Fixing Daemonhunters

[Aidoneus]

Okay, this is just adding on to my post above, so be sure to read that one too, if you haven't already.

 

Looking at our armoury, there are actually few changes I would make in addition to what I've done already. There are some, but not many. I'll try to explain my thinking for as many as I can.

 

Null Zone: First off, and sort of beside the point, I realized Null Zone actually has no cost in the Space Marine codex. What would be an appropriate cost? My first thought is 20pts. Does that seem fair?

 

Banishment, Destroy Daemon, Sanctuary: I did what I could for Banishment by updating the rules, but I think these three powers are always going to be unpopular choices. The fact is, they only apply to very, very few armies, and so are bad choices in an all-comers list. Sanctuary has enjoyed a little popularity due to Codex: Daemons, but otherwise I don't think there's much we can do here.

 

Word of the Emperor: Similarly unsolvable, as so many foes have high leadership values. I'm hesitant to drop the cost, because at 5pts it might become a no-brainer purely for the cost, and thus discourage other more useful, but also more expensive, powers.

 

Anointed Weapon: Once again, we're seeing the theme of hopeless causes. The thing is, a Nemesis Force Weapon is better, and infinitely cheaper, than this, so no Grey Knight will take it. And our Inquisitor stink in close combat, so they won't take it either. The only solution I can think of here is to make this a weapon upgrade, much like master-crafting, so you could have an anointed NFW or anointed lightning claws. I'm not sure though.

 

Daemonhammer: This seems fine. The only thing I can think of is to remove the 1-per-army limit, not because I can see people taking a bunch of these, but because I feel it is more in keeping with newer codices to remove that restriction altogether (except for Emperor's Tarot, which really requires it).

 

Force Weapon: I already reduced it to 30pts, but at the end of the day, I think it suffers the same problems as the anointed weapon. I mean, who wants a WS4, S3 force weapon? Especially within such a lackluster CC squad?

 

Grimoire of True Names: Again, I think remove the 1 per army restriction.

 

Holy Relic: Not sure what to do here. On the one hand, it is very expensive, and seems to have limited use. On the other hand, it could be potentially quite powerful. I'm not actually sure why we don't see more of these around, especially since so many people see GK as a more assault-oriented army (myself not included). I guess I could be talked into lowering this a little, like to 25pts or so, but not much more than that.

 

Icon of the Just: Since I've given this standard to GK heros, and since the Storm Shield is almost always the more attractive option for others, I see this being a non-necessary upgrade option. I don't think I'll take it out, but I don't think I need to do anything else to it either.

 

Lightning Claws: Hopeless? Same issue as the anointed weapon and force weapon; NFW is better, especially for the cost, and Inquisitors won't want to be in CC anyway.

 

Psycannon Bolts: I think Funky Entropy hit the nail on the head when he said 10pts is too much, but 5pts too little, for this upgrade. Maybe 8pts? Or maybe just suck it up and pay the extra 2pts for it? I'm not sure we could help this really, since the difference between 8pts and 10pts really isn't much, but 5pts would definitely make it a no-brainer. What do you all think?

 

Refractor Field: Same problems as the Icon, but more so. The Storm Shield has just obliterated the usefulness of things like this. Maybe just leave it be and admit it will never be taken?

 

Sacred Incense: Remove the 1 per army restriction.

 

 

So that's everything I saw. The biggest problem I've seen is that many of these upgrades are CC-oriented upgrades for inquisitors, which just doesn't work. What that leads me to ask is, should we make CC inquisitors more attractive in their own right, thus making some of these wargear options more viable indirectly?

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Twin .44: Points cost for the Justicar, huh? Interesting. I can definitely see the argument about him being more expensive than a GKT, who seems to be significantly better (1 fewer attack when not charging, and no armoury access, being the only downsides). I think GW went a little multiple-of-25 crazy when writing the PAGK entry. Of course, the flip side of this argument is that to look at the Space Marine equivalent, the Sergeant. A Sergeant costs 15pts more than a regular spacie, and then pays an additional 15pts for a power weapon (same with Chaos, by the way). That's 30pts more than a regular member of his squad. In our case, we get the exact same benefits, for only 25pts, and that's on a WS5, S6 model to boot. So I can see both sides of the argument here. What do other people think?

