a basic GM costs exactly as much as a basic captain in termy armour with storm bolter and power weapon, and is in all ways better. I'm thinking of bumping him up to 150pts.

 

The dreadnought thing is a possibility, but I don't want to start going overboard with changes again. Could we maybe just give our dreadnoughts a venerable upgrade option? +50pts gives 'em +1BS and the venerable rule?

 

Psychic powers

Maybe a mixture. Like the GKT Squad based Holocaust.

Interesting. Maybe just let the squad as a whole purchase any GK psychic power (GKTs too), with the Justicar/BC as the focus? Seems like a simple addition, with precedent, that would go a long way towards representing our psychic abilities. Any objections?

 

6) Special Characters

At the very least, our Specials sohuld have the point restrictions removed, and a Statline comparable to the new Spacies. Like a Toughness 6 Chaplain! /bleh

 

And Stern should really be an Eternal Warrior, instead of (or maybe in addition to) his funky reroll.

I completely forgot about our existing special characters. Give me a day or two, and I'll post rules for those, and then we can discuss them more after that.

 

@ Bikes - The Dodge Tomahawk is cute and given proper 40k orientation and ornamenting might even make it.

:thanks: I've got to admit, I never would have thought of the tomahawk as "cute." Long as you like it though, I suppose that works.

 

Another point though - A unit with WS5, S6, T5 and A2 would be the new king of GK lists. We might witness a severe reduction of our, otherwise numerous, bulwark of troops just to fit that lancer squad in.

That might not be too good.

The concern is legitimate, but you should consider two things: a) those models cost 15pts/model more than even our already-expensive Troops, and b} they aren't scoring. It's pretty much just like regular bikes in a spacie list; yeah, they're better, but that doesn't mean people don't still need basic Tac squads.

 

@ Fearless - The cancellation of return attacks while being outnumbered would quite powerfull and would save many of our brothers from harm.

Exactly my thought. This lets us keep our fearlessness, without worry about the primary downside of such in 5th edition. I'm going to go add this in right now.

[Prathios]

I'm glad someone else thought my idea of giving a bonus while being outnumbered was a good idea. I thought it was nice and fluffy and fit in very well with the way our army plays. If were always going to be outnumbered we might as well be good at it. Plus if your whole army is psychic they should be really good at melee fur ball combat since they don't need to see you to block your attack.

 

A note on teleporting. Our TP tech isn't better cause we use it so much, its better cause its the best TP tech the imperium has. I believe it says as much in the codex that the =I= and GK use the finest TP tech there is.

 

I don't think bikes fit cause you can't teleport them down, or at least I've never heard of that being done. Although if anyone could do it, it would be the GK's. And if bikes can deep strike I think Dreadnoughts should be able to as well. My main argument against bikes is that it simply doesn't fit the fluff. Although if a bike GK had a cape that would be awesome. Imagine scarlet red capes on a bike squad, look like the knights of old... hmm... maybe I could be talked into it.

 

There is no excuse in the current rules for a regular GK squad not being able to do a holocaust. All GK's are psychers and the GK novels are pretty clear that holocaust is available to a PAGK squad.

 

Good thread my friend keep up the stellar work.

[Gentlemanloser]

I made terminators more accurate, given that they're the real veterans, and made teleport homers cheaper so they're worth taking. Is anything else really necessary?

 

Not particularily. Any more is probably getting into wishlist territory. ;)

 

But I can see the draw to having a 12" Move from on Table teleportation over a 12" move (with +1T) from a Bike.

 

I could see using the Orbital Strike as an upgrade to an Inquisitor or Inquisitor Lord, thus freeing up a HS slot. What do people think of that?

 

It's what I would be in favour of. :jaw: A costed upgrade (not the free abilitiy of the Spacies), that Inquisitors/Lords could purchase.

 

Our HQs are WS6 right now, matching both space marine and chaos characters. And anyone who thinks our HQ should be better in close combat than 10,000 year-old chaos warlords is maybe exaggerating our abilities.

 

The HQ Brother Captain is only WS5, I4, 1 Wound. Both Generic Spacy HQ commanders are WS6,I5, 3 Wounds. I feel our Generic HQs need to both be bought to this level.

 

Why should the newest Marine chapter to become a successor have a Captian (not even a Company Master) that is better skilled, faster and more durable than the Greys Knights?

