Chaos Dreadnoughts

[intel31337]

Rule systems do not equal reality. You could come up with equally ridiculous fluff scenarios for tons of rules in the book. Plus, the vindicators actual LOS is never relevent unless you are shooting it at something, and then it makes perfect sense that your cannon can only shoot inside its arc.

 

Yes! LOS of the vehicle itself (ie vindicator) is irrelevant! The only thing that is important is the weapons firing arc (demolisher cannon on the vindicator).

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Rule systems do not equal reality. You could come up with equally ridiculous fluff scenarios for tons of rules in the book. Plus, the vindicators actual LOS is never relevent unless you are shooting it at something, and then it makes perfect sense that your cannon can only shoot inside its arc.

 

Yes! LOS of the vehicle itself (ie vindicator) is irrelevant! The only thing that is important is the weapons firing arc (demolisher cannon on the vindicator).

 

Not when what you are shooting is determined by what is in your LOS. Have you read any of my posts?

[Mutt-Man!]

I just had a realization.

 

What if the enemy relies on your dreadnought to goof up a lot. I mean, he's the unreliable stepchild that people forget the fact they can chop apart a land raider that gets too close.

 

I like the idea of having a goof-off in my old Dragon Warrior 3 using the Noh-Mask put in party slot#1 of 4. (basicly a sacrifice to the mask's curse, but has no ability to hurt me or the enemy, a superior hit taker then a soldier in the game) And that help me beat the game faster then normal.

 

Sparing 200 points for 2 dreads that spit a few bolter shots when cow-tipped is good for a laugh. Then when the smile dissapears when his 9 pentient engines fall over, well thats a different story. (That really happened)

 

There are no bad units in the chaos codex, its just full of really good ones.

[intel31337]

Not when what you are shooting is determined by what is in your LOS. Have you read any of my posts?

 

When is say weapons firing arc, I meant the weapons LOS... Same difference. I'm agreeing with you. You never take LOS of the vehicle itself (ie you don't use the drive window as a reference to LOS) always of the weapon (ie the end of the barrel)

[Lord Doyok]

There's nothing else i can say. As long as you are in agreement with your opponent, that is all that matter.

 

In my place, we play as i mentioned. But that doesn't deter me from using my Dreads. They are fun units to be had :lol:. Good laughs for both players. Mutt-man was right --> There are no bad units in the chaos codex, its just full of really good ones.

[Captain Idaho]

There's nothing else i can say. As long as you are in agreement with your opponent, that is all that matter.

 

There's no need.

 

It says in the rule book that a walker has a 45 degree fire arc on it's weapons, but the walker can pivot to fire at it's target in the shooting phase. Combine this with the rules in the Chaos Codex, which tell us to pivot the Dread towards the closest visible target. So the pivot comes after the check for visibility in this case. Therefore a Chaos Dreadnought first checks to see visible targets in it's 45 degree fire arc when in fire frenzy, then pivots on the spot to face them (potentially exposing it's rear, but only marginally a risk due to the 45 degree fire arc).

 

The order is clearly set out, and I don't get the debate about it is? I understand there may be confusion between visibility and fire arcs, but bear in mind there are no rules for visibility on vehicles, on through fire arcs.

 

And I'm a loyalist player and I still support Chaos Dreads! So it's the same as it has always been with them, stick them to the front where they can see their opponents only and you are fine. Fitting for their character too, leading an attack.

[Cale]

Just like infantry, vehicles need to be able to draw a line of sight to their targets in order to shoot at them. When firing a vehicle's weapons, point them against the target and then trace the line of sight from each weapons' mounting and along its barrel, to see if the shot is blocked by terrain or models.

 

That's from the BRB.

 

You can't protect your own models by putting them behind the dreadnought. When checking line of sight, the dreadnought will rotate first, then sight down his barrel. That's the way it's done, as clearly described by this, the only rule which is relavent to the question at all.

 

Chaos Dreadnoughts are basically bad units. Defilers are similar, but better in just about every way--and only a little more expensive.

[teh_perfesser]

I was going to quote the same Cale, but I think a few here will still argue that "light of sight" is not the same a visibility.

 

If someone is moving a Dread up the table shuffling sideways to avoid a rule and doesn't see something rediculous with it, there is nothing that can be said to them.

[Captain Idaho]

Just like infantry, vehicles need to be able to draw a line of sight to their targets in order to shoot at them. When firing a vehicle's weapons, point them against the target and then trace the line of sight from each weapons' mounting and along its barrel, to see if the shot is blocked by terrain or models.

