Chaos Dreadnoughts

[Lady_Canoness]

All I've heard since the current Chaos Codex came out is how the new dreads are a waste of time. They give victory points to your enemy, maul your own squads, then die before doing anything useful. So many players say they have shelved their dreads, and any list with one in it is usually hit hard with dread-haters.

 

However, I take the opposite view from the anti-dreadnought brigade, so I'm writing this to say "guess what, our dreads are not only useful, but also BETTER than loyalist dreadnoughts!" Did you just read that right? Chaos Dreads, better than loyalists? Yes, and, thanks to my use of Chaos Dreadnoughts, everyone in my group now agrees - Chaos Dreads are freaking good; so good that I take them over the new Chaos poster boys (those absolutely delicious terminators).

 

So lets start with the facts:

On average, a Chaos Dreadnought is slightly cheaper than a loyalist dreadnought, and has an extra attack on its profile. Chaos Dreads are worse than they were last edition - no arguments there. 1/3 turns, your dreadnought will go crazy - 1/6 times will be 'good crazy' and the other, 'bad crazy'.

That about sums it for the facts, so now onto the argument.

 

A lone dreadnought (of any faction) is worth about half its points to the owner. They make very tempting targets to enemy heavy weapons, never get into combat, and have so few shots that unless they have anti-tank weapons, they won't get a lot of points back. Lone dreads are easy meat for fast attack anti-tank units (bikers and such). Lone Chaos Dreads are even more of a liability because when they go bad crazy, they are GOING to kill something you'd rather they didn't.

The moral of the story is to take 2 Chaos Dreadnoughts. Why? let me show you:

1- the first most important thing is to keep them togher - buddy system. ALWAY have them closer to each other than any other friendly unit. That way they only ever shoot at each other, and a pair of dreadnoughts will GREATLY discourage any fast attack or assault units from knocking them off in one charge (sure, they might kill one, but they other one will eat them next turn). Also, two Dreadnoughts protect each other from incoming fire (all the fire is directed at one, while the other gets a free ride)

2- Given that you want them to stick together, the next most important thing is to give them SAFE weapons. SAFE weapons are weapons that are still deadly, but not to each other. My favourite SAFE weapons are the Plasma Cannon (because it is devestating against anything that isn't armour), the Missile Launcher (frag missiles make it pretty idiot proof when shooting your partner, but krak makes him a good sniper), and the dual close combat weapons.

3- Dreads belong on your near flank (so not the EXTREME flank). This means that they don't draw any fire that would otherwise be directed at other armoured units (and if they do, so much the better), and they usuallyget to advance through cover while bypassing a strong enemy push.

 

All that can work with loyalist dreads, though, so what makes chaos dreads so good? Its the 'good crazy' running, fleeting, then charging. Most people can stay out of a dreadnought's 12" threat range, but when a Chaos Dread goes nuts, he can beat that range at any go, and when he hits with 4 attacks, people tend to notice. what if the dread charges a bad target though? a terget that could hurt him, or bog him down? That's why his buddy is, at the furthest, only a turn away. Getting a simultaneous charge off 'good crazy' is rare, but very very precious.

 

To sum up, Chaos Dreads only work in groups. In a pair, the are deadly. In a trio, the are unstoppable. Also, dreads are one of the cheaper units in our codex 120pts for an average dread, 240pts for 2, 360 for three. Keep them together with safe weapons, and they won't hurt your troops. I have fielded 2 dread for several games now, and each time I am amazed by their effect - they do more damage than Terminators, they are cheaper, and they can take more hits.

 

P.S. Extra armour is a MUST!

[Drudge Dreadnought]

There is also this: http://yesthetruthhurts.blogspot.com/2009/...aos-dreads.html which has got my dreads out on the table again.

[Megalodon]

Good post LC, I only field Dreads in pairs when I use them.

 

There is also this: http://yesthetruthhurts.blogspot.com/2009/...aos-dreads.html which has got my dreads out on the table again.

 

DD, I agree that is the proper way to use the Chaos Dred.

 

Megs

[chillin]

I'll give it a try LC, b/c I like my converted dread models. But if the 2 of them stand there shooting each other when I need them to attack enemy flank or flankers you are going to hear about it :D

[Mutt-Man!]

