Fixing Daemonhunters

[Aidoneus]

PS- Sorry, jumped on the summary cause I didn't want to read the hundred posts before it and I am about to head to bed. I'll check it tomorrow and comment on other people's stuff. Night.

Actually, that post happened a while ago. The post right before yours was the most recent summary, so you might want to respond to that when you get a chance. I'll leave it at that for now, because I don't want to lead conversation astray by replying to your points right now. I'd rather focus on the issue raised in my last post. However, I'm not ignoring you, and I'll try to remember to respond to these points in the future.

[jakehunter52]

Ninja'd me. Ok, one last one before beddy bye.

 

Orbital Strikes:

... are becoming wargear! The exact wording is going to be a little tricky, but this will be a one-per-army piece of wargear, and so will not take up a force-org slot. Just off the top of my head, here's my first attempt at the wargear entry:

 

Orbital Strike: 1 per army, inquisitor or inquisitor lord only, may be melta-torpedo for Xpts, lance strike for Ypts, or Psi-Bomb for Zpts (as Codex: Daemonhunters)

 

During his shooting phase, the inquisitor may forgo shooting and instead call for the orbital strike. Select one piece of terrain on the board that the inquisitor has line of sight to. The strike is keyed to that piece of terrain. The Orbital Strike counts as an ordnance barrage, following the profile and special rules of the type selected. It lands every turn starting when the inquisitor calls for it, and must be centered in the terrain to which it is keyed. If the inquisitor forgoes his shooting, and has line of sight to the template, it scatters 2D6" minus his BS, otherwise it scatters the full 2D6. In any subsequent shooting phase, the inquisitor may forgo his shooting and call for the strikes to stop. When he does, the strike still lands on that turn, but will not land in any future turns.

 

See post above. But yes, having to have an inquisitor do the actual firing sounds kinda good.

 

 

Venerable Dreadnoughts:

Dreadnoughts will be given an option to upgrade to venerable status. This will cost +50pts, will give it BS 5 and the venerable special rule.

 

And WS 5. They are currently 4 now.

 

Daemonic Infestation:

I don't like the rule I have written, and I know at least one other person has said they don't like it either. We need to come up with a workable version, that mitigates some of our advantages against daemons, without going too far the other way and making us actually bad at fighting daemons.

 

Get rid of it entirely. There are already daemons on the planet. 'Nuff said.

 

Special Weapons Points:

Do our special weapons need to cost less? No obviously, we all WANT them to cost less, but try to be objective here. Does our balance and competitiveness depend on those points being reduced, or are those weapons already viable options as they are? I would be willing to knock off 5pts from either weapon for PAGKs only (termies don't lose their NFWs, and don't rely on True Grit, so do not suffer from taking upgrades like PAGK do). I'm probably more likely to just reduce the psycannon cost, and leave incinerators where they are, but I'd like to hear everyone's perspective on this.

 

YES! So, I am paying the cost of a WHOLE Grey Knight so I can replace my storm bolter AND my NFW AND True Grit ability so I can get (in this case)....a heavy bolter. That can be shot on the move...at half range. Oh, and it ignores invo saves....which is meh cause it only applies to daemons (and this is said in context that this is a game, you can make fluffy rules AND have it be practical across the board). Lower the point cost on both and imo, let him keep his NFW. That is a significant part of what a Grey Knight is and he should leave home without it.

 

Allies:

We really haven't addressed this at all. Should the allies rules change? Remember, small tweaks here. One thing I considered was to let radical inquisitors be allied into Lost and the Damned lists, or perhaps inducted units from that list. I definitely want to at least update the options for IG and spacies, and would consider small tweaks there as well, if consensus dictates.

 

Update unit names (there is no land speeder squadron I believe, or something to that effect), especially when Guard come out (no more Armoured Fist). Include new options and remove restrictions (or take them out if it is going to be that abusive.)

[FunkyEntropy]

I've always thought bikes are a little hokey for a universe technologically advanced enough to have hot plasma death flying every which way. Personally, I'd much rather see Grey Knights on some sort of mechanical steed. Fits the "knight" part to a T, and could potentially look pretty frikkin' sweet. Plus, since they wouldn't have the (5)T that comes with bikes it would help keep costs down.