 

Well, the points hike for the Justicar covers his power NFW and the fact that he is the psychic focus for the squad. Now, if we can make him do something with that psychic focus . . . Squad-based psychic powers anyone? This would work for all GK units who's squad leader has no noticeable advantage.

 

Lightning Claws: Hopeless? Same issue as the anointed weapon and force weapon; NFW is better, especially for the cost, and Inquisitors won't want to be in CC anyway.

 

This is just one entry, but I have a problem with this mentality. Just because you don't see CC DH Inquisitors very often, that does not mean they are not out there. I run one myself. Removing the option for CC Inquisitors because you think it's under-used does nothing but leave those who do use it with a bunch of useless models. Seriously, it doesn't do any harm in the codex, and it does more harm if you take these options out. Leave these options be, the same goes for all Inquisitor-CC options.

[FunkyEntropy]

Sanctuary: If we changed Sanctuary to apply to all opponents, it would be an incredibly useful (and powerful) area-denial tool.

 

Anointed Weapon: I really like the idea of making a weapon upgrade instead of a weapon in and of itself.

 

Force Weapon: Give it the same treatment as Anointed Weapon? That gives you the option of upgrading your Brother-Captains and Justicars to GM-worthy CC nastiness.

 

Lightning Claws: Make it dirt cheap in price in order to make it more attractive for non-standard IST loadouts? That's about the only place you'd ever see these anyway. Same deal with Thunderhammers and powerfists. Not worth it on the GK, not effective enough on everyone else.

 

Psycannon Bolts: I'm generally against sucking it up and taking the points hit. 2 points here and there can add up quickly and pretty soon you're able to field an extra IST or GK. What do you think of allowing the purchase of a Stormbolter at discount, say 10pts for both the gun and the bullets? This makes it a competitor with the combi-weapons, usually bought by ISTs and Acolytes.

 

Psycannons: 15 points for squads, 20 for Ind Chars. An over-glorified Heavy Bolter should not cost as much as a Lascannon.

 

I disagree with you on incinerators, however. Just because they're taken frequently doesn't mean they're not overpriced. 10/15 points (squad/Ind Char). Remember what we're giving up in exchange for them!

 

Icon of the Just/Refractor Field: Give it a significant points reduction to make it a viable alternative to the Storm Shield, which - although providing superior protection - takes up a precious one-hand weapon slot.

 

Regarding Land Speeders, they seem completely out of character with the DH army. Also, can you see Grey Knights trusting their priceless members to a flying coffin? I can't. Maybe - maybe - if it was crewed by ISTs.

[FunkyEntropy]

Twin .44: Points cost for the Justicar, huh? Interesting. I can definitely see the argument about him being more expensive than a GKT, who seems to be significantly better (1 fewer attack when not charging, and no armoury access, being the only downsides). I think GW went a little multiple-of-25 crazy when writing the PAGK entry. Of course, the flip side of this argument is that to look at the Space Marine equivalent, the Sergeant. A Sergeant costs 15pts more than a regular spacie, and then pays an additional 15pts for a power weapon (same with Chaos, by the way). That's 30pts more than a regular member of his squad. In our case, we get the exact same benefits, for only 25pts, and that's on a WS5, S6 model to boot. So I can see both sides of the argument here. What do other people think?

 

Well, the points hike for the Justicar covers his power NFW and the fact that he is the psychic focus for the squad. Now, if we can make him do something with that psychic focus . . . Squad-based psychic powers anyone? This would work for all GK units who's squad leader has no noticeable advantage.

 

I've got an idea for squad based psychic powers that's kind of wacky and out-there. Essentially, a GK squad could project an stat-enhancement aura. If I hear enough interest (eg, someone other than myself thinks it's a neat concept), I'll start my own thread, as I don't want to clutter up Aidoneus' thread with this.