My dreads are "Defilers without Battle Cannons" when I feel like it.

 

Missile Launcher+DCCW or twin DCCW setup. Or if I feel real daring I toss in a plasma cannon/TLHB with their missile launcher marching along side obliterators, daemons or plague marines. (Pick frag, krak for daemons)

 

I like singular shooty dreads when I pack a list. Often I catch a lone spot very separated from the rest of my force, that could use some firepower. And that its LoS is blocked to all of my units. If I want more then one dread, I run two dreads on either side of an empty stock rhino (full rhino if they're melee dreads).

 

I never use Lascannons, Multi-Meltas, or Autocannons on my dreads. First, if I want to melt things I just move some marines close. If I want lascannons, I wouldnt put it on a AV12 vehicle just to get it shot, and autocannons arent worth not running for. TLHB/ML/PC/DCCW are what I use. Not just for the practicle use of multi-wound/FNP models, frag shots and small arms shots vs 2+saves, but that they are actually useful when I get to shoot them in nearly any turn of the game against nearly any adversary.

 

Its fun when you get a multi-melta and heavy flamer, and run it up alone and out of sight of your army. I have done that in smaller games, where I pick lots of durable specialists that like to hang back. Havocs in terrain, and the like.

 

Terrain favours Dreadnoughts these days. Especially when they make terrain out of your rhino, and then "fleet+double attacks" the next round.

 

For 120 points (average chaos dread and under) you can get 4 plad terminators, of 8 chaos space marines. If your dread fills a role these options cant really fill, you got your choice.

[Artangel]

I tried this a couple of times running H bolter/missile dreads as the "buddy" system and put quite bluntly they wipe then suck total waste of points IMHO. I found they were just not usefull for the points spent if one of them rolls a 1 then the other has to babysit the other, if one gets imobilised is the walking one just going to sit there?. If one gets destroyed then your back to a loose cannon in your own ranks and with a plasma cannon a very very loose cannon.

 

I'm currently converting my Chaos dreads to Imperial ironclads it was that or throw them in the bin total waste of metal and points in the current codex. The last time I ran them they spent the whole time just shooting each other doing no damage to themselfs but more importantly doing no damage to the enemy and costing 200 points for the privilidge :devil: .

 

I would gladly fight a Chaos army with Dreads more the merrier would make the job a whole lot easier, however I love my imperial fist Army. I use 5 Dreadnoughts with the Master of the forge as HQ and another tech marine all working as a big unit. Dreadnoughts work even better with tech marines that can repair them that dont shoot each other:)

 

Artangel

[minigun762]

1- the first most important thing is to keep them togher - buddy system. ALWAY have them closer to each other than any other friendly unit. That way they only ever shoot at each other, and a pair of dreadnoughts will GREATLY discourage any fast attack or assault units from knocking them off in one charge (sure, they might kill one, but they other one will eat them next turn). Also, two Dreadnoughts protect each other from incoming fire (all the fire is directed at one, while the other gets a free ride)

2- Given that you want them to stick together, the next most important thing is to give them SAFE weapons. SAFE weapons are weapons that are still deadly, but not to each other. My favourite SAFE weapons are the Plasma Cannon (because it is devestating against anything that isn't armour), the Missile Launcher (frag missiles make it pretty idiot proof when shooting your partner, but krak makes him a good sniper), and the dual close combat weapons.

 

I think this is part of the reason that Chaoszilla might be a better use of Dreadnoughts than in a normal match.

 

In normal games, Terminators or even CSMs can do much of the work that a Dreadnought can do and more reliabily, however if you throw enough light armor onto the table and gear up your Dreads with either dual DCCW's or a "safe" weapon then you're still able to safely go around killing things and not fear your own fire frenzies.

 

Of course people have to come to grips with the fact that Chaos Dreads are just not quite as trustworthy. The benefit of that is that they're cheaper and have more attacks then their Loyalists.

[Lady_Canoness]

I tried this a couple of times running H bolter/missile dreads as the "buddy" system and put quite bluntly they wipe then suck total waste of points IMHO. I found they were just not usefull for the points spent if one of them rolls a 1 then the other has to babysit the other, if one gets imobilised is the walking one just going to sit there?. If one gets destroyed then your back to a loose cannon in your own ranks and with a plasma cannon a very very loose cannon.

