Chaos Dreadnoughts

[Hellios]

I rang GW(UK) and they said dreadnoughts do not have a 360 degree LoS but can see from 45 degrees out on one arm to 45 degrees out from the other (aka the most extreme pivots of the weapon)

[Arschbombe]

Once again, you can only do what the rules say you can. If it isn't in the rules, it doesn't work that way. The rules also specifically mention that you need to be able to draw LOS from a model's eyes.

 

Yes, but the models that have eyes are infantry models that can turn to face their targets in the shooting phase. Dreadnoughts don't have eyes, they have vision slits and sensors. (Where are the eyes on a rhino? A Landraider? Can they see nothing because they have no eyes?) Dreads can also turn to face their targets in the shooting phase. The only difference is that a dreadnought that turns to face a target can potentially expose weak armor to another enemy whereas infantry do not have to worry about that.

 

 

I rang GW(UK) and they said dreadnoughts do not have a 360 degree LoS but can see from 45 degrees out on one arm to 45 degrees out from the other (aka the most extreme pivots of the weapon)

 

This contradicts what the GW (US ) guy told the BoLS guy who got this whole ball rolling with this "I don't have to shoot you because I can't see you business. "

 

There is nothing in the rules that defines limits of vision of determining line of sight. The only things defined in this way are firing arcs. Dreadnoughts have a limited firing arc, but because they are so nimble they can freely turn 360 degrees in their shooting phase to shoot whomever they can see. The firing arc just defines how they must face in order to shoot a given target.

 

You guys are arguing for a rule that doesn't exist in order to make one unit from one codex more viable in the game. That alone should be enough to tell you that you are wrong.

[Hellios]

Once again, you can only do what the rules say you can. If it isn't in the rules, it doesn't work that way. The rules also specifically mention that you need to be able to draw LOS from a model's eyes.

 

Yes, but the models that have eyes are infantry models that can turn to face their targets in the shooting phase. Dreadnoughts don't have eyes, they have vision slits and sensors. (Where are the eyes on a rhino? A Landraider? Can they see nothing because they have no eyes?) Dreads can also turn to face their targets in the shooting phase. The only difference is that a dreadnought that turns to face a target can potentially expose weak armor to another enemy whereas infantry do not have to worry about that.

 

 

I rang GW(UK) and they said dreadnoughts do not have a 360 degree LoS but can see from 45 degrees out on one arm to 45 degrees out from the other (aka the most extreme pivots of the weapon)

 

This contradicts what the GW (US ) guy told the BoLS guy who got this whole ball rolling with this "I don't have to shoot you because I can't see you business. "

 

There is nothing in the rules that defines limits of vision of determining line of sight. The only things defined in this way are firing arcs. Dreadnoughts have a limited firing arc, but because they are so nimble they can freely turn 360 degrees in their shooting phase to shoot whomever they can see. The firing arc just defines how they must face in order to shoot a given target.

 

You guys are arguing for a rule that doesn't exist in order to make one unit from one codex more viable in the game. That alone should be enough to tell you that you are wrong.

 

 

 

No I think you will find people are arguing that people using the 360 rule are making an argument for a rule that doesn't exist. I know it conflicts with what the US said and thats one reason I posted it as it seems even GW hasn't got any real view...

 

and yes the rules do limit it... what a model can actually see using its true line of site.... weapons on vehicles are covered in the weapons section as they all fire separately and determine what they can see separately. So the question is do they use weapon LoS in which case its simple or true line of site in which case what is this for a dreadnought? Also we wouldn't be arguing it if it was clear and if its clear and we have misunderstood the rules why not just post the specific extract here unless of course you can't.

 

Something... a rather simple concept is that just because a dreadnought can pivot to face and then shoot something... that isn't the same thing as it being visible to him turning to get a better fire arc and then shooting... Just someone post up this 360 rule if it exists and not all this is decided before movement and shooting so it must be visible before you move and before you shoot.

 

On the note of true line of site :D its a reason to model extra mutated eyes on your models :)

[Arschbombe]

No I think you will find people are arguing that people using the 360 rule are making an argument for a rule that doesn't exist. I know it conflicts with what the US said and thats one reason I posted it as it seems even GW hasn't got any real view...