[Red Lost Soldier]

While initially I was weary of yet another DH codex attempt, I like the minimalist approach. Here's a few suggestions I'd make:

 

The Vindicare Assassin:

Do you think unlimited special ammo would be too overpowering? I think it would make him much more viable, as even with BS6 he is still the same lackluster choice he is at the moment. Also he is supposed to be the best marksmen the Imperium can offer, I'd wager he'd be better than Telion, like BS7? Not much gameplay difference but just to emphasise the point. SM scouts are training in all combat areas, Telion included. Vindicares do one thing and do one thing right, shoot.

 

Chimera:

I'd add all the options from IA2 update, Autocannons etc.

 

Land Raiders:

Just to clarify, POTMS and Assault vehicle for all LR, GK and Inquisitorial alike. New (non) dedication rules too

 

Psychic powers:

Smite to replace scourging? It's simply a much better option.

 

Daemonic infestation:

I like the way you've done it, but I wouldn't have the recycled stuff scoring.

 

The big issue, CC wargear for a non CC character:

All the fancy wargear that we never take for Inquisitors has two problems. It costs as much as it does for SM heros, and Inquisitors are simply not on the same statline. Also his retinues pail in comparison. So either he the costs have to be close to IG costs, or the stat line has to change.

 

S3/T3 is the biggest issue here. If there were a way to increase the inquisitors base S to 4, things would be much easier. There is precedent here too, Coteaz is base S4 so inquisitors can reach it through whatever means.

 

So perhaps some system that you get to pick one "free" stat upgrade to specialise your inquisitor in the same way that a SM librarian picks powers from a set.

 

+1 S for combat inquisitors.

+1 BS for shooty inquisitors

+1 retinue size for resourcfull inquisitors (eg 4 warrior types)

+IST infiltrate/deep strike for sneaky inquisitors

 

Or whatever. Main thing is once inquisitors are S4 base, all those CC upgrades become more viable. Still not as potent as a SM combat character though, so I think a small points drop is still appropriate.

[Skyhawk]

+1 S for combat inquisitors.

+1 BS for shooty inquisitors

+1 retinue size for resourcfull inquisitors (eg 4 warrior types)

+IST infiltrate/deep strike for sneaky inquisitors

 

This actually sounds nice.

Our Inquisitors might become a mirror of the SM heroes. Not that I like cloning of "Papa Pedro" in every SM army I see these days but INQs are THE most individualistic bunch ever to travel the Imperium and beyond so some "traits" might be nice.

 

More CC for Inquisitors - Oh yeah! I smite thee with the heavy end of my daemonhammer ^^

As for the Stats:

 

Strength - Inquisitors in Power Armour should automatically be S4 (It's not just a tin can they're wearing)

Toughness - The major issue but I think we should leave that alone just to say that INQs are still only human.

Instead they could get some anti-Instant Death goodie.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Strength - Inquisitors in Power Armour should automatically be S4 (It's not just a tin can they're wearing)

 

No. However, the majority of SM strength comes from their oversized muscle development from the gene-seed. Inquisitors should not be as strong as SMs without precedent. In a more detailed system of stats, yes a strength upgrade for Inquisitors could be good. But in the 40k system Inquisitors should not be Str 4 as standard, or as a result of wargear. I'm fine with selecting it as your one 'free' stat upgrade, since you lose out on the three alternatives by doing so.

[Melissia]

I agree with Tyrak really. Perhaps if they pay points to represent experimental strength-enhancing technology.

[Prathios]

Yeah I will third this. Tyrak has it right on this one. I think a single free stat is the way to go. If we keep pushing for s4t4 as a base then soon enough there wont be any humans in the =I=...

[Skyhawk]

Allright then. Sounds good to me.

 

Now let's just leave it to Aidoneus to come up with a host of usefull and catchy options (if he likes the idea of course) and we're set.

[Wrath]

I just thought I'd throw a few things out there.