 

I'm currently converting my Chaos dreads to Imperial ironclads it was that or throw them in the bin total waste of metal and points in the current codex. The last time I ran them they spent the whole time just shooting each other doing no damage to themselfs but more importantly doing no damage to the enemy and costing 200 points for the privilidge :P .

 

I would gladly fight a Chaos army with Dreads more the merrier would make the job a whole lot easier, however I love my imperial fist Army. I use 5 Dreadnoughts with the Master of the forge as HQ and another tech marine all working as a big unit. Dreadnoughts work even better with tech marines that can repair them that dont shoot each other:)

 

Artangel

 

I like that you brought that up, because that is the sentiment that is going around. Last Friday I played against Tyranids at 1000pts for 2 games, both times I used 2 dreads; 1 with a Plasma Cannon and 1 with dual close combat weapons. Over the two game (which were both victories, I might add) the dreads accounted for 2 carnifexes, a hive tyrant, plenty of guants, and genestealers all in close combat (shooting was effective, but not as total a melee). Also, one dread always survived the game. I now prefer taking 2 dreads over terminators for one very simple reason - dreads can get the job done better at a much cheaper cost. Being immue to small arms is particularily valuable, and their general resistance against anything short of a melta-gun or a lascannon cannot be ignored. Sure, fire frenzy is bad about 75% of the time, but with his dread buddy and safe weapon, you aren't going to lose anything from it, while getting the surprise extra-long charge more than balances out the fire-frenzy.

Keeping your dreadnoughts with anti-infantry heavy weapons also means that you shouldn't be engaging entrenched enemy guns, rather you should have the dreads advancing through terrain with a decent cover save so that the only shot the enemy gets at you is when you are in threat range to do some serious damage. Not to mention that a Chaos Dread's unpredictability serves to make them less of a high priority target for any opponent (which is a big bloody mistake)

You think fighting a Chaos army with dreads would be fun? Sure, I'll bet you love it when they pull off a 15" charge into a tactical squad and proceed to butcher them all. I doubt you'd want to meet a large group of Chaos Dreads in a city-fight either.

Sure imperial dreads are more reliable, but they are also more predictable, meaning that they are also more killable. The unpredictability of the Chaos dreads are their biggest asset. They are significantly better than imperial dreadnoughts, and in the hands of a competant commander, a pair of them can be utterly devestating.

 

Remember to keep them together, out of plain sight for as long as possible, equipped with safe weapons, and you should be fine. Give them things like multi-melta, keep them apart, and march them with the rest of your army, and you are going to have some point-sinks on your hands.

Use them smart, or don't use them at all.

[Dràyhèn]

I'm going to give them a try, as an alternate option.

Though I still doubt it works better than termies or Defiler :P

[Hobo Willie]

No one I play against ever shoots a Chaos dreadnought unless all other armoured targets are either destroyed or incapacitated. I just run one dread, but I use a twin-linked heavy bolter and just run a rhino next to it if he fire frenzies early. Often, he doesn't fire frenzy until he's already closer to the enemy. And there is the chance for some 'fleet' action. My opponents always wait for it to shoot my own guys but their hesitation always means it winds up in their lines before I need to worry about it. B)

[Luigiman59]

I wonder if the "Chaos Dreads can only see in front of them" theory would hold up in tournaments

 

i hope so LOL

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I wonder if the "Chaos Dreads can only see in front of them" theory would hold up in tournaments

 

i hope so LOL

 

I'd discuss it with the TO first. Most people are used to the old rules still and will think it works the other way.

[Hellios]

I wonder if the "Chaos Dreads can only see in front of them" theory would hold up in tournaments

 

i hope so LOL

 

I'd discuss it with the TO first. Most people are used to the old rules still and will think it works the other way.

 

Yer but as the BBB says they have a 45 degree pivot I think, not the old 360 so TBH it shouldn't be an issue. I personally think that a number of the newer dex were made with 5th in mind (because they would have had some kind of idea), and this was probabbly one of the things..