 

That's from the BRB.

 

You can't protect your own models by putting them behind the dreadnought. When checking line of sight, the dreadnought will rotate first, then sight down his barrel. That's the way it's done, as clearly described by this, the only rule which is relavent to the question at all.

 

Chaos Dreadnoughts are basically bad units. Defilers are similar, but better in just about every way--and only a little more expensive.

 

No way man, it doesn't state they rotate first to see the unit they are firing at, it states clearly enough that they pivot to face the nearest visible unit. This means the unit must first be visible, then the Dreadnought needs to pivot towards it. This is the requirements of the Fire Frenzy rule.

 

If someone is moving a Dread up the table shuffling sideways to avoid a rule and doesn't see something rediculous with it, there is nothing that can be said to them.

 

If an opponent did that to me, I wouldn't mind at all! Just easier to shoot the rear armour!

[Cale]

No way man, it doesn't state they rotate first to see the unit they are firing at, it states clearly enough that they pivot to face the nearest visible unit. This means the unit must first be visible, then the Dreadnought needs to pivot towards it. This is the requirements of the Fire Frenzy rule.

 

But you can't check visibility without pivoting--that's what the line in the rulebook says. Vehicles never draw line of sight except from their weapon mounts, down the barrels of their weapons. Dreadnoughts are no different, but they do, specifically, pivot first.

 

If you want to play it the way you're suggesting, then nothing is visible to the dreadnought at all until it declares a target. Only after declaring a target do you check line of sight, after all, since you must point the dreadnought's weapons at its target in order to do so.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Just like infantry, vehicles need to be able to draw a line of sight to their targets in order to shoot at them. When firing a vehicle's weapons, point them against the target and then trace the line of sight from each weapons' mounting and along its barrel, to see if the shot is blocked by terrain or models.

 

That's from the BRB.

 

You can't protect your own models by putting them behind the dreadnought. When checking line of sight, the dreadnought will rotate first, then sight down his barrel. That's the way it's done, as clearly described by this, the only rule which is relavent to the question at all.

 

Chaos Dreadnoughts are basically bad units. Defilers are similar, but better in just about every way--and only a little more expensive.

 

Okay i'll repeat this once again because people keep ignoring it and nobody has addressed it. You say you rotate first, but how do you know what to rotate towards? That rule is for when players are declaring a target. This is why fire frenzy is a seperate rule. You have to have a target to pivot towards before you can pivot towards your target! And that target is the nearest one that can be seen by the dreadnought.

[Night Stalker]

Drudge Dreadnought post seems more logical than yours, Cale. First, choose nearest visible target, then pivot.

 

So i played incorrectly ... sigh.

[Cale]

And that target is the nearest one that can be seen by the dreadnought.

 

Until the dreadnought pivots, he can't see anyone except those models at which his guns are already pointed directly.

 

So, Fire Frenzied dreadnoughts pretty much never shoot at anyone?

[Drudge Dreadnought]

And that target is the nearest one that can be seen by the dreadnought.

 

Until the dreadnought pivots, he can't see anyone except those models at which his guns are already pointed directly.

 

So, Fire Frenzied dreadnoughts pretty much never shoot at anyone?

 

No, they see what is in a 45 degree arc of each weapon. And since that overlaps pretty quickly, they can see just about everything in front of them.

[Psyan 2]

Pivot, smivot. Call it a gray area and reach an agreement with your opponent before the game, or talk it over with the TO, if you're inclined to play tournaments. You guys are giving me a headache.

 

I really like a lot of this thread; I reached some similar conclusions of my own accord, as you'll see if you check out the list I just posted in the lists section. I used to always want only dual DCCW dreads with Heavy Flamers.. but I've recently converted to using the missile launchers for several reasons. 1) They're free! 2) It's only -1 attack for a weapon that can shoot a hole in a tank. Noice! 3) There are going to be times when you get shot up before you make it to assault.. the ML allows you to take a few targets with you. 4) It makes the Dread more of a threat at range and makes it harder for the opponent to choose a target. I like putting them in the "damned if I do, damned if I don't" position where they have to choose to either shoot the Dreads, or the fleeting Defiler, or the two DPs, or the multiple Rhinos full of angry Berserkers. No matter what they shoot, they're going to get assaulted and it's going to hurt.