 

When I first read the Annointed Weapon entry I assumed it was a weapon upgrade, only to be disappointed when I took a closer look. It ought to be an upgrade, and as it stands now it is utterly pointless.

 

Why not allow Stormbolters to be taken by IST squads as special weapons?

 

Should Null Rods be changed to have a radius of effect, perhaps similar to the Space Marine pyschic hood (which now only protects people within a certain range, no?)?

 

In general, with Incinerators and Psycannons on PAGKs, since you are losing the two things that are most fundamental to how you operate I would err on the side of lower point costs for the special weapons. GKTs and Inqs should probably have a higher cost, but still less than the current price. I've never been a fan of making Purgation Squads pay more for their special weapons, but if it has to happen then maybe make the cost for a Purgation Squad be the same as for a GKT, GK Hero, and Inq (the reason Terminators should pay more is because they can use them one-handed, so don't lose out on nearly as much as the regular GKs do).

 

Psycannon bolts should be available as a squad upgrade for PAGKs and GKTs (say, 8 pts a model). To give an 8-man squad bolts would cost you 64 points, which is enough for two PAGKs and some change. Special Weapon GKs would still have to pay for the squad upgrade, even though they wouldn't benefit, no?

 

Vindicare Assassins should either wound regularly on a 3+ or have unlimited access to special ammo. Given that Hellfire rounds would lose effectiveness if the normal Wounding roll was 3+, I'm inclined toward unlimited special ammo. Another possibility would be to allow him to fire twice during any turn when he does not use any special rounds at all (either picking off two targets or getting two tries at sniping an important baddie). Though this would lessen the usefulness of Trubo-Penetrators against non-vehicles, it would increase his general usefulness.

 

Again, the above are just things that I wanted to throw out to be discussed or ignored as necessary.

[Aidoneus]

Going in sequential order of when the ideas were brought up, for lack of any better way of organizing my thoughts.

 

 

Justicar Psyker Powers: We already gave the Justicar the ability to buy one psychic power from the armoury.

 

 

Eliminating Armoury Choices: I never actually said I would eliminate any choices; my point was that I felt it wasn't worth altering them, since a mere points adjustment still wouldn't make them attractive options. Of course I'm not going to needlessly eliminate options. You needn't fear. :D Of course, by the same token, we may as well alter the points costs, as it won't really affect their power level.

 

I agree with pricing things as per the IG codex. Of course, we won't know for a little longer what those points costs are going to end up being. We can adjust those costs when the 'dex is out. This will apply to Force Weapons, Lightning Claws, etc. We can also see if the IG codex has anything like the Icon of the Just or Refractor Field, and maybe base our costs on those.

 

 

Sanctuary: Making sanctuary apply to everyone would be WAY overpowered. And honestly, as far as specifically anti-daemon powers go, this is the only one people actually take. I think it's all right as it is.

 

 

Anointed Weapon: Consensus seems to be that we should make this a weapon upgrade. Consider it done. One question though: should it be close combat weapons only, or can we anoint ranged weapons?

 

 

Psycannon Bolts: Fair enough. 8pts it is. It's not becoming a squad upgrade though, because a squad of AP4 bolters would just be silly.

 

 

Special Weapons Points: How about this, for PAGK, Purg Squads, GKT, and Armoury, respectively:

 

Psycannon: 15 / 15 / 20 / 25

Incinerator: 5 / 10 / 15 / 15

 

Too low? Or is the low cost properly offset by losing your NFW and SB? I'll say right now, they're not going any lower than this.

 

 

Vindicare: I actually like the idea of letting him use special ammo every turn. Reminds me of the special ammo allowed by Sternguard Vets. But would this perhaps be too far in the other direction, and make him too powerful? I worry about that 110pt model taking out a tank or vet sgt every turn, with the enemy not able to get close enough to kill him. Still... I dunno. I'm torn on this one. Maybe a small points hike (10pts or so) to go with the ability? Maybe give him two of each round, instead of one (so he can't use Hellfire every turn, but can use some special ammo every turn)? I think that last option is probably my favorite. What do you all think?