 

The dreadnought thing is a possibility, but I don't want to start going overboard with changes again. Could we maybe just give our dreadnoughts a venerable upgrade option? +50pts gives 'em +1BS and the venerable rule?

 

Sounds perfect. :jaw:

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Although if a bike GK had a cape that would be awesome. Imagine scarlet red capes on a bike squad, look like the knights of old... hmm... maybe I could be talked into it.

 

The Knights of old had no rear wheels to get their capes caught in. Not exactly the most dignified way to enter battle, is it? ;)

 

Interesting. Maybe just let the squad as a whole purchase any GK psychic power (GKTs too), with the Justicar/BC as the focus? Seems like a simple addition, with precedent, that would go a long way towards representing our psychic abilities. Any objections?

 

Link. We've had a look at that idea, maybe some things you can use?

[Aidoneus]

I'm glad someone else thought my idea of giving a bonus while being outnumbered was a good idea. I thought it was nice and fluffy and fit in very well with the way our army plays. If were always going to be outnumbered we might as well be good at it. Plus if your whole army is psychic they should be really good at melee fur ball combat since they don't need to see you to block your attack.

I agree with your fluff. I like the idea of GKs being able to sense incoming attacks from surrounding foes. But does giving them more offensive attacks really represent that? What about the option I added to post number 2, under Fearless? Basically, they cannot be caught and pulled down by sheer weight of numbers, specifically because they can sense and parry those attacks.

 

A note on teleporting. Our TP tech isn't better cause we use it so much, its better cause its the best TP tech the imperium has. I believe it says as much in the codex that the =I= and GK use the finest TP tech there is.

I skimmed through our codex just now, and I saw no reference to this at all. Can you cite your source perhaps? Because as far as I can tell, we have the same tech everyone else has, we just have more teleporters and use them more often.

 

I don't think bikes fit cause you can't teleport them down, or at least I've never heard of that being done. Although if anyone could do it, it would be the GK's. And if bikes can deep strike I think Dreadnoughts should be able to as well. My main argument against bikes is that it simply doesn't fit the fluff. Although if a bike GK had a cape that would be awesome. Imagine scarlet red capes on a bike squad, look like the knights of old... hmm... maybe I could be talked into it.

I'm not sure that bikers teleporting and dreadnoughts teleporting are the same thing really. To me, a biker is more along the lines of a suit of termy armour, size-wise. Dreadnoughts are much larger. Rules-wise, I'm not keen on the concept of teleporting vehicles, which (aside from some oddball, outdated rules) simply doesn't happen in 40k.

 

I like the cape idea, although as Tyrak pointed out we'd need to make sure it wasn't long enough to catch in the rear wheel. Of course, that's a modeling question, and not really within the scope of what we need to settle on here. Suffice to say, a squad of Grey Knight Lancers could be a creative modeler's dream come true.

[Prathios]

The Knights of old had no rear wheels to get their capes caught in. Not exactly the most dignified way to enter battle, is it? :jaw:

 

I laughed pretty good at this. I got this mental image of a Grey Knight riding over a hill into battle with epic music, then getting suddenly jerked off his bike by his cape getting caught in the back wheel.

 

I still think capes are a good idea. Heck, Stern already has one right? And he looks awesome. And remember they could use their psychic powers to keep the cape from doing that ;)

[Dzudzilla]

Actually , no professional warriors throughout history were stupid enough to wear capes into battle itself...you might point out historical paintings but most of them were romantisations of the battles themselves made on commision...Notice how they omit things like guts hanging out of dying horses etc...War was never pretty and people who wanted to survive and knew what they were doing made pretty sure to leave things like rings, braceletes and capes at home cause any of those things could get you killed...I would leave real-world things out of it - and by that i mean let´s stick whatever we want on them...more skulls and purity seals than anyone in else in whole of 40k etc...

 

*More to the point of the discussion itself i decided to leave my input out of from now on and just watch what you guys come up with...;)

[Grand Master Iapetus]

Sorry for the delay in reply, switching ISPs... :D

 

I can see this is going to be the area of most contention. Not sure what's going to happen yet. Although you do bring up a good point, in that perhaps the inquisitorial forces need to be represented in FA too. I think I heard in the new IG codex Valkyries will be FA, so that might be a good option. I'm going to hold off on mimicking the IG codex until it comes out though. In the meantime, would you care to explain why you're anti-bike and anti-jump pack? And if (anticipating a likely response here) you're going to say it makes us too much like smurfs, can you further explain why that is in light of all the wargear and special rule differences that will still be there?