That, to me, seems hokey. There also isn't much evidence of such mechanical creations. I think the bike fits well enough.

 

 

Sorry for the late reply.

 

I'm just enamored with the image I've got dancing in my head of a Grey Knight astride a mighty cyberhoss.

 

There's a number of critters used by the 40k Imperium that have had cybernetic enchancements. For example, cybermastifs with the Arbites, that special eagle thingy that comes with our very own Special Character Inquisitor (don't have the codex on me at the moment), as well as cherubs and servoskulls.

 

Point being, I don't think that there's a single critter out there that the Imperium hasn't considered tinkering with at some point.

 

That would give us all the excuse we need to come up with a model that, done right, could look very, very cool.

 

---------

 

Regarding Orbital Strikes:

 

Another possibility, aside from making it a piece of wargear, is to move it up to Fast Attack, then maybe change the rules for when it comes in to being purely at the discretion of the DH player.

 

Other ideas for making Strikes more competitive for the Heavy Slot (since it seems like practically every competitive tournament GK list uses exclusively LRs) that I've come up with:

 

- "Target my location!" - at the end of any assault phase, after all wounds are allocated but before any models are moved, the DH player may place the OS template over the squad leader of any of his units that participated in the combat. The DH player may use this ability even if said squad leader (Justicar, Inq, etc.) was killed in that assault phase. Note that this particular strike does not scatter. Resolve hits as normal for all units under the template.

 

Heroic last stands where just when the opponent thinks he's won - WHAM! - he gets a nice OS pie plate of doom. I don't know how useful this'd be from a practical standpoint, but from a conceptual perspective I absolutely love this.

 

- Something akin to what you've already suggested: ie, as long as it's in LOS of a predetermined unit (Inq, GKGM, etc) you can have the OS target a different piece of terrain. Maybe make it available via the purchase of a piece of wargear.

 

- Remove the 0~1 limitation. This option needs heavy scrutiny. A lot of the power of the OS comes from area denial, so locking out multiple areas could be potentially devastating, even overpowering. Perhaps have an ever escalating cost per each additional OS taken? For example, 1st: +0pts, 2nd: +10pts, 3rd: +20pts.

 

The point for this last one is to make the player really weigh the value of the Orbital Strike vs having more Land Raiders. Three Land Raiders would certainly be a force to be reckoned with (albeit an expensive one), but so would three Melta Torpedoes dropping on an opponents head. On the one hand, the LRs are significantly more consistent, and have a pretty decent psychological impact on the opponent; having three OSs would deny your opponent a pretty significant chunk of the board - they don't even have to kill anything to be effective in this regard.

 

[edit: all the stuff about Orbital Strikes]

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Daemonic Infestation:

I don't like the rule I have written, and I know at least one other person has said they don't like it either. We need to come up with a workable version, that mitigates some of our advantages against daemons, without going too far the other way and making us actually bad at fighting daemons.

Get rid of it entirely. There are already daemons on the planet. 'Nuff said.

 

You realise that means paying through the nose for our special abilities, right? Even though most of them will only work against Daemonic armies? Do you want to be paying more for your Grey Knights so you can get abilities which you can't use against most of your opponents?

[Dzudzilla]

Teleport Assault:

At the beginning of your first turn, you must choose half of your deep-striking squads (rounding up) to make a 'Teleport Assault' (note, despite the title, this includes dreadnoughts in drop pods). Units makes a teleport assault arrive on the player's first turn. The arrival of the remaining units is rolled for as normal.

 

My friend (TJWyrm) gave me this idea, so I want to make sure he gets credit. Basically, since Spacies have their nifty Drop Pod Assault rule, we should be able to do the same thing, only with teleporting. We don't have the Dark Angels codex, so I don't know how this compares to the Deathwing Assault. Can someone tell me?

 

More generally, what do people think? Remember, my two goals are a) represent our predilection/aptitude for teleporting, and b} give us a boost equivalent to other all-deep-strike armies, like drop pods, deathwing, and chaos daemons. Does this rule accomplish those two goals?