 

 

Imperial Armour 2: Yeah, I'm going to add in all those updates. Just haven't gotten around to it yet. While we're on the subject though, can DH storm troopers take Repressors, or is that strictly a WH thing?

 

 

Scourging: I'm not sure I want to abandon this power entirely. What if we just made it Assault 4 and AP 4? Would that make it more worthwhile?

 

 

Daemonic Infestation: Right now, this is the current language I plan to use:

 

Daemonic Infestation: Whenever an enemy unit of Daemons taken as Troops is killed, the opponent may bring it back into play during his next turn by moving it on from his table edge exactly as if it were coming in from reserves. Daemon units brought back this way do not count as Scoring units, although they may contest objectives, and if they are killed again they give the Grey Knight player another Kill Point. Players should use common sense when determining what units count as daemons.

 

Will this be satisfactory for everyone? Or do some people have problems with it?

 

 

Inquisitor Stat Upgrades: Interesting as this idea is, I feel it falls beyond the scope of this project. There is no precedent for this, nor is there any particularly compelling fluff reason (tending towards close combat does not give one super-human strength, for example). Much as this would fix a couple of our problems, I just don't feel comfortable adding it.

 

 

Storm Bolters on ISTs: Again, we're going to copy-paste the storm trooper entry from the new IG codex.

 

 

Null Rods: This a fairly powerful weapon as it is. If we go through lowering points values for power weapons and such, this might go down to around 15pts. But keep in mind, this lets a shooty inq squad ignore things like harlequins' Veil of Tears, and Hive Tyrants' and Zoanthropes' Warp Fields, while simultaneously giving unparalleled protection against all manner of offensive powers. Making that an area effect would just be too powerful.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

While we're on the subject though, can DH storm troopers take Repressors, or is that strictly a WH thing?

 

Witch Hunters only, I believe. Even if it isn't, it should be - the STC is exclusive to the Arbites and the Sororitas.

[Mani]

Wow! Thank you, Aidoneus, and everyone else who has contributed to this! With all the "I wish GK had this, that, and the other" threads going on, it is really refreshing and *helpful* to see a list of conservative changes that will make the codex *playable* and to which 95% of the community can all agree. number6 nailed it when he said that the real test is, "would I be okay with someone else playing these rules against me?" and, for me, the answer is, "yes, please!" Congratulations, and let's please send the results of this thread to GW.

 

All of the shifts to bring us in line with the standard SM equipment and costs are exactly on point. I also *love* the slight, conservative improvement to the efficacy of Shrouding. As was said earlier, the point is to keep long-range heavy weapons off of us, not to let us shoot Tau point-blank with impunity. I'm also pleased with the immunity to extra wounds for losing combat while outnumbered and fearless. I think that is exactly the sort of small, appropriate trait that could become characteristic of an army without imbalancing it. Bravo! Letting all GK units teleport in is brilliant and totally in keeping with the style of the army. Forcing half of them to come in on the first turn is an elegant safeguard against too much deep strike chaos and makes sure that the fight gets started quickly all the same. All of this is brilliant and much-needed.

 

Minor RAW point: I think in the edited first post you neglected to write that the storm shields give an invulnerable save *in close combat*, which I'm guessing you intended to keep.

 

Bikes/Jump Marines: I'm with Aidoneus on this issue, I think the Knights need a legitimate fast attack option, and bikes and jump packs are the immediately obvious choices from the SM armoury, though they don't feel quite right in the GK context. I'm very interested to hear anyone's other, better idea. As for the comment about a WS5, T5, S6, W2 Grey Knight biker being an uber-unit, I can't tell. Like Aidoneus says, maybe being pretty expensive and not a scoring unit would keep it under control. Or, maybe it would be too much. I'd have to play-test it for a while to form a clearer opinion. Let me organize my thoughts into fluff and gameplay:

 

Fluff-wise, I feel like the GK, who habitually teleport into combat, would be disinclined to use jump packs, given that I've never heard of an example of a SM both teleporting *and* using jump tech. The bikes feel like a more legitimate "get me from here to there faster" solution for Knights who want to get stuck in that little bit sooner. I also agree that bolt pistols are right out, no matter the cost. GK use storm bolters, period.