 

Love the idea on the valkyries and I agree you should wait on the codex. THAT would be fabulous...

 

On bikes, jump packs, speeders, librarians, chaplains...2 main points for me. Yes, to a lesser degree I don't want to be "normal" marines and I do think there is some true validity in that argument. My big beef with bikes and stuff is more fluff related. As much as I enjoyed the GK series of books, Counter is all over the page when it comes to being in line with codex rules, which is OK given that it is a very imaginitive series of fiction books. So when we talk fluff - are we talking codex and game fluff, or book fluff? It's all valid fluff, but isn't there a rule there somewhere in an FAQ that Codex trumps Black Library? :P

 

It would serve us better to make first make teleportation more feasable for GKs (fleet, heroic intervention) as it is mentioned in the fluff on practically every other page...and we really aren't GREAT at using it even though it is a core principal for the GK armies. We really should be the best at it based on what is in the fluff...

 

This is especially true for the PAGK troops who IMO are overpriced by just a bit (FWIW - you can leave everything alone on the standard termies IMO - they are right in line points wise). I think a lot of people may disagree with me on this, but I think 25 points is still too much even with all their special abilities if you can't be guaranteed to be able to benefit from each of the special abilities on a consistent basis.

 

If you are relying on shrouding, you are too far away to benefit from true grit and at the extreme edge of your standard weapon range. If you get up close to take advantage of enhanced CC abilities, you lose shrouding after about 30". We are balanced in shooting and assault, but to effectively employ both consistently in every game is not borne out by the points cost for the PAGK.

 

Please understand, I don't want to see them turned into biker nobs troop squads, you are absolutely going down the right track with minor tweaks and it is tough to get the balance right without making them an uber unit. Anyway - better get back to answering the questions...

 

 

I think Dreads need to stay as HS in our codex. It just seems right; vehicles are either transports or HS. This seems to be as much a codex balance issue as anything. The venerable idea is interesting though. Are you suggesting something like letting one dreadnought be upgraded to venerable, giving it a re-roll on the damage table and perhaps access to a special rule (like tank-hunter or furious charge)?

 

Maybe just give them all venerable to justify our points cost?

 

 

Couple points here:

1) Why should the GM get eternal warrior? Spacie characters don't have it, nor do chaos characters. Why us?

2) Why make BCs and Justicars more resilient? For the record, the BC can buy bionics, so that's an option. But why do you think these changes ought to be made?

 

1) Eternal warrior or T5 or better has been given to at least one character in all the new codicies. It should be given (like WS6) to maintain the balance.

2) In the case of the justicar, he quite simply doesn't justify his points without a larger tweak of some sort IMO. For a BC Hero choice, again - it takes up an HQ slot, so it should get something in return, and it stands in line with the new series of codices. For a BC elites choice, I could go ether way...

 

 

* What about a special round for the Psycannon? S6 + 2d6, one shot.

haha... didn't even see this edit until I was halfway through my reply. Okay, these responses are right off the top of my head.

 

Why do you recommend this round? Would it be for hunting Greater, as opposed to lesser, daemons? As most GDs are only Toughness 5 or 6, is this necessary?

 

No - not for daemons or MCs as much as I like the option of adding a little more anti-tank without resorting to adding standard marine stuff like lascannons or melta-guns into the GK fluff.

 

 

I'm not sure where "greatest warriors" translates into "the wild ferocity of their assaults" (from the BBB description of FC). Also, GKs are nice because they are equally good receiving a charge instead of charging, giving them a bit more tactical flexibility. I'd be willing to brainstorm about special rules within close combat, but I don't think Furious Charge is the best mechanic.

 

Start on page 2 of the codex, top of the second column. I will try to find up some more, but it is pretty consistent that they are to Marines what the Navy Seals are to "standard" Special Forces. Whether or not furious charge is the right answer, probably not after reading the replies regarding not rushing headlong into combat. I think standard +1I could better represent the fact of our enhanced skills and nacent psychic powers, while also keeping the fluff of being outnumbered (low model count)

 

And thanks to number6 for letting the discussion go on...

[Aidoneus]

11) Special Characters

 

Page 57

 

Inquisitor Lord Torquemada Coteaz:

Remove points restriction

 

Destroyer of Daemons: All Daemons within 6 inches of Torquemada Coteaz lose the Fearless special rule and suffer -1 to their Leadership value. Note that this may be combined with other negative leadership modifiers.