 

Ok, that is almost the same as the Daemonic assault rule that forces all Daemons to enter play via deepstrike except with the wording you chose its limited to deepstriking GKs...which is not necesseraily a bad thing. I honestly don't know what to think, ti kinda appeals to me in a way, but at the same time...Without taking the fluff into account i'm much more comfortable with taking rules from any codices except for SM , so if it were to come it i'd accept it, but i guess i'd rather not have to.

[jakehunter52]

Get rid of it entirely. There are already daemons on the planet. 'Nuff said.

 

You realise that means paying through the nose for our special abilities, right? Even though most of them will only work against Daemonic armies? Do you want to be paying more for your Grey Knights so you can get abilities which you can't use against most of your opponents?

 

^_^ So you realize that this rule hurts us...right? It was supposed to counter the special abilities we had against daemons so they didn't need to increase the cost of our GKs, so if this rule is dropped...we'd be getting those abilities for free. Not to say that it really matters anymore, part of Rites of Exorcism doesn't matter and the other is iffy on the ruling. Aegis doesn't help against the daemonic since they don't have psyker powers anymore. Banishment does nothing. That and if Daemonic Infestation were remade in any form, I think that it would be much too powerful considering how the daemonic units have changed, the cover save rules, the fact that daemons and CSM are separate and that back in 4th it wasn't as bad since it would give you more opportunities for victory points but would now only apply 1/3 of the time. So, just get rid of it. I doubt that the lack of this rule is going to be game changing.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

So you realize that this rule hurts us...right? It was supposed to counter the special abilities we had against daemons so they didn't need to increase the cost of our GKs, so if this rule is dropped...we'd be getting those abilities for free. Not to say that it really matters anymore, part of Rites of Exorcism doesn't matter and the other is iffy on the ruling. Aegis doesn't help against the daemonic since they don't have psyker powers anymore. Banishment does nothing.

 

:lol: I was sort of expecting us to fix our abilities too, not just do away with the disadvantages and not fixing the advantages they were supposed to balance.

[Aidoneus]

So you realize that this rule hurts us...right? It was supposed to counter the special abilities we had against daemons so they didn't need to increase the cost of our GKs, so if this rule is dropped...we'd be getting those abilities for free. Not to say that it really matters anymore, part of Rites of Exorcism doesn't matter and the other is iffy on the ruling. Aegis doesn't help against the daemonic since they don't have psyker powers anymore. Banishment does nothing.

^_^ I was sort of expecting us to fix our abilities too, not just do away with the disadvantages and not fixing the advantages they were supposed to balance.

Uh, yeah. Maybe you should go back and read some of the older posts. At the very least, read my actual proposals. Because I definitely fixed those things.

 

Tyrak is right, we need something to balance our abilities against daemons. While we're supposed to be really good at fighting daemons, that shouldn't mean we auto-win against them. I like the idea of Daemonic Infestation, as it essentially makes it like we're fighting a larger army, thus balancing our ability to kill it more easily. The problem is, with Scoring units being what they are now, the old version is WAY too powerful. Preferably, we want something to represent that we're facing a larger or more powerful daemon force, without giving them objective-taking advantages. The problem is, I haven't thought of a good way to do it yet.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Preferably, we want something to represent that we're facing a larger or more powerful daemon force, without giving them objective-taking advantages. The problem is, I haven't thought of a good way to do it yet.

 

Just keep the old one, but add the sentence "Recycled units brought back on in this manner never count as Scoring Units, regardless of whether the unit they are replacing originally counted as Scoring."

[RolandTHTG]

I've always thought bikes are a little hokey for a universe technologically advanced enough to have hot plasma death flying every which way. Personally, I'd much rather see Grey Knights on some sort of mechanical steed. Fits the "knight" part to a T, and could potentially look pretty frikkin' sweet. Plus, since they wouldn't have the (5)T that comes with bikes it would help keep costs down.

That, to me, seems hokey. There also isn't much evidence of such mechanical creations. I think the bike fits well enough.

 

 

Sorry for the late reply.

 

I'm just enamored with the image I've got dancing in my head of a Grey Knight astride a mighty cyberhoss.