 

I think they do. But GW seems perpetually unprepared by the legalistic nuances of their customer base.

 

and yes the rules do limit it... what a model can actually see using its true line of site.... weapons on vehicles are covered in the weapons section as they all fire separately and determine what they can see separately. So the question is do they use weapon LoS in which case its simple or true line of site in which case what is this for a dreadnought? Also we wouldn't be arguing it if it was clear and if its clear and we have misunderstood the rules why not just post the specific extract here unless of course you can't.

 

Something... a rather simple concept is that just because a dreadnought can pivot to face and then shoot something... that isn't the same thing as it being visible to him turning to get a better fire arc and then shooting... Just someone post up this 360 rule if it exists and not all this is decided before movement and shooting so it must be visible before you move and before you shoot.

 

 

 

OK. We have two sections to LOS rules. One seems targeted at infantry and other non-vehicles models, the ones with "eyes" and one that deals with vehicles. Vehicles don't have eyes to check LOS from and check LOS from the weapons themselves instead. For most vehicles, this is fairly simple. The walkers can pivot and can potentially see and shoot at far more targets so that makes it a little more complicated when the rules are taking away your ability to choose a target.

 

So instead of a "all units can see 360 degrees" assumption we can take a different approach. The crazed rule calls for the crazed dread to "pivot towards the closest visible unit (friend or foe) and fire all of its weapons - twice." The question here is how to determine the closest visible unit. There are no rules for determining visible units. All we have is rules for determining LOS. So we have to make the assumption that a visible unit is one to which there is LOS. Closest is easy. The rules clearly show how to measure distance. Based on the LOS rules that we have for vehicles I would say you have to pivot the dread and check LOS from its weapons to every unit starting the with closest one. The dread then fires at the first unit to which it has been found to have LOS from one of its weapons. You don't have to check every unit because you will stop checking as soon as you find a unit in his LOS.

 

Determine closest unit. LOS to that unit? Yes, fire. No, go to next unit. LOS to that unit? Yes, fire. No, next unit. etc etc.

 

This approach satisfies all requirements of the rules. It doesn't invent any new ones like dreads can't see behind them or that they don't have to pivot if they don't want to etc etc.

[intel31337]

I rang GW(UK) and they said dreadnoughts do not have a 360 degree LoS but can see from 45 degrees out on one arm to 45 degrees out from the other (aka the most extreme pivots of the weapon)

 

This contradicts what the GW (US ) guy told the BoLS guy who got this whole ball rolling with this "I don't have to shoot you because I can't see you business. "

 

There is nothing in the rules that defines limits of vision of determining line of sight. The only things defined in this way are firing arcs. Dreadnoughts have a limited firing arc, but because they are so nimble they can freely turn 360 degrees in their shooting phase to shoot whomever they can see. The firing arc just defines how they must face in order to shoot a given target.

 

 

FYI, The guy on BOLS (goatboy) called up, and came up with the same ruling as Arschbombe. He later apologized for this.

http://belloflostsouls.blogspot.com/2009/0...-get-ruled.html

(I also recommend reading the rest of the article, as it goes into a discussion about how misunderstanding rules can lead to rule abuse)

 

And please, just read the rules for walker shooting. They clearly lay out the order of sequence used when walkers shoot, ie:

 

1) Pivot walker on the spot (pivoting, as explained in movement section, is unlimited therefore granting 360 vision)

2) Ensure target is within the weapons arc (this is why the 45 degree arc is defined)

3) Measure range and check LOS (It is important to note that LOS is checked after pivoting)

 

We can say a target is "visible" if you are able to draw LOS to them.

 

Thus, if the closest unit to your dreadnought is behind them, then the dread are able turn around and draw LOS, making them the 'closest visible target'

[Hellios]

I rang GW(UK) and they said dreadnoughts do not have a 360 degree LoS but can see from 45 degrees out on one arm to 45 degrees out from the other (aka the most extreme pivots of the weapon)

 

This contradicts what the GW (US ) guy told the BoLS guy who got this whole ball rolling with this "I don't have to shoot you because I can't see you business. "

 

There is nothing in the rules that defines limits of vision of determining line of sight. The only things defined in this way are firing arcs. Dreadnoughts have a limited firing arc, but because they are so nimble they can freely turn 360 degrees in their shooting phase to shoot whomever they can see. The firing arc just defines how they must face in order to shoot a given target.