 

Game-wise, I think it would be critical to somehow reduce the shootiness of a jump-equipped PAGK to prevent them from being used as just an even more effective kite. Reducing their shooting range to 18" or 12" works nicely to keep them to an equal or decreased shooting range of 30" or 24", respectively, but saying "it's a storm bolter but it only has a range of 18"" feels a little... it's not a very elegant solution, I suppose. I'm not sure I have a better solution, so between this and my fluff objections, I'm inclined to vote "nay" on jump GKs. For the bikes, I think letting us mount psycannons on such a mobile platform would be way too much; I'm undecided on incinerators. As I said above, I think it would take some play-testing to decide if they would be too much or just enough of a fast, heavy, resilient CC unit.

 

Also: the Dodge Tomahawk! It looks perfect. Good find!

 

Does anyone have a better idea for a way to give GK a fast attack choice that's appropriate and elegant?

[Red Lost Soldier]

I wanted the Vindicare to be more powerful, but I did also have the hesitation that unlimited special ammo would be simply too powerful. 2 shots of each might be a good middle ground. Needs some playtesting.

 

Special weapon costs look good, daemonic infestation looks good. Scourging I'm still not sure on. The problem isn't Scourging itself is so bad, it's just way overpriced and weak in comparison to the other psychic powers on the market. Check out the new rumoured IG powers for example.

 

The Inquisitor stat thing is probably overstepping the small changes idea. I disagree with the no fluff thing though. The examples I used almost all come from precedent. Coteaz has both +1S (base S4) and +1 Retinue size (Formosa thing), while the sage henchman can boost +1 BS. The last one I just kinda threw in there, in line with the new special characters that GW is pumping out with leaders changing their troops, like Sicarus BFH. Still we should leave it out of this otherwise it could spiral into another GK wish list.

[Wrath]

With regards to Daemonic Infestation, I'm inclined to think that any "use common sense" wording will be abused and make for a lot of 4+ disagreement rolls.

 

I think that the wording of the 'Daemons' Terminology ought to be worked out to include all reasonable Daemonic units, therefore making things clear and unequivocal. Maybe something like this:

 

Throughout this codex, the term 'Daemon' refers to the following units:

Any unit with the word Daemon [this ought to include variations on that word, such as Daemonic] in its name, with the word Possessed in its name, with the keyword Daemon, with any powers or upgrades that include the word Daemon, with any powers or upgrades that include the word Possessed, Eldar Avatars, or taken from the Codex: Chaos Daemons [i think I got the codex name right, no?].

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Wrath Posted Today, 03:18 PM

With regards to Daemonic Infestation, I'm inclined to think that any "use common sense" wording will be abused and make for a lot of 4+ disagreement rolls.

 

I think that the wording of the 'Daemons' Terminology ought to be worked out to include all reasonable Daemonic units, therefore making things clear and unequivocal. Maybe something like this:

 

Throughout this codex, the term 'Daemon' refers to the following units:

Any unit with the word Daemon [this ought to include variations on that word, such as Daemonic] in its name, with the word Possessed in its name, with the keyword Daemon, with any powers or upgrades that include the word Daemon, with any powers or upgrades that include the word Possessed, Eldar Avatars, or taken from the Codex: Chaos Daemons [i think I got the codex name right, no?].

 

Unfortunately, I think you're right. How about we change the wording to "X, Y & Z count as Daemons. This is not an exhaustive list and players should agree with their opponent beforehand if any additional units are to be counted as Daemons."

 

Rather than trying to cover wording, this covers specific units and also caters for the inevitable codex creep.