 

There's a number of critters used by the 40k Imperium that have had cybernetic enchancements. For example, cybermastifs with the Arbites, that special eagle thingy that comes with our very own Special Character Inquisitor (don't have the codex on me at the moment), as well as cherubs and servoskulls.

 

Point being, I don't think that there's a single critter out there that the Imperium hasn't considered tinkering with at some point.

 

That would give us all the excuse we need to come up with a model that, done right, could look very, very cool.

 

 

Well, the problem with mentioning cybernetic horses is that it has been done before. By Imperial Guard, specifically the Death Korps of Kreig. Death Riders. Scroll down slightly over halfway, where there is the picture of the painted rider from the side. That is one Ugly looking horse. And it is nowhere near big enough to hold a GK.

Plus, I the only other unit in 40k mounted on animals is Nobs on Cyboars. And do you really want your GK to be compared to orks?

 

---------

Regarding Orbital Strikes:

 

Another possibility, aside from making it a piece of wargear, is to move it up to Fast Attack, then maybe change the rules for when it comes in to being purely at the discretion of the DH player.

 

Other ideas for making Strikes more competitive for the Heavy Slot (since it seems like practically every competitive tournament GK list uses exclusively LRs) that I've come up with:

 

- "Target my location!" - at the end of any assault phase, after all wounds are allocated but before any models are moved, the DH player may place the OS template over the squad leader of any of his units that participated in the combat. The DH player may use this ability even if said squad leader (Justicar, Inq, etc.) was killed in that assault phase. Note that this particular strike does not scatter. Resolve hits as normal for all units under the template.

 

Heroic last stands where just when the opponent thinks he's won - WHAM! - he gets a nice OS pie plate of doom. I don't know how useful this'd be from a practical standpoint, but from a conceptual perspective I absolutely love this.

 

Once again, this is an Imperial Guard ability (from Apocalypse: Reload ). Also you are Grey Knights, The Emperor's Finest, Humanity's Best Defense against the Deamon. You are supposed to go into those situations and WIN! Guard are the ones expected to call down fire upon the enemy's overrunning their position, GK are too valuable to wast in this manner.

 

Besides, the current method Aidoneus has (look in the armory page) is a unique and good method to allow access to them without taking up a HS slot.

[Lungboy]

Fantastic work so far. I'd definitely make all GK immune to No Retreat! wounds to represent their stoic and unwavering refusal to give ground. I'd also let Hurricane Bolters use psy-bolt rounds.

[FunkyEntropy]

 

Sorry for the late reply.

 

I'm just enamored with the image I've got dancing in my head of a Grey Knight astride a mighty cyberhoss.

 

There's a number of critters used by the 40k Imperium that have had cybernetic enchancements. For example, cybermastifs with the Arbites, that special eagle thingy that comes with our very own Special Character Inquisitor (don't have the codex on me at the moment), as well as cherubs and servoskulls.

 

Point being, I don't think that there's a single critter out there that the Imperium hasn't considered tinkering with at some point.

 

That would give us all the excuse we need to come up with a model that, done right, could look very, very cool.

 

Well, the problem with mentioning cybernetic horses is that it has been done before. By Imperial Guard, specifically the Death Korps of Kreig. Death Riders. Scroll down slightly over halfway, where there is the picture of the painted rider from the side. That is one Ugly looking horse. And it is nowhere near big enough to hold a GK.

Plus, I the only other unit in 40k mounted on animals is Nobs on Cyboars. And do you really want your GK to be compared to orks?

 

Ahh, that's what I get for being out of the loop on these sorts of things. While I wasn't aware that the Death Korps had their own custom cavalry, to nitpick they're hardly mechanical - the horses are just fitted with the same rebreathers or whatever it is the Korps uses. My "vision" has the horse almost completely mechanical.

 

Something like this or this but more futuristic and with significantly more armored sheets (without being bulky). Something almost completely metal and very streamlined. I only wish I that was more graphically inclined, because then I could just draw you what I meant instead of using inadequate approximations.

 

You make an excellent point about the cyboars. I think this problem could be avoided if the models look sleek and metalic enough.