 

 

FYI, The guy on BOLS (goatboy) called up, and came up with the same ruling as Arschbombe. He later apologized for this.

http://belloflostsouls.blogspot.com/2009/0...-get-ruled.html

(I also recommend reading the rest of the article, as it goes into a discussion about how misunderstanding rules can lead to rule abuse)

 

And please, just read the rules for walker shooting. They clearly lay out the order of sequence used when walkers shoot, ie:

 

1) Pivot walker on the spot (pivoting, as explained in movement section, is unlimited therefore granting 360 vision)

2) Ensure target is within the weapons arc (this is why the 45 degree arc is defined)

3) Measure range and check LOS (It is important to note that LOS is checked after pivoting)

 

We can say a target is "visible" if you are able to draw LOS to them.

 

Thus, if the closest unit to your dreadnought is behind them, then the dread are able turn around and draw LOS, making them the 'closest visible target'

 

Ok I can turn 360 degrees in real life and so can see 360 degrees around me however this in no way means that my true line of sight is 360 degrees. What is visible to you is decided before you move (which includes pivoting) regardless of what phase its done in. Also Arschebombe is just saying what happened in the BoLS case not his own and I've already read the article.

[intel31337]

Ok I can turn 360 degrees in real life and so can see 360 degrees around me however this in no way means that my true line of sight is 360 degrees. What is visible to you is decided before you move (which includes pivoting) regardless of what phase its done in. Also Arschebombe is just saying what happened in the BoLS case not his own and I've already read the article.

 

A turret mounted weapon is able to turn 360 degrees and are able to see 360. They are able to draw a true LOS at any point along its arc. In the case of the turret, you rotate the turret before checking LOS. So why does this not apply to a dread that is also able to pivot 360?

 

Where is this defined that visibility is decided before movement, regardless of phase? Also, what do you define as visibility?

 

Walker shooting rules DO define clearly that LOS is checked after pivoting.

 

Another thing people keep bringing up is that dreads apparently have heads, and have to be able to "see" using their "eyes". LOS for vehicles is measured from the weapon, regardless of how many eyes a model might have.

[chillin]

I rang GW(UK) and they said dreadnoughts do not have a 360 degree LoS but can see from 45 degrees out on one arm to 45 degrees out from the other (aka the most extreme pivots of the weapon)

 

This contradicts what the GW (US ) guy told the BoLS guy who got this whole ball rolling with this "I don't have to shoot you because I can't see you business. "

 

-

When someone sz they ask a GW guy, what does that mean ?? What "GW guy" did they talk to ?? Was it the game designer that knows how he wanted the rule interpted (seriously doubt it), was it a store manager, a red shirt, a receptionist, a janitor, ???

Point being, "I called GW" or a "GW guy told another guy..." really carries no more weight then anybodies else's opinion since there is no way to confirm who they even talked to.

[Lady_Canoness]

Off topic, anyone? Wow, way to turn a productive thread into a war over who can see what...

 

Pretty sad, guys, pretty sad...

[Hellios]

Ok I can turn 360 degrees in real life and so can see 360 degrees around me however this in no way means that my true line of sight is 360 degrees. What is visible to you is decided before you move (which includes pivoting) regardless of what phase its done in. Also Arschebombe is just saying what happened in the BoLS case not his own and I've already read the article.

 

Where is this defined that visibility is decided before movement, regardless of phase? Also, what do you define as visibility?

Walker shooting rules defines clearly that LOS is checked after pivoting.

 

Yes but insanity is done before pivoting that's the whole point and then you pivot towards the nearest visible unit. If you can't see it (it is not in true line of sight right at the beginning from the models eye point of view) when you roll for insanity it can't be one of the targets out of whatever can be seen the nearest (friend or foe) is selected you pivot towards it to make sure all your guns are facing it and dakka away with it.

 

This still means you need to be careful with your dreads and things like Eldritch storm (that spin you around) can still cause problems....

 

The thing is the way the rules work issues with visibility don't cause a problem for any other unit, this issue only arises for the chaos dread...