 

For the list of Daemon units, I'll start:

 

Avatar of Khaine. (C:E)

Daemonhost: (C:DH)

Daemon Prince: (C:CSM)

Any unit selected from Codex: Chaos Daemons

Possessed Chaos Space Marines (C:CSM)

 

Have I missed anything? (I've deliberately left out Dark Eldar units such as Warp Beasts since they are due a codex update)

[Prathios]

Wrath Posted Today, 03:18 PM

With regards to Daemonic Infestation, I'm inclined to think that any "use common sense" wording will be abused and make for a lot of 4+ disagreement rolls.

 

I think that the wording of the 'Daemons' Terminology ought to be worked out to include all reasonable Daemonic units, therefore making things clear and unequivocal. Maybe something like this:

 

Throughout this codex, the term 'Daemon' refers to the following units:

Any unit with the word Daemon [this ought to include variations on that word, such as Daemonic] in its name, with the word Possessed in its name, with the keyword Daemon, with any powers or upgrades that include the word Daemon, with any powers or upgrades that include the word Possessed, Eldar Avatars, or taken from the Codex: Chaos Daemons [i think I got the codex name right, no?].

 

Unfortunately, I think you're right. How about we change the wording to "X, Y & Z count as Daemons. This is not an exhaustive list and players should agree with their opponent beforehand if any additional units are to be counted as Daemons."

 

Rather than trying to cover wording, this covers specific units and also caters for the inevitable codex creep.

 

For the list of Daemon units, I'll start:

 

Avatar of Khaine. (C:E)

Daemonhost: (C:DH)

Daemon Prince: (C:CSM)

Any unit selected from Codex: Chaos Daemons

Possessed Chaos Space Marines (C:CSM)

 

Have I missed anything? (I've deliberately left out Dark Eldar units such as Warp Beasts since they are due a codex update)

 

I don't know how this is reflected on the table top but defilers should be an available target. Attacking the daemon inside the vehicle should be a viable option for us. Even without getting through its thick candy shell it should be vulnerable to our anti-demon abilities. All I know is it is a daemon.

[Aidoneus]

As far as I know, the list of Daemons in 40k (not counting apocalypse, which opens up a whole new can of worms) is as follows:

 

Eldar: Avatar

Dark Eldar: Warp Beasts

Chaos Daemons: Everything (including soulgrinders)

Chaos Marines: Daemon Princes, Greater Daemons, Lesser Daemons, Possessed, vehicles with Daemonic Possession (which defiler have automatically)

Daemonhunters: Daemonhosts, Daemonic Adversaries

 

One might also consider adding chaos lords with daemon weapons, although that might be stretching it.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

One might also consider adding chaos lords with daemon weapons, although that might be stretching it.

 

No. Chaos Lords should be able to go toe-to-toe with our Grand Masters. Our advantages against the Daemons of Chaos should mean that the Chaos Gods have to turn to their mortal minions, instead of just giving up and going home in a sulk. ;)

[Prathios]

This may seem like a small point but if the weapon the champion is wielding is possessed by a demon it should be destroyable with our powers or have some negative attributes applied to it. Ironically that means that the axes that bloodthirsters use would technically suffer some kind of penalty, but then again perhaps that's part of why the GoTN lowers their weapon skill. Its not a big deal but perhaps its worth a look. Perhaps some kind of penalty like demonic weapons take a -1 to their users WS. We are supposed to be the best there is at what we do right? So at least to me this seems like a great way to be faithful to the lore while also being a strategic advantage that might make Chaos players think twice about what gear their champion is loaded up with.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

This may seem like a small point but if the weapon the champion is wielding is possessed by a demon it should be destroyable with our powers or have some negative attributes applied to it.

 

I agree, but I think that would be best applied to a weapon from the armoury, or a special character Grand Master. I don't think that sort of thing should turn up more than once per army.

[Prathios]

This may seem like a small point but if the weapon the champion is wielding is possessed by a demon it should be destroyable with our powers or have some negative attributes applied to it.

 

I agree, but I think that would be best applied to a weapon from the armoury, or a special character Grand Master. I don't think that sort of thing should turn up more than once per army.