 

Anyway I'm still not a big fan of a dreads. Sure they can be nasty but... With objectives being important so often now its not a matter of how much they kill and TBH I have more faith in a unit of 1ksons on foot contesting a an objectives on the other side of the board (from deployment) that a Chaos dread. The buddy system isn't new although its not really needed now... if you run the dread in front of your army like in 3.5 it can't shoot what's behind it anyway. I've seen dreads make a mess (through 3.5 onwards) when they get good roles, its when the roles go bad its a problem and I would compare them to how many people look at possessed. Lots of good stuff going on but without knowing what they will do you can't plan for them.

 

In some friendly games I'll take random units and I would be happy to use a dread. But in a tourney or campaign where although I don't go to power game as some would call it, I do try and at least put up a list that will fight. One of the chaos armies I use is a puritan thousand son army (so I'm very restricted to what I can use) I would love to take some dreads but when my army is so small already and I may need to grab objectives I can't afford to take a unit that will stand around shooting when I need it to move (regardless of who it shoots) and the same goes if it rushes off an objective and then the enemy take it while its run off after someone else... I won't be happy.

[Brother Nihm]

Goatboy here, and let me start by saying I was wrong. The trick with Chaos Dreadnoughts I was talking about does not work, according to the nice people at GW who wrote the books. Dreadnoughts, like every other model in 40K, can see 360 degrees around themselves, and only worry about Arc of Sight for weapons after they choose their targets. That said, a lot of you were swayed to my side of the argument, and that brings me to my topic for this week – rules abuse.

From : BOLS

[Hydra Bait]

Brilliant! I'm painting up my Dread Buddies as we speak.

And now I have a mental picture of my Dread Buddies holding hands, skipping down the battlefield, blaring Simon and Garfunkel over the vox casters, until one goes Fire Frenzy and blasts the other to pieces.

 

And I just read Nihm's post. Hmm. back to the drawing board.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Goatboy here, and let me start by saying I was wrong. The trick with Chaos Dreadnoughts I was talking about does not work, according to the nice people at GW who wrote the books. Dreadnoughts, like every other model in 40K, can see 360 degrees around themselves, and only worry about Arc of Sight for weapons after they choose their targets. That said, a lot of you were swayed to my side of the argument, and that brings me to my topic for this week – rules abuse.

From : BOLS

 

Well this is disheartening. If you read the comments apparently this ruling came from one of the actual rules writers. Their reason? That everything has 360 degree LoS. However, nowhere in the 5th edition rulebook is this said. Its an old 4th ed rule. What are we, as players trying to follow rules responsibly, supposed to do when the writers of said rules start referring to rules that do not actually exist anywhere in the book?

[Zhukov]

I had 2 test game today w/ 2 dreads w/ double DCCW's

 

Not too bad. In the first game they did well till one got immobilez. Next turn the other had to walk in front of the immobilized one. No one will be surprised that I threw a 1 on the crazed table for that one. So he shot his 'buddy' in the back with 8 bolter shots. He immobilized him ;)

 

Second game I just had some bad luck with my throwing. 5 attacks on the charge, none hit. That happened about twice. Ah well. Was kinda funny though cause I HAD to charge a deathwing squad with 5 fists in it. His both arms were punched off along with his legs (immobilized). Next with 1 headbutt attack left he did nothing of course and got destroyed.

 

 

I think its viable, not tourney worthy as far as I see it now but my regular playing mate and I will have some more tests. However you should have enough other armour on the table. You almost have to play some sort of chaoszilla ish.

[Night Stalker]

I had 2 test game today w/ 2 dreads w/ double DCCW's

 

Not too bad. In the first game they did well till one got immobilez. Next turn the other had to walk in front of the immobilized one. No one will be surprised that I threw a 1 on the crazed table for that one. So he shot his 'buddy' in the back with 8 bolter shots. He immobilized him :tu:

 

You know that movement is before shooting right ? So why you didnt expose his side ?

[Zhukov]

Because the other threw a 6, but wait, the dread doesnt have to face towards the closest enemy or does it? Then indeed I could have faced his side armour to him. Ah well.