 

and not its not off topic because this whole thing changes how people might perceive a chaos dread to be. Which is what this topic was about right? how good they are as opposed to rubbish as many people think.

[Arschbombe]

The rule argument is the heart of the discussion. The chaos dread gets a point break for being crazy and the dreadnought fans are trying to minimize the negative effects of the craziness and make the dread more effective by creating a whole new concept of arc of visibility. Maybe the thread would be better off with a split.

 

Anyway, the rules are absolutely clear.

 

Pivot.

 

Check LOS

 

Firex2.

 

It doesn't say, pivot to face the best target with the current frontal 90 degree arc of the dreadnought. It doesn't say to fire at a unit that the dread can hit with both weapons. It doesn't say anything about dreadnoughts having blind spots behind them. It says closest visible unit. A visible unit has to be defined as one that it has LOS to with at least one weapon. There's nothing else in the rules that it could be.

[intel31337]

and not its not off topic because this whole thing changes how people might perceive a chaos dread to be. Which is what this topic was about right? how good they are as opposed to rubbish as many people think.

 

Agreed. It is important that this rule is clearly defined because it will determine how effective the chaos dreadnought is.

 

Yes but insanity is done before pivoting that's the whole point and then you pivot towards the nearest visible unit. If you can't see it (it is not in true line of sight right at the beginning from the models eye point of view) when you roll for insanity it can't be one of the targets out of whatever can be seen the nearest (friend or foe) is selected you pivot towards it to make sure all your guns are facing it and dakka away with it.

 

This still means you need to be careful with your dreads and things like Eldritch storm (that spin you around) can still cause problems....

 

The thing is the way the rules work issues with visibility don't cause a problem for any other unit, this issue only arises for the chaos dread...

 

Ok, so rule for fire frenzy does state that the dreadnought cannot move or assault this turn.

 

But, I will once again direct your attention to the rule for pivoting on page 57, which does clearly state the following:

 

"Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving, so a vehicle that only pivots in the Movement phase counts as stationary (however, immobilized vehicles may not even pivot.)"

 

Therefore, the dreadnought is free to pivot as defined in the rules for walker shooting.

[Hellios]

and not its not off topic because this whole thing changes how people might perceive a chaos dread to be. Which is what this topic was about right? how good they are as opposed to rubbish as many people think.

 

Agreed. It is important that this rule is clearly defined because it will determine how effective the chaos dreadnought is.

 

Yes but insanity is done before pivoting that's the whole point and then you pivot towards the nearest visible unit. If you can't see it (it is not in true line of sight right at the beginning from the models eye point of view) when you roll for insanity it can't be one of the targets out of whatever can be seen the nearest (friend or foe) is selected you pivot towards it to make sure all your guns are facing it and dakka away with it.

 

This still means you need to be careful with your dreads and things like Eldritch storm (that spin you around) can still cause problems....

 

The thing is the way the rules work issues with visibility don't cause a problem for any other unit, this issue only arises for the chaos dread...

 

Ok, so rule for fire frenzy does state that the dreadnought cannot move or assault this turn.

 

But, I will once again direct your attention to the rule for pivoting on page 57, which does clearly state the following:

 

"Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving, so a vehicle that only pivots in the Movement phase counts as stationary (however, immobilized vehicles may not even pivot.)"

 

Therefore, the dreadnought is free to pivot as defined in the rules for walker shooting.

 

Yes but you pivot in the movement or shooting phase which is after the you have chosen your target from fire frenzy.

[intel31337]

Yes but you pivot in the movement or shooting phase which is after the you have chosen your target from fire frenzy.

 

In the movement phase, you are still allowed to pivot, as it doesn't count as moving.

 

In this case, the target is chosen for you, and is chosen in the shooting phase, not before the movement. (ie, if it were chosen in the movement phase, you can move that unit out of LOS... this isn't allowed since its chosen in shooting).

 

In the case of fire frenzy, your target must satisfy two conditions. (1) you are able to draw LOS, and (2) it is the closest target with LOS. The fire frenzy rule does not state that you have to pivot after you select a target. It says you have pivot to the target that satisfies these conditions.

 

So if you can draw LOS, it satisfies condition (1). Since you are permitted to pivot, and therefore, you are able to draw LOS of a unit behind you. This means that you can and must target units that are out of the arc of fire at the start of shooting phase. Condition (2) can only be checked after determining all available targets.