 

No I fully agree with this. There is clearly precedent that not all GK are strong enough anyway to effect the demons infused inside weapons and that the champions of Chaos do indeed have a very legitimate chance at facing them in combat as equals or even betters. But against a GM I do think this should occur. They are the greatest anti-demon force in the Galaxy save the astronomicon itself. So I would imagine that someone like Stern (who is a GM for intents and purposes) or perhaps a new GM hero or any GM for that matter should have this pop up somewhere.

[FunkyEntropy]

Wrath Posted Today, 03:18 PM

With regards to Daemonic Infestation, I'm inclined to think that any "use common sense" wording will be abused and make for a lot of 4+ disagreement rolls.

 

I think that the wording of the 'Daemons' Terminology ought to be worked out to include all reasonable Daemonic units, therefore making things clear and unequivocal. Maybe something like this:

 

Throughout this codex, the term 'Daemon' refers to the following units:

Any unit with the word Daemon [this ought to include variations on that word, such as Daemonic] in its name, with the word Possessed in its name, with the keyword Daemon, with any powers or upgrades that include the word Daemon, with any powers or upgrades that include the word Possessed, Eldar Avatars, or taken from the Codex: Chaos Daemons [i think I got the codex name right, no?].

 

Unfortunately, I think you're right. How about we change the wording to "X, Y & Z count as Daemons. This is not an exhaustive list and players should agree with their opponent beforehand if any additional units are to be counted as Daemons."

 

Rather than trying to cover wording, this covers specific units and also caters for the inevitable codex creep.

 

For the list of Daemon units, I'll start:

 

Avatar of Khaine. (C:E)

Daemonhost: (C:DH)

Daemon Prince: (C:CSM)

Any unit selected from Codex: Chaos Daemons

Possessed Chaos Space Marines (C:CSM)

 

Have I missed anything? (I've deliberately left out Dark Eldar units such as Warp Beasts since they are due a codex update)

 

I think it's pretty safe to add Chaos Spawn to the list. Reasoning: they're probably awash in daemonic taint, even if they're not actually possessed by any particular demonic entity.

 

If yes, also consider adding Oblits to the list as well, since they're been pretty thoroughly inundated with daemonic gifts as well.

 

If no, well, then that helps set the upper limit for what gets classified as a daemonic unit. Daemonic energies not enough, requires presence of actual daemonic entity.

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What did you guys think of the idea to offer a stormbolter+psycannon bolt combo for 10pts? I think it makes sense from a fluff perspective to allow Inquisitors, their retinues, and IST vets to be throwing around AP4-no-invul-save dakka because that's probably the strongest protection they face in the line of duty (for anything nastier they call in the GK).

 

Remember, the other stuff they could buy for approx the same cost are the combi-weapons and plasma pistols.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

What did you guys think of the idea to offer a stormbolter+psycannon bolt combo for 10pts? I think it makes sense from a fluff perspective to allow Inquisitors, their retinues, and IST vets to be throwing around AP4-no-invul-save dakka because that's probably the strongest protection they face in the line of duty (for anything nastier they call in the GK).

 

Well, how about if you are using the Storm Bolter, then you get one of two options (example costs only):

 

Storm Bolter: 10pts

Storm Bolter & Psycannon Bolts: 15pts

Psycannon Bolts: 10pts

 

The idea is to encourage people to use the Storm Bolter & Psycannon Bolt combo with a points break, much in the same way Malleus gets a points break for their Thunder Hammers. This would then lead Inquisitors to mimic the Grey Knights, tying the army together aesthetically and in playing style.

 

I think it's pretty safe to add Chaos Spawn to the list. Reasoning: they're probably awash in daemonic taint, even if they're not actually possessed by any particular demonic entity.

 

If yes, also consider adding Oblits to the list as well, since they're been pretty thoroughly inundated with daemonic gifts as well.

 

If no, well, then that helps set the upper limit for what gets classified as a daemonic unit. Daemonic energies not enough, requires presence of actual daemonic entity.

 

I would go with the Spawn (since there's not much else to them but Daemonic essence) but not the Obliterators. They would probably be the upper limit on how daemonic you can get before you count as a Daemon.