 

---------

 

Regarding Orbital Strikes:

 

Another possibility, aside from making it a piece of wargear, is to move it up to Fast Attack, then maybe change the rules for when it comes in to being purely at the discretion of the DH player.

 

Other ideas for making Strikes more competitive for the Heavy Slot (since it seems like practically every competitive tournament GK list uses exclusively LRs) that I've come up with:

 

- "Target my location!" - at the end of any assault phase, after all wounds are allocated but before any models are moved, the DH player may place the OS template over the squad leader of any of his units that participated in the combat. The DH player may use this ability even if said squad leader (Justicar, Inq, etc.) was killed in that assault phase. Note that this particular strike does not scatter. Resolve hits as normal for all units under the template.

 

Heroic last stands where just when the opponent thinks he's won - WHAM! - he gets a nice OS pie plate of doom. I don't know how useful this'd be from a practical standpoint, but from a conceptual perspective I absolutely love this.

 

Once again, this is an Imperial Guard ability (from Apocalypse: Reload ). Also you are Grey Knights, The Emperor's Finest, Humanity's Best Defense against the Deamon. You are supposed to go into those situations and WIN! Guard are the ones expected to call down fire upon the enemy's overrunning their position, GK are too valuable to wast in this manner.

 

Besides, the current method Aidoneus has (look in the armory page) is a unique and good method to allow access to them without taking up a HS slot.

 

I haven't played any apocalypse, so take that into consideration. I'm very much a casual player who simply loves this army and wants to see it ranked as one of the top tier armies instead of near the bottom.

 

That being said, maybe I should elaborate on my conception of the idea. The GK aren't calling down the strike because their position is being overrun, they're calling it down because they're down to the last man and they absolutely must have whatever it is they're tangling with dead. It's a bit of a semantic whitewash, I know, but think of it this way: the guard are doing it because they're losing, the GK are doing it because they must succeed at all costs.

 

Anyway, ideas are fickle things. As a creative (musician) person myself, I know that you can never really tell when inspiration is going to strike. But for me, there's a lot of times where someone will be saying something and I'll go, "Oh, hey! That gives me an idea." There's really no telling when the imaginative process will get a kick start, so when I throw out these ideas I do so in the hopes that one of the bright people in this forum will see it and go, "hmm. Not bad. But what if we do this?"

 

I like many of Aidoneus' ideas, that's why I'm tossing this stuff around, because maybe (hopefully) it'll trigger even more good ideas.

[jakehunter52]

:tu: I was sort of expecting us to fix our abilities too, not just do away with the disadvantages and not fixing the advantages they were supposed to balance.

 

....touche

 

Tyrak is right, we need something to balance our abilities against daemons. While we're supposed to be really good at fighting daemons, that shouldn't mean we auto-win against them...The problem is, with Scoring units being what they are now, the old version is WAY too powerful. Preferably, we want something to represent that we're facing a larger or more powerful daemon force, without giving them objective-taking advantages. The problem is, I haven't thought of a good way to do it yet.

 

I apologize for my hastiness and went back to read the suggestions. And you speak truly, it is hard to balance something that can be so irregular (What happens in the GK's 6th or 7th turn? How do you account for last minute deep striking claiming objectives, something no one else can do? Should something be done to prevent tailoring which units come in?) However, what I find most significant lies in the game play mechanics rather than points balancing or background reciprocation. Take for example the rule change you suggested "...at the end of every Grey Knight turn, the opponent may choose any one unit of daemons taken as Troops that has been already killed in the battle, and put that unit back into reserves." You impose on the opposing player to be accountable for rules not in their own book and what is worse, only in a specific case. This will lead to people forgetting and losing and subsequently having a bitter taste about something forced upon them so things could be "fair". Why not just place the burden of responsibility on the original player as with everything else?

 

I do understand that your example is not a perfected model and please don't think that I am targeting you directly. I am targeting the idea, an idea that does not work and that...while we are cleaning up, we should take out the trash.

 

PS- I don't like to be a downer....I like to be a helper. So, in true hypocritical fashion to what I said above, here is what I suggest: Allow the Daemon player a reroll for initial deployment (to see which half of their army comes in) and give them a +1 to reserve rolls after that (represents the daemons intense desire to get rid of Grey Knights as opposed to other armies). Oh, and please fix True Grit. Applies to terminators and is simply allow storm bolters to be used as a CC weapon.

