[Daemon review] Fast Attack.

[==Me==]

==Me==, they get +1 attack over daemonettes too, for three points I think that's pretty good. But like most of the fast attack section there are better choices elsewhere most of the time.

 

Yep, must have glossed over that initially. Great upgrade over normal Daemonettes, but Fiends are better.

[Captain Malachi]

How's this?

 

Seekers of Slaanesh:

Essentially, beefed up daemonettes. For three extra points you get a 12” charge and an extra attack, but you lose scoring status. In many ways they’re similar to flesh hounds, except they rely on rending to do the damage. They can be used against vehicles, since all those rending attacks mean you’ll probably kill it outright. They’re also good for trying up or killing shooty squads that aren’t very good in melee.

 

However, like daemonettes, they have toughness three, meaning they die to just about any kind of firepower. It also means they will not make it in to combat full strength, so factor that in if you decide to take them. Also, like most of the fast attack section, they’re rather outperformed by the elites equivalent, fiends are generally better. The main problem is that a deep striking army just doesn’t need speed, which is what these gals really have going for them. If you like to drop further away, or your elites slots are used up though, these are a pretty solid choice for hitting power, just not for staying power. Try and stick to cover if you can.

[==Me==]

One thing Seekers do have over Fiends is grenades and +1I, it seems that would be fair to mention.

[Captain Malachi]

Heh, I've only just noticed fiends don't have grenades....shows how much I use them :P You're right though, I'll edit that in in the morning, it's midnight here so I'm going to bed.

[djkest]

Just skipping ahead a little bit, I'm going to have 3 screamers pretty soon, thinking this might be a "holy sh1t my vehicles" unit I could use to really mess with people- and it's cheap. Granted, best I can hope for most of the time is 3 attacks, hitting on 4s, (meltabombs), so average of 1.5 hits, but STR 8+2d6 is an autoglance against rear armor. Not effective against drednaughts, but good against lots of namby-pamby gun lines or immobile "indirect fire" artillery.

 

What say you? Or is 3 just so small it's bound to never accomplish anything.

[Infidel]

I guess that's all there is to be said about the Seeker tbh. So how about let's get on with screamers?

 

Melta Jetbike win.

 

If they so much as hit as vehicle, then it's st8 + 2d6 armour pen. Have trouble with LRCs or Mech IG? Send these uberfast tank hunters onto them. They kill just about anything that has an armour value and jetbike movement aint too shabby. Combined with Keepers and incredibly killy troops, if they so much as waste any shooting to take out the screamers, well...they make another 12" advance this turn and if they don't, the warpjaws is gonna take out any armour they carry.

[==Me==]

Yep, jetbike melta bombs aren't all that hard to figure out.

 

However, they are fairly soft, basically useless if your opponent has no vehicles, and are not going to be much help against vehicles moving at cruising speed or flat out (fast vehicles, Land Raiders, and the like) or walkers.

[djkest]

So, they are T4, and have a 4++, so really a heavy weapon can't be used to take them out, maybe an assault cannon, but anything w/ an assault cannon is going to waste the whole squad to shoot at them.

 

Jetbike movement- does this mean they can turbo boost? Does that give them a 3++ cover save?

 

I really think I might take a 3-screamer unit just to mess with people. 48 points- if it wastes a round of shooting, it's earned it's points. If it kills a rhino, earned it's points. Only way it wouldn't, is if they get assaulted and die, but even then, might set up a counter assault.

 

In an army that relies on Demon Princes, Greater Demons, and Soul Grinders to wreck vehicles in CC, and on Bolt of Tz or Tongue for anti-tank, this seems like a logical choice for multi-god armies.

 

On paper they don't look that interesting, but I think in practice they could really be something.

 

Also, I think they have a 12" move 6" assault correct? So 18" threat range for the meltabombs. And the turn before they can turbo-boost what- another 18"? I'll have to re-read the jetbike rules. Sounds like drop them behind cover, assault next turn, or drop them on your table edge, boost turn 2.

 

I think if you want a dedicated vehicle hunter unit, you could take 3 squads of 3 (barring other FA choices) or maybe go for some units of 5. Anyone use these consistently? I'd really like to hear how my theories pan out.

[minigun762]

I think they're at best a backup choice for anti-tank. Thanks to assaulting rear armor, most of our army is able to penetrate AV10 reliably, this means that its only Land Raiders/Monoliths/Walkers that really give us any worry but Screamers will be almost useless against Walkers (assuming they still only hit on 6's) and semi-useful against static Land Raiders.

 

As far as killing them, like most of Daemons what they fear is basic Dakka, it takes 6 Bolter shots to kill one on average, so a squad should be able to dakka down 1-2 each turn.

[I AM THE AWESