[Daemon review] Fast Attack.

[Captain Malachi]

Right, we're done with troops now, so let's get cracking with the fast attack. If I remember my codex right it's flesh hounds first.

[Raptor1313]

Might as well go with Flesh Hounds...

 

I'm not really a fan.

 

Flesh Hounds, as Beasts, are meant to tie up the enemy. They drop in, they run. Next turn they move, run, and get a 12" charge off.

 

They're basically bloodletters that traded off power weapons for more movement, and a 1pt price cut.

 

I think they need to be taken in numbers to last as delying units. I think you need like 10-15 to really last against shooting and CC losses, and you probably need to commit to taking Karanak and Fury of Khorne in one unit to have any kind of damage-dealing potential. Massed attacks isn't BAD vs. hordes, but....10 hounds is 150 points. 195 if you want Karanak and another rending puppy.

 

Also, no grenades. Lack of grenades is a BAD THING for CC units.

 

I think they're too expensive for what they do.

 

Though, for the record, I've not got a lot of use for most of the Fast Attack section...

[I AM THE AWESOME]

Flesh Hounds. They're essentially Bloodletters, but different. They trade power weapons for being beasts. What this means is that they can hit the weaker units in the opponent's list, but they won't hit nearly as hard when they get there. A five man Hound unit will still have 15 WS4 S5 I5 attacks on the charge, which can mess with the enemy. But, like Bloodletters, they need to be in greater numbers to have much effect. A good unit if you play against Eldar, Dark Eldar, or IG, but Bloodletters generally outperform them. It comes down to a matter of taste, really.

 

It's also nice to note that these guys are basically immune to psychic-based wounds.

 

Karanak is an interesting upgrade. He definitely makes the unit hittier, packing an extra 4 WS5 S6 rending attacks on the charge. This gives the unit a pinch - only a pinch, mind you - of deadliness against Dreadnoughts and their ilk. Also, he lets your squad get where it needs to go faster, as Flesh Hounds should always be in cover in the first place. However, he's 35 points and is no tougher to kill than a regular Flesh Hound. A hit-or-miss character upgrade.

[minigun762]

Ok Flesh Hounds

Pros: They're Fast with a great movement/charge range, that also helps their 2nd benefit, which is Furious Charge. S5 I5 means you're going to hit hard and hit fast, more then enough to make up for no Power Weapons against light infantry.

Hell you can even bust open most tanks by hitting rear AV10 armor that way. They also have Blessing which can be helpful against some units.

Con: Kinda expensive, about the same as a Bloodletter but you're trading speed for Power Weapons and Scoring which means you shouldn't really spam them. The lack of Power Weapons hurts them against MEQs and especially Terminators, however this is partially mitigated if they can get the charge in.

Use: Really simple I'd say, they work best as a method to tie up squads, either to stop them from shooting or to hold them in place for your Bloodletters/BloodCrushers to come finish the job. If I used them, I think targeting squads like Devastators and Lootas would be my first priority as they aren't usually that tough in close combat and they're such good shooters.

[Raptor1313]

@I Am the Awesome

While immunity to psychic wounds is nice, I only really see that coming into play if they're hunting librarians or chaos sorcerers. Force weapons aren't that common, and most of the psychic powers I worry about don't cause wounds directly. (Lash, Doom, Guide...to name a few). Blessing of the Blood God gets in on Bloodthirsters because it's cheap, but I don't see it doing a lot for these guys.

 

I just gotta compare 'em to Hormagaunts, to be honest. Same speed, slightly better offensively, but 1.5 times the cost. Not scoring.

 

I guess in terms of killing things, they're not bad against vehicles on the charge, if you can get vehicles in on the charge. (~10 of 'em surviving ot charge if you brought enough, 30 attacks, at least 15 hits, S5 vs. av10 means 1/6 pen and 1/6 glance, so a couple pens and a couple glances...not SHABBY. Not AWESOME, but it's at least a possibility. Also possible to glance the crap out of it and do nothing.).

 

Not TOO BAD vs. stuff, as ~10 of them = 30 attacks, probably hit on 3's, so 20 hits, probably wound on 3's, so probably 13.33 wounds. Too bad there are armor saves involved. They're apt enough for killing T3, 4+ save guys, but against anything with an armor save? Not so much.

 

Problem with wiping out a squad of guardsmen or easy melee targets is that then you're open to fire in the next turn. If they last longer against, say, a tougher target (IE: Crisis suits, a tactical squad) then you can hold the target in place and get backup there.