[Dzudzilla]

....touche

 

Tyrak is right, we need something to balance our abilities against daemons. While we're supposed to be really good at fighting daemons, that shouldn't mean we auto-win against them...The problem is, with Scoring units being what they are now, the old version is WAY too powerful. Preferably, we want something to represent that we're facing a larger or more powerful daemon force, without giving them objective-taking advantages. The problem is, I haven't thought of a good way to do it yet.

 

I apologize for my hastiness and went back to read the suggestions. And you speak truly, it is hard to balance something that can be so irregular (What happens in the GK's 6th or 7th turn? How do you account for last minute deep striking claiming objectives, something no one else can do? Should something be done to prevent tailoring which units come in?) weapon.

 

 

Well, you don't need to do anything since all units that are still in reserves automatically come in at the beginning of 5th turn...now, obviously a mishap might happen and delay the units but i think we should be able to prevent that since GKs are the masters of 'portation...and deliberate delaying through playing to make the mishap happen is just too risky with the cost of GK units and that 6th or 7th turn might not come...

[Grand Master Tyrak]

And you speak truly, it is hard to balance something that can be so irregular (What happens in the GK's 6th or 7th turn? How do you account for last minute deep striking claiming objectives, something no one else can do? Should something be done to prevent tailoring which units come in?)

 

Ah, yes, good point. Under the older rules, they had to come on from the Opponent's board edge. Now that's changed, we'll need to state it explicitly in the Daemonic Infestation wording.

 

Take for example the rule change you suggested "...at the end of every Grey Knight turn, the opponent may choose any one unit of daemons taken as Troops that has been already killed in the battle, and put that unit back into reserves." You impose on the opposing player to be accountable for rules not in their own book and what is worse, only in a specific case. This will lead to people forgetting and losing and subsequently having a bitter taste about something forced upon them so things could be "fair". Why not just place the burden of responsibility on the original player as with everything else?

 

Frankly, if the DH player does not tell the Daemon player about the recycling rule, that is nothing less than cheating.

If a player simply forgets, a work-around I would use would be to immediately bring on the Daemon units, but allow them to Deep Strike.

[Twin .44]

Here's something that always irked me a little bit. if the Grey Knights are given the best equipment the Imperium has to offer (Nemesis force weapon, storm bolters, holy crap vessels Dorn would raise an eyebrow to) Then why don't all GK have Artificer armor? I mean I would understand in game terms they would be like mini Terminators with no INV save and would pummel just about anything, but I always thought fluff wise it would make more sense. or am I just an idiot?

 

-edit- Also what about GK charging into cover? I may have missed it throughout here, but that may be something to add to the fearless rule you have. something like "Grey Knights are not afraid of being driven down by bullets from cover. They count as having assault grenades when assaulting into cover.

[Wolf's Bane]

Here's something that always irked me a little bit. if the Grey Knights are given the best equipment the Imperium has to offer (Nemesis force weapon, storm bolters, holy crap vessels Dorn would raise an eyebrow to) Then why don't all GK have Artificer armor? I mean I would understand in game terms they would be like mini Terminators with no INV save and would pummel just about anything, but I always thought fluff wise it would make more sense. or am I just an idiot?

 

-edit- Also what about GK charging into cover? I may have missed it throughout here, but that may be something to add to the fearless rule you have. something like "Grey Knights are not afraid of being driven down by bullets from cover. They count as having assault grenades when assaulting into cover.

 

In a Fluffy way, the should all wearing Terminator Armour (the more powerful armour in the imperium). The original texts about Grey Knights told us, if I can remember well, about a chapter with 666 Terminators

 

For me, our rules should be something similar to the Deathwings ones, our troops should be Terminators, in a fluffy way, of course.

 

The introduce PACK in our codex, I suppose, to let us have some "cheap" GK troops.