 

 

Page 59

 

Brother-Captain Stern:

Remove points restriction

WS 6

Icon of the Just

Eternal Warrior

150pts

[Aidoneus]

Hey all. I've been going back through all the posts so far in this thread and writing up a list of all the loose ends that still need to be decided on. There are a lot, but about half of them I think we've come to a conclusion, and I just need to update the original post. So it shouldn't be too bad. I just want to thank you all for being so helpful. These rules are progressing beautifully, and nearly everyone here has provided some now insight. I also wanted to thank you for keeping things civil. Perhaps it's reflected in your chosen army; you guys are the best of the best! :P Now on to the fun stuff.

 

These are sort of in two groups: things that have been settled, and things that haven't yet been adequately addressed. We'll start with what's taken care of first.

 

 

Special Characters:

Don't know if you all saw this, but I added a post updating our special characters. It should be one or two posts above this one, and it's linked-to in the original post. Go have a look and tell me what you think.

 

Teleport Homer:

Going to have to take out my correction, and let this remain 10pts. I took a look at the new spacie codex, and theirs are 15pts! So I guess our 10pt version, which use to seem like a burden, is now a blessing.

 

Justicar Psychic Powers:

This sounds like a good idea. He's already a psyker, why not let him buy psychic powers? It'll be just him, not the squad, which amounts to the same thing except that perils isn't so scary.

 

Orbital Strikes:

... are becoming wargear! The exact wording is going to be a little tricky, but this will be a one-per-army piece of wargear, and so will not take up a force-org slot. Just off the top of my head, here's my first attempt at the wargear entry:

 

Orbital Strike: 1 per army, inquisitor or inquisitor lord only, may be melta-torpedo for Xpts, lance strike for Ypts, or Psi-Bomb for Zpts (as Codex: Daemonhunters)

 

During his shooting phase, the inquisitor may forgo shooting and instead call for the orbital strike. Select one piece of terrain on the board that the inquisitor has line of sight to. The strike is keyed to that piece of terrain. The Orbital Strike counts as an ordnance barrage, following the profile and special rules of the type selected. It lands every turn starting when the inquisitor calls for it, and must be centered in the terrain to which it is keyed. If the inquisitor forgoes his shooting, and has line of sight to the template, it scatters 2D6" minus his BS, otherwise it scatters the full 2D6. In any subsequent shooting phase, the inquisitor may forgo his shooting and call for the strikes to stop. When he does, the strike still lands on that turn, but will not land in any future turns.

 

It's a little verbose, but it can be split up into multiple paragraphs for aesthetic purposes. Sound good?

 

Venerable Dreadnoughts:

Dreadnoughts will be given an option to upgrade to venerable status. This will cost +50pts, will give it BS 5 and the venerable special rule.

 

Fluff Base:

This has come up a couple times. Personally, I've never read a 40k novel in my life. I really don't consider them strictly canon. More sort of official fanfics. Anyway, the only fluff I am interested in representing is that found in GW rulebooks and codices.

 

Edit: This came up today, and it bugged me. I'm making Daemonhosts' powers happen at the beginning of their movement phase, so that it still works if they came on from reserves that turn.

 

 

Okay, now I have some things I think we should talk more about.

 

Daemonic Infestation:

I don't like the rule I have written, and I know at least one other person has said they don't like it either. We need to come up with a workable version, that mitigates some of our advantages against daemons, without going too far the other way and making us actually bad at fighting daemons.

 

Strike Team:

Shunch has commented that he doesn't quite feel right about this rule. Shunch, have you thought it over any more since I gave my account of it? Does anyone else have concerns, or do most people think it works?

 

Special Weapons Points:

Do our special weapons need to cost less? No obviously, we all WANT them to cost less, but try to be objective here. Does our balance and competitiveness depend on those points being reduced, or are those weapons already viable options as they are? I would be willing to knock off 5pts from either weapon for PAGKs only (termies don't lose their NFWs, and don't rely on True Grit, so do not suffer from taking upgrades like PAGK do). I'm probably more likely to just reduce the psycannon cost, and leave incinerators where they are, but I'd like to hear everyone's perspective on this.

 

Allies:

We really haven't addressed this at all. Should the allies rules change? Remember, small tweaks here. One thing I considered was to let radical inquisitors be allied into Lost and the Damned lists, or perhaps inducted units from that list. I definitely want to at least update the options for IG and spacies, and would consider small tweaks there as well, if consensus dictates.