[Vassakov]

I can't really see a point to these guys in a wider Daemon army. In mono Khorne, perhaps the speed is of use but frankly you'd be better converting some centaurian 'Letters and claiming they are Seekers or Fiends. They don't hit particularly hard, especially compared to most of the Daemon army and only really serve as a fast harry. Which is mostly migigated by the fact that you start by Deep Striking on the enemy.

 

Finally, and this is personal taste through and through, the models are (a) extortionately expensive and ( b ) hidieous.

[Evil Homer]

Tend to agree with most points, though I think they have a role in mono-khorn and not just for their speed. Their large number of attacks at decent strength means they are quite good against orks and other low save but killy opponents, gaunts too this essentially leaves your bloodletters to tackle the harder, slower targets. In mono-khorn they definitely provide some much needed speed.

 

Modelwise mine are the new fantasy warhouds with gs'd khorn details like brass collars and some scales/chainmail details. This makes them much more hobby friendly in the pricing department.

 

EH

[I AM THE AWESOME]

Tend to agree with most points, though I think they have a role in mono-khorn and not just for their speed. Their large number of attacks at decent strength means they are quite good against orks and other low save but killy opponents, gaunts too this essentially leaves your bloodletters to tackle the harder, slower targets. In mono-khorn they definitely provide some much needed speed.

 

Modelwise mine are the new fantasy warhouds with gs'd khorn details like brass collars and some scales/chainmail details. This makes them much more hobby friendly in the pricing department.

 

EH

 

 

I'd say using Flesh Hounds for anti-horde isn't an amazing idea. They're no better than Bloodletters, in fact, they're probably worse. Flesh Hounds are better for tying up hordes for a turn, or picking off weak elements in the opponent's army.

[Raptor1313]

Flesh hounds are better than blood letters vs. hordes ONLY in that they're more likely to get the charge off.

 

Still not nearly as killy as Bloodletters because they lack power weapons.

 

They're vaguely passable at taking out AV10 rear vehicles. If 10-12 of 'em hit a vehicle that moved 6", that's 18 S5 hits; 3 pens an 3 glances. Not bad, but they don't do much else aside from that.

[Captain Malachi]

Flesh hounds:

It really is all about target priority with these guys, much like most of the fast attack section. They won’t be able to take on genestealers and win, and they’ll probably overkill tau firewarriors. Their main use is to tie up nasty shooty units, thanks to their speed they can hopefully get in there fast and tie them up while the rest of your army comes down partially safe from enemy firepower. You just need to make sure you don’t kill them too fast or you’ll be left in the open to get shot to death.

 

They can be used against vehicles, strength five with quite a few attacks means you’ll probably get a couple of penetrating hits, and a few glances, but we have better options usually, so this is situational. The problem is they pay for blessing of the blood god even though they’ll rarely, if ever, use it, meaning they are generally slightly over costed for what you get. We find they’re best used in mono-Khorne armies as a type of tarpit unit that can actually do some damage when you need it to. Their main advantage is, obviously, their speed, since unlike bloodletters they have a decent chance of getting the charge. The lack of power weapons is their main downside.

 

How does that sound? It's a bit longer than normal actually, oh well.

 

Edit- Added a note on power weapons.

 

Further edit- I forgot Karanaks section, so I'm writing that now and will get it up when I've got some feedback on what we have.

[==Me==]

I'll largely agree with that. Khorne dogs are mostly around for tying enemies down while the real killy stuff gets in position. With lots of attacks and S5 they can do some damage, but lack of power weapons hurt. I consider Karanak mandatory for the unit, as move through cover allows you to keep them in cover and safer, allowing you to threaten enemies hiding behind or around cover. Plus, Karanak and another hound with Fury can give you a good number of rending attacks.

[Captain Malachi]

Here's Karries bit, goes on the end of the flesh hound section.

 

Karanak: With this guy in the unit, you get to move faster through cover, more rending attacks and an instrument that you can’t otherwise get. An instrument isn’t all that great, but rending attacks and move through cover are. Rending means you do more damage to vehicles (and infantry to a lesser extent), while move through cover lets you move faster through the cover you want to be in, since you want a cover save this is pretty good. When taking Karanak it’s usually better to take the fury of Khorne upgrade on another model to maximise rending abilities.

[Raptor1313]

I'll sign off on that. They're just not that great of units, but we've covered their capabilities.

 

I'd also agree that Karanak's the best wa to get speed and a little bit of actual damage potential.

[Meals]

Hey Guys, first post here, but I wanted to add an important point, for Flesh Hounds, actually all Fast Attack choices really.