 

But I'm right with you, I hope in the new codex, the may give artificer armour to GK PACKs.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Twin .44 Posted Today, 11:16 AM

Here's something that always irked me a little bit. if the Grey Knights are given the best equipment the Imperium has to offer (Nemesis force weapon, storm bolters, holy crap vessels Dorn would raise an eyebrow to) Then why don't all GK have Artificer armor?

 

Very true. To answer that question, I pose another. Why don't Marines use the Movie Marine rules?

 

Some sacrifices have to be made in order to make the game workable. Plus, in fluff terms, GK armour is already the equivalent of artificer armour due it being an Aegis suit, just without the bling. Artificer armour in the fluff doesn't actually translate to better protection - it's just more efficient.

 

Mind you, if all Grey Knights had access to 2+ saves, I would never, ever, win a game with my GK army. :P

[Twin .44]

well, I don't understand exactly why GK Terminators should be troops. sure, there's a lot of them, but the GK win through superiority, not armor or cheap crap. I was just posing that question as a "if they did it, would it make sense?" kind of thing. it is also a question i've constantly asked myself.

 

I know I'll probably get reamed out for it, but what are these "Movie Marines" you speak of? And I hear you, that makes enough sense. A GK needs to die somehow right? (wrong! did i say that?) And why wouldn't you ever win? points cost?

[Prathios]

Essentially "movie marines" are the difference between the marines in the books and the marines on the tabletop. Lets face it, if the marines on the tabletop were as amazing as they are in the fluff they would all have multiple wounds cost about 150 points and be able to take about 100 gaurdsmen in CC. In a 1500 point game a tactical squad of marines would be about all you need. That might be a slight exaggeration but its close. The idea that a space marine has 2 less wounds than some standard human models in the game blows my mind when marines have 2 hearts and an exoskeleton...

[Grand Master Tyrak]

I know I'll probably get reamed out for it, but what are these "Movie Marines" you speak of? And I hear you, that makes enough sense. A GK needs to die somehow right? (wrong! did i say that?) And why wouldn't you ever win? points cost?

 

What Prathios said. Essentially true-to-the-fluff rules. You get about 10 Marines in a 1500pt army.

 

On the 2+ saves, partly points costs (with some of the changes suggested here, it seems the pure Grey Knight army will be unlikely to exist outside of Apocalypse), but mostly because I am part of that group of players who hate taking 2+ saves, because I know full well I'll roll a disproportionate amount of ones. I'm actually better (by percentage) of passing my 5+ inv saves than I am my 2+ armour saves.

[Prathios]

I feel that. I roll terrible with concerns to ballistics skill... with my whole army hitting on 2+ and 3+ It boggles my mind that I almost always (not exaggerating) still manage to lose half my dice per round of shooting. I am a master of rolling disproportionate ones and twos. But I knew that going into this game, I've always had terrible dice luck. Not sure why. The other night I was showing my friend how an exorcist missle launcher works and I failed, get this, 9 times in a row to pen the side armor of a tau hammerhead. Granted this was theory crafting and I was just rolling dice over and over but I got like 25-30 missiles or more to do it with and I still managed to never get better than a shaken result due to glances.

 

Oh and as for movie terminators, well in the fluff a squad of five or six terminators is like an imperial guard battalion. Always frustrates me that gene-stealers kill terminators just fine on the table top when in the fluff you always see the stealers getting mowed down by the dozens on space hulks. B)

[Aidoneus]

:P ;) :to:

 

This line of discussion ends NOW. This is not a fluff discussion thread, this is not a wishlist thread, and this is not a sweeping-changed thread. I am making MINOR TWEAKS to our rules, just to bring us in line with current codices in terms of how we work, and our power level. Any more discussion outside of that will be reported. I hate to be a hard@$$ about this, but we've gotten really off-topic here, and nothing constructive is being done.

 

Now, to get back to what we should be talking about.

 

Special Weapons Points:

YES! So, I am paying the cost of a WHOLE Grey Knight so I can replace my storm bolter AND my NFW AND True Grit ability so I can get (in this case)....a heavy bolter. That can be shot on the move...at half range. Oh, and it ignores invo saves....which is meh cause it only applies to daemons (and this is said in context that this is a game, you can make fluffy rules AND have it be practical across the board). Lower the point cost on both and imo, let him keep his NFW. That is a significant part of what a Grey Knight is and he should leave home without it.