[Lord Doyok]

I used to think Chaos Dread works like what you guys are arguing about. But not anymore.

 

You guys really should look back at the True LOS section. It did say that the only models you cannot see is those completely hidden behind terrains (walls, ruins) or vehicles or other obstacles that block your models view. That means those behind your models is still within your LOS.

 

Imagine this situation: a squad of termies deepstriked behind my Vindicator. I didn't move or pivot the Vindi during my movement phase. Then enter the Shooting Phase. Do you now claim my Vindi cannot see and shoot the Deepstriked termies since it is out of my firing arc? (Well.. you did claim the firing arc is the LOS didn't you).

 

But that is not the way.. By the book, i can pivot my Vindi during my shooting to brings the Termies into my firing arc (provided i didn't move/pivot during the shooting phase).

 

Now think about that situation again, but now with the Chaos Dread.

 

Not just MHO. But by the book.

[Ragnar Lodbrok]

Oh well back to the drawing board this thread made me hopeful in regards to Dreads but now I am back to feeling meh about them. Oh well it just means more points to sink somewhere else. :P

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Hi again. What a lot of you are missing is that a unit doesn't need to see a target to attempt to shoot it. You just need to see it to actually shoot it. You can pick any unit on the board and declare that you are attempting to shoot it because you declare your target before you check LOS or measure. Infantry can still only see what they can see with their eyes, and vehicles with their weapon arcs. The issue with fire frenzy is how you determine what you are trying to shoot at since you, the player who can see everything, don't actually decide the dread's target. This time the target IS based on what the unit can see before you declare the shot.

[Lord Doyok]

You can pick any unit on the board and declare that you are attempting to shoot it because you declare your target before you check LOS or measure

That is where you are wrong. You measure the distance after you declare target. But LOS was check before you choose the target. You cannot choose target that you cannot see (unless specifically stated you dont requitre LOS). And like was mention in the True LOS page, you can see everything unless they are hidden behind obstacles as stated in my earlier post.

[intel31337]

Oh well back to the drawing board this thread made me hopeful in regards to Dreads but now I am back to feeling meh about them. Oh well it just means more points to sink somewhere else. ;)

 

Dreads are still great if used right. The OP still has a lot of valid points. Buddy system is definitely the way to go, and you can still fit them with 'safe' weapons, and still be effective. As the OP stated, they only go crazy 'bad' 1/6 of the time, while they could also go crazy 'good' the other 1/6 of the time. Unfortunately, there is no remedy for fire frenzy, but they are cheaper and more attacks vs imperial dreads.

 

I've been pondering about using 2 CCW dreads in my world eaters army for a good year now, and if anything, the OP has made me want them even more. They are way better in CC than defilers, and much easier to hide. Hell, they are more effective against certain units than my daemon prince since they can instant kill most special characters, and are pretty harder to take down in CC unless the enemy is packing tons of high str weapons (which would probably hurt a DP even more).

[Drudge Dreadnought]

You can pick any unit on the board and declare that you are attempting to shoot it because you declare your target before you check LOS or measure

That is where you are wrong. You measure the distance after you declare target. But LOS was check before you choose the target. You cannot choose target that you cannot see (unless specifically stated you dont requitre LOS). And like was mention in the True LOS page, you can see everything unless they are hidden behind obstacles as stated in my earlier post.

 

You are misinterpreting my post. Page 15 of the rules it says for step 1 of shooting you check line of sight and pick a target. So, you pick a unit of yours, and you check to see what it can see. But you don't need to be able to see it to check if you can see it. You just need to be able to see it to actually shoot it. This is why there is no longer a 360 degree rule in the book.

 

It breaks down to this: Units are allowed to check to see if they can see other units regardless of whether they can see them or not. This is really obvious. This is because you, the player, are picking the target, and you have to check to see if you can see it before you know that you cannot see it.

 

When a dread does a fire frenzy, you check what it can see based off what it, the unit, can see. Not based on what you as the player can see. You are not picking the target, the rules are dictating the target for you. And the target is decided before you get to pivot it. The rule says to "pivot on the spot towards the closest visible unit". You have to know what you are pivoting towards before you can pivot. And what do you pivot towards? The closest visible unit. And what is visible? What it can see. And what it can see is what is in its fire arc, as for vehicles what they can see is what is in their fire arc.