 

Multiple Unit Charges: Using Beast speed, you charge Crushers/Letters etc into one unit to do all the damage then use the Fleshies to spread out and charge multiple units, using a large unit of them. The Crushers/Letters destroy one unit plus a few wounds from the Fleshies. I've found it a great way to destroy multiple Ork units in one turn if you're smart about it..

[Infidel]

Hey Meals

 

That's a smart way to go about it, but to be honest, if we want to do that then it's probably better to take the seekers.

 

My .02

 

The Flesh hounds is not worth their salt. They run fast and they hit....mildly. The lack of rending and power weapon mean that they'll have trouble killing MEQs or anything that has any decent save. In comparison to the other forces, they're probably sufficient to take out most stuff, but just that in our list there are better things suited for their task. If we want something that goes fast and hits hard, fiends, and blood hounds arnt even cheap.

[Raptor1313]

Gotta second Infidel on that.

 

Two hounds for 30, or a fiend for 30? Same wounds. Same speed. Pair of hound's good for 6 WS5, S5, I5 attacks on the charge. Fiend's good for 6 WS4, S5 attacks on the charge with rending.

 

I don't think it's a hard choice. It's not to say that, again, Fleshhounds are utter crap, but things do their job better elsewhere, and if they run up against anything with decent saves? No Retreat! will kick the pups.

[Seahawk]

I've lost flesh hounds against IG before...their lack of any punch really hurts the hounds.

[Captain Malachi]

Pretty much all of our fast attack is pretty lackluster unfortunately, a deep striking army just has little use for speed over power. Anyway, if there is anything you want me to change say so really clearly (I'm in one of those moods where if it isn't really clear I'll miss it).

 

In the meantime, seekers?

[minigun762]

I like Seekers personally, they're simply faster versions of Daemettes for a minor speed increase.

Just like Flesh Hounds they're best used against small shooting squads to tie them up or kill them outright. They are the light jab that sets up the heavy hook that is the rest of the Daemon army. Like Fleshhounds their movement also helps them hunt light vehicles as you throw enough rending attacks at something, it will fall. Not their main use, but it is always there.

[Vassakov]

Seekers ar better than Hounds. Reasonably powerful on the charge, they have enough rending attacks to do some damage. They are very fragile, but they can provide a nice distraction and tie things up well.

[==Me==]

Daemonettes with 12" charge range, so I'd consider that an upgrade. They still suffer from all the problems Daemonettes do: low T, low save, low S, bigger bases, and higher cost. All in all, if given the choice between the two I'll pick Seekers for the speed.

[Captain Malachi]

==Me==, they get +1 attack over daemonettes too, for three points I think that's pretty good. But like most of the fast attack section there are better choices elsewhere most of the time.

[minigun762]

==Me==, they get +1 attack over daemonettes too, for three points I think that's pretty good. But like most of the fast attack section there are better choices elsewhere most of the time.

 

yeah, in essence what you're doing is comparing 2 Seekers to 1 Fiend. I think for most people, they'd rather have the Fiend.

However if the rest of your army is filled with Bloodcrushers and Flamers, I do think Seekers are a viable alternative and they're probably the most well rounded of all the Fast Choices.

[Raptor1313]

Not feeling any love on Seekers.

 

Speed is nice, but two seekers are the same as a fiend, and the fiend has better strength to go with its massed rending. Plus, the fiend has hit 'n' run.

 

Otherwise, the others have said it: you get a Daemonette with an extra attack and a longer charge range. Unless you feel like you really need the speed and you've already filled up your elite choices, I see no real reason to take these.

 

Plus, at 17 a head, this is getting too expensive to spam. A unit of 10 costs 170. A unit of ten is not going to hit the enemy at full strength. They get wounded on 3+ or 2+ by just about everything, and get craptastic saves.

 

On top of that? No current models. You're e-bay hunting or doing some conversion work if you want to field Seekers, not that I would.

[Infidel]

Same argument for the hounds.

 

Seekers are better, but still.....

 

Inevitably, all the fast attack options will be compared to fiend, and when you get right down to it, except for screamer there is really no comparison.

 

Fiend is fast attack, and unless your elite slot had been filled there is no realistic reason to field seekers. I can understand hounds in a themed army, but that doesnt even work for the seeker.

 

So that's my reason for not taking them, let's see why WOULD any one take them.

 

Umm.....they're netts with an extra 6" assault and +1 attack. For a 3 point extra, i'd consider that to be a pretty decent upgrade.

 

Wait what? Netts are 14 points base? No, i really cant think of a reason why any one would take a seeker.

 

(EDIT)

I think, what will be appropriate is to give fiends Furious Charge and Hit'N'Run to the seekers. I think that will actually make the comparison interesting. That way seekers might just be worth taking.