 

 

And lastly, I have a nifty new idea, that I think a lot of you will enjoy. Please be objective here, and make sure this is a good and appropriate addition.

 

Teleport Assault:

At the beginning of your first turn, you must choose half of your deep-striking squads (rounding up) to make a 'Teleport Assault' (note, despite the title, this includes dreadnoughts in drop pods). Units makes a teleport assault arrive on the player's first turn. The arrival of the remaining units is rolled for as normal.

 

My friend (TJWyrm) gave me this idea, so I want to make sure he gets credit. Basically, since Spacies have their nifty Drop Pod Assault rule, we should be able to do the same thing, only with teleporting. We don't have the Dark Angels codex, so I don't know how this compares to the Deathwing Assault. Can someone tell me?

 

More generally, what do people think? Remember, my two goals are a) represent our predilection/aptitude for teleporting, and b} give us a boost equivalent to other all-deep-strike armies, like drop pods, deathwing, and chaos daemons. Does this rule accomplish those two goals?

[jakehunter52]

3) Orbital Strikes: One person somewhere (sorry, forgot who) recommended we make these better. Whoever you are, can you explain why? Does anyone else share this opinion? Keep in mind: we're not going to make them better just because we all want stronger options in our codex. We need to demonstrate why the current version isn't good enough to be a viable option within our codex, and decently competitive against other armies.

 

We should keep it as a standard heavy support option, remove the 0-1 restriction. Unlike other armies, we should be able to call down a multitude of strikes (represented by the ship(s) in orbit) and with more variety. Pay basic points to get basic lance strike and then can pay points to have other options than this , such as melta torpedos or, my own addition, carpet bombs (str 6, ap 4, no cover). This upgrade system would represent the load out of the ship, being prepared for battle, etc.

 

7) Eternal Warrior: There are a couple special characters in the space marine and chaos marine codices that have this rule, but no regular characters. Captains, Masters, Chaplains, Librarians, Lord, and Sorcerers can all be killed by power fists and force weapons. We're no different. Grand Masters are NOT getting eternal warrior.

 

Captains, Masters, Chaplains, Librarians, Lord, and Sorcerers don't fight Greater Daemons on a regular basis, much less slay the same one multiple times while still a brother captain. Grand Masters get eternal warrior rule.

 

a) If the grey knights are outnumbered 2:1, they gain +1 attack each. If they are outnumbered 3:1, they gain +2 attacks, and so on.

-something like this has been suggested, and it would solve the stated problem. But does it match fluff? What, specifically, is causing them to get all these bonus attacks?

b} Grey Knights never have to take saves due to being fearless and losing close combat.

-I like this version better, as it emphasizes are resolve and willingness to fight to the last. what do you think?

 

I like both. Additional attacks are there because it is harder to miss :P But there are martial art techniques specifically for dealing with large groups of attackers, not hard to believe that Grey Knights could do the same and with their combat experience learn how to fight more aggressively in these circumstances but in the process lose finesse so strike at WS 4 or 3. Second point is a given. Also, all GK are Ld 10. 666 trials proves that they are rock solid.

 

Something I would like to add is the issue with shrouding. I feel that in it's current state it is a medocre rule with little benefit and is a slowdown to the game. I can't tell how many times my opponent goes:

 

"Ok, I'm shooting at your Grey Knights."

"Roll for shrouding."

"OH......well, um, forgot about that. I don't know then."

*wait 30 seconds for him to remake his decision*

"Ok, I'm still going to shoot."

*rolls*

"I got a 2, a 5 and a 3. So that's..."

*wait another 20 seconds cause wargamers are bad a math*

"30 inches."

*Measures. 18 inches away*

"You're fine."

 

And this is how it always goes. It's slow, easy to forget and in a lot of cases, totally irrelevant because he is way under the average but you still have to find out because the range of shrouding is huge. Rather, I would suggest Grey Knights get a permanent 5+ cover save that can be improved on (so 2+ if there are intervening troops or are in cover, etc.) It flows a lot easier, isn't that too huge of advantage outright (most of the time, we'll be using our armour save) but rather forces you to play smart to utilize it, makes sense (so what if you can't see the GK, flames will still reach him) and will be actually worth the points we pay for it.

 

 

PS- Sorry, jumped on the summary cause I didn't want to read the hundred posts before it and I am about to head to bed. I'll check it tomorrow and comment on other people's stuff. Night.