[Artangel]

OK are we all finished fighting can we get back on topic now:).

 

I used a couple of Dreads this week for two games with plasma/missile and they at best OK. The first game both went crazed at some point first turn and 4th turn alas on the 4th turn his buddy was destroyed by turn two so he lit up 3 of my Zerkers with a direct hit on his plasma cannon. I found they realy did not contribute much to the game I probably wont run plasma dreads again.

 

The second game was about the same but were equiped with H bolter/missile vs Orcs within turn 3 both were dead from HTH by power claws I think 200 points would of been better spent on 9.5 Zerkers.

 

Anyway tried them again and they still just dont make good tactical sence. I play in a mature club where people have a tendancy to be good players and will punish any weakness in your Army lines and I see Dreads as a huge weakness still.

 

Today is the Day my two Chaos Dreads get converted to Imperial Fist Ironclads.

 

Artangel

[intel31337]

OK are we all finished fighting can we get back on topic now:).

 

I used a couple of Dreads this week for two games with plasma/missile and they at best OK. The first game both went crazed at some point first turn and 4th turn alas on the 4th turn his buddy was destroyed by turn two so he lit up 3 of my Zerkers with a direct hit on his plasma cannon. I found they realy did not contribute much to the game I probably wont run plasma dreads again.

 

The second game was about the same but were equiped with H bolter/missile vs Orcs within turn 3 both were dead from HTH by power claws I think 200 points would of been better spent on 9.5 Zerkers.

 

Anyway tried them again and they still just dont make good tactical sence. I play in a mature club where people have a tendancy to be good players and will punish any weakness in your Army lines and I see Dreads as a huge weakness still.

 

Today is the Day my two Chaos Dreads get converted to Imperial Fist Ironclads.

 

Artangel

 

IMO, dreads w/o a DCCW become more of a tar-pit than a genuine threat. My friend plays imperial fists and uses a dread equipped with 2 TL autocannons. Once he gets into CC with that thing, he's pretty much stuck there for the rest of the game.

 

Close combat is where a dread should be anyways. It is the one advantage they have over regular vehicles. They get locked in combat, they are pretty much invincible against regular close combat weapons. Grenades rarely hit (although those pesky meltabombs always seems to stick to my defiler...). Powerfists will only do serious damage 1/3 of the time when they hit. (although that number changes depending on what charges you).

 

If you are using dread without DCCW, you are better off spending those points on obliterators, predator or vindi. Why? b/c if you go crazy good, its not as threatening. You'll run forward real fast, then get stuck in CC where your long range weapons are stuck for the rest of the game. If you go crazy bad, you are shooting more heavy weapons that are likely to be aimed at your own troops.

 

Ok, on to another topic... Anyone try using a defiler as a dread buddy? Defilers can keep up with a dread if they rage (fleet), they have the same armor, they have that sexy Battle cannon, the TL heavy flamer spells doom for anything that isnt MEQ. They are also more likely to be shot at, leaving your dread pretty much unharmed until the pair get close enough to charge.

 

Only drawback is that they are 50 pts more, but they are more useful vs a Plasma cannon/ML dread. (IMO)

[minigun762]

IMO, dreads w/o a DCCW become more of a tar-pit than a genuine threat. My friend plays imperial fists and uses a dread equipped with 2 TL autocannons. Once he gets into CC with that thing, he's pretty much stuck there for the rest of the game.

 

Close combat is where a dread should be anyways. It is the one advantage they have over regular vehicles. They get locked in combat, they are pretty much invincible against regular close combat weapons. Grenades rarely hit (although those pesky meltabombs always seems to stick to my defiler...). Powerfists will only do serious damage 1/3 of the time when they hit. (although that number changes depending on what charges you).

 

If you are using dread without DCCW, you are better off spending those points on obliterators, predator or vindi. Why? b/c if you go crazy good, its not as threatening. You'll run forward real fast, then get stuck in CC where your long range weapons are stuck for the rest of the game. If you go crazy bad, you are shooting more heavy weapons that are likely to be aimed at your own troops.