Jakehunter makes a strong case. While we are not going to be able to keep our Nemesis Force Weapons (those are big guns we're lugging around), points reductions are eminently doable. What would people say to 5pts off each?

 

Allies:

Update unit names (there is no land speeder squadron I believe, or something to that effect), especially when Guard come out (no more Armoured Fist). Include new options and remove restrictions (or take them out if it is going to be that abusive.)

Okay, I'll update those sometime. We can talk about about substantive additions, but at the very least I want them to refer only to units that actually exist. ;)

 

 

Teleport Assault:

Ok, that is almost the same as the Daemonic assault rule that forces all Daemons to enter play via deepstrike except with the wording you chose its limited to deepstriking GKs...which is not necesseraily a bad thing. I honestly don't know what to think, ti kinda appeals to me in a way, but at the same time...Without taking the fluff into account i'm much more comfortable with taking rules from any codices except for SM , so if it were to come it i'd accept it, but i guess i'd rather not have to.

TJ and I did some snooping, and what we found is that this rule is used, in almost identical versions, by Chaos Daemons, Space Marine Drop Pods, and Dark Angels Deathwing Assaults. It seems to be GW's way to make all-deep-strike armies work better, with the action starting on turn 1. Since it's the norm now, we're going to add it into our codex. I think I will make it just teleporters though, so the dreadnoughts are going to come in just a little bit later. Makes sense. If you launch pods at the same time you 'port some dudes, who's going to get there first? ;)

 

 

Preferably, we want something to represent that we're facing a larger or more powerful daemon force, without giving them objective-taking advantages. The problem is, I haven't thought of a good way to do it yet.

Just keep the old one, but add the sentence "Recycled units brought back on in this manner never count as Scoring Units, regardless of whether the unit they are replacing originally counted as Scoring."

This isn't a bad idea. All daemon Troop units killed may enter play their next turn from their own board edge. They give Kill Points, and may contest objectives, but do not count as Scoring. Sound decent?

 

 

Fantastic work so far. I'd definitely make all GK immune to No Retreat! wounds to represent their stoic and unwavering refusal to give ground. I'd also let Hurricane Bolters use psy-bolt rounds.

Hurricane Bolters with psy-bolts would be sick! Maybe allow it, but charge 20pts to put it on a crusader? After all, with 6 twin-linked bolters and possibly a pintle storm bolter, that's a LOT of AP4, inv-ignoring goodness!

 

 

Also what about GK charging into cover? I may have missed it throughout here, but that may be something to add to the fearless rule you have. something like "Grey Knights are not afraid of being driven down by bullets from cover. They count as having assault grenades when assaulting into cover.

I already gave 'em all Frags.

 

 

Also, if anyone here has not commented on my post #74 (bottom of page three), please do so. I would like to get those issues worked out.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

This isn't a bad idea. All daemon Troop units killed may enter play their next turn from their own board edge. They give Kill Points, and may contest objectives, but do not count as Scoring. Sound decent?

 

Sounds good to me. ;) Obviously it'll need rewording for a proper formal printed rule (ie rules-lawyer proof), but that can come much later.

 

Jakehunter makes a strong case. While we are not going to be able to keep our Nemesis Force Weapons (those are big guns we're lugging around), points reductions are eminently doable. What would people say to 5pts off each?

 

That sounds ok. Nowhere near enough discount for PAGKs, but it's high enough so that we don't break Purgation Squads and can keep the special weapon costs as standard across the board.

[Lungboy]

Hurricane Bolters with psy-bolts would be sick! Maybe allow it, but charge 20pts to put it on a crusader? After all, with 6 twin-linked bolters and possibly a pintle storm bolter, that's a LOT of AP4, inv-ignoring goodness!

 

When every other bolter weapon can have them it seems odd that Hurricanes can't, so a higher points cost for the Crusader to take them seems fair. Maybe make them 5 points per weapon that can use them, with each hurricane bolter counting as 3 weapons, making it 35 points for a crusader upgrade (6x TL Bolters and the storm bolter). Is that too high?