 

EDIT: know it did right, you have to face towards the enemy with a 6 on the crazed tabel

[minigun762]

I had 2 test game today w/ 2 dreads w/ double DCCW's

 

Not too bad. In the first game they did well till one got immobilez. Next turn the other had to walk in front of the immobilized one. No one will be surprised that I threw a 1 on the crazed table for that one. So he shot his 'buddy' in the back with 8 bolter shots. He immobilized him :tu:

 

Second game I just had some bad luck with my throwing. 5 attacks on the charge, none hit. That happened about twice. Ah well. Was kinda funny though cause I HAD to charge a deathwing squad with 5 fists in it. His both arms were punched off along with his legs (immobilized). Next with 1 headbutt attack left he did nothing of course and got destroyed.

 

 

I think its viable, not tourney worthy as far as I see it now but my regular playing mate and I will have some more tests. However you should have enough other armour on the table. You almost have to play some sort of chaoszilla ish.

 

 

I'd like to hear a few more mini battle reports like this, but so far its not that impressive which is kinda sad. ;)

I WANT to like the Dreadnought, I really do but the whole Crazy thing just might be too much of a burden, even with the other bonuses.

[Hobo Willie]

I know I've already thrown in my two cents, but here's my take on the whole thing.

 

I've been playing this game for probably a decade. When we first took up playing, it was just few of us. Two SM players, my CSM, and another person with an Imperial Guard army. As soon as we purchased dreadnoughts, we began a mini-game we liked to call Dreadnoughtica, where regardless of the actual game going on, our dreadnoughts would run straight for each other, with the occasional Sentinel squad sent in as well ("For the Emperor!"). While we never actually kept track of who won the games, we did keep track of our Dreadnoughtica victories and due to the IG player often trying to kill our Dreads before we could enter into the glorious Dreadnoughtica, it was a major victory just getting them into assault range.

 

Now, when this latest Codex launched, I saw the perfect opportunity for the best thing ever. I purchased a second Dreadnought and put them together, which made my buddies pull out their 2nd dreadnoughts and the like. Only, instead of gunning right for their dreads, I could roll ones and have self-Dreadnoughtica. It was a glorious moment that sent that game spiraling into Legend. As we all agreed when my lascannon Dreadnought made my other Dreadnought explode, the best Dreadnoughtica is self-Dreadnoughtica.

 

You can call Chaos Dreadnoughts subpar units but when you're rolling ones with them, just imagine them saying to each other "No, you're the best target to shoot at." "No, you're the best target to shoot at." Back and forth endlessly.

[Night Stalker]

Because the other threw a 6, but wait, the dread doesnt have to face towards the closest enemy or does it? Then indeed I could have faced his side armour to him. Ah well.

 

You'll know it next time ;)

[Hellios]

I'm not sure where this dreadnoughts can see behind them comes from... I admit this is because I never use dreadnoughts and if I ever fight them and they show their rear they are dead already...

 

From what I get dreadies can pivot 45 degres each way for shooting for purposes of gun arc... and that LoS is based on true line of site from the eyes of a model which for dreadnoughts = the holes in the face (or slits in more modern imperial dreads) on the front of the dread... considering the limited movement for one and the total lack of movement for the other unless the dreadnought can look through its inside and past its rear armour I can't see how they can see behind themselves.... and so a unit behind should not be a visible target because its not in actual line of site which 5th ed uses.

 

Oh and dreads are vehicles... you may want to check your BBB Walkers are a sub category of vehicle which modify the vehicle rules along with other rules such as open topped, tank, skimmer and fast.

[Megalodon]

Hellios, it's because everyone is under the assumption that their is a rule stating models have 360 degree LOS. I have seen no such rule in the MBR.

 

If there is such a rule would someone please give me the page number and quote it.

[Hellios]

Hellios, it's because everyone is under the assumption that their is a rule stating models have 360 degree LOS. I have seen no such rule in the MBR.

 

If there is such a rule would someone please give me the page number and quote it.

 

That's what I'm thinking, I think its assumed for infantry that they can turn their heads or at least turn on the spot to see without it affecting them shooting (may fire heavy weapons so on) and so that makes no difference (except maybe Ork tank hunters but I'm not sure what their rules are.) :<

 

I've never had 360 line of site as an issue in a game before but I'm not sure where its written in the BBB.