 

Ok, on to another topic... Anyone try using a defiler as a dread buddy? Defilers can keep up with a dread if they rage (fleet), they have the same armor, they have that sexy Battle cannon, the TL heavy flamer spells doom for anything that isnt MEQ. They are also more likely to be shot at, leaving your dread pretty much unharmed until the pair get close enough to charge.

 

Only drawback is that they are 50 pts more, but they are more useful vs a Plasma cannon/ML dread. (IMO)

 

I agree that Chaos Dreads need atleast 1 DCCW. Loyalists might be able to get away with dual Heavy weapons, especially since they don't have Obliterators as mobile heavy weapon platforms, but because of the Blood Rage, our Dreads need a DCCW.

 

What I'm torn about is whether or not a ranged weapon is worth it. On one hand they give you something to do as you're closing in on the enemy and they can be useful if you get immobilized. On the other if you aren't shooting your weapon you could be running and only having TL Bolters isn't much of a concern for Fire Frenzy.

 

I use to think that the Plasma Cannon was a good choice, as its only one of two ways we can field them, but I think its still too dangerous. That leaves the TL Heavy Bolter and Missile Launcher as the most viable ranged weapon choices.

The Heavy Bolter is a nice all around gun and it can't hurt another Dreadnought/Defiler's Front/Side armor, but I'm not sure if its worth an attack. The Missile Launcher is probably the best choice because you can use frags on another Dread/Defiler or Rhino and no do anything or fire off some Kraks if you're lucky enough to get Fire Frenzy on the enemy.

 

Having said all that, I'm leaning towards the 2x DCCW now. Its cheap and kinda scary for the opponent. If they kill it, meh I'm out 100 points. If they don't and it gets to something, 4/5 S10 attacks will take their toll.

[Lord Doyok]

And what is visible? What it can see. And what it can see is what is in its fire arc, as for vehicles what they can see is what is in their fire arc.

Sorry guys, but i had to argue on this.

So in case of my Vindicator (according to your interpretation of vehicle LOS), units visible to it is restricted to its Demolisher Cannon's firing arc isn't it? That sounds superbly illogical since it uses the same chasis of a Pred (which due to its main turret, has 360 view). So in order to counter this (i don't want my Vindicator to be so narrowsighted), i buy a twinlinked bolter for my Vindi and.. holycow!! My Vindi now has 360 view??!!!

 

Tank Sargeant : Damn where the hell is the enemy? I can't see it through the cannon.

Tank Crew : I told you but you didn't listen. We should have installed that bolter!!

 

Sound stupid isn't it?

 

Back on topic.. This Buddy sistem is the way for Chaos dread. My WE use 2 Dreads with Dual DCCW once in a while. People tends to ignore them untill it's too late. Best against Nobz and Termies. The best charge was against a pack of blood claws. 3+ to hit is just so rare fore dreads. :blink:

[Drudge Dreadnought]

And what is visible? What it can see. And what it can see is what is in its fire arc, as for vehicles what they can see is what is in their fire arc.

Sorry guys, but i had to argue on this.

So in case of my Vindicator (according to your interpretation of vehicle LOS), units visible to it is restricted to its Demolisher Cannon's firing arc isn't it? That sounds superbly illogical since it uses the same chasis of a Pred (which due to its main turret, has 360 view). So in order to counter this (i don't want my Vindicator to be so narrowsighted), i buy a twinlinked bolter for my Vindi and.. holycow!! My Vindi now has 360 view??!!!

 

Tank Sargeant : Damn where the hell is the enemy? I can't see it through the cannon.

Tank Crew : I told you but you didn't listen. We should have installed that bolter!!

 

Sound stupid isn't it?

 

Back on topic.. This Buddy sistem is the way for Chaos dread. My WE use 2 Dreads with Dual DCCW once in a while. People tends to ignore them untill it's too late. Best against Nobz and Termies. The best charge was against a pack of blood claws. 3+ to hit is just so rare fore dreads. :D

 

Rule systems do not equal reality. You could come up with equally ridiculous fluff scenarios for tons of rules in the book. Plus, the vindicators actual LOS is never relevent unless you are shooting it at something, and then it makes perfect sense that your cannon can only shoot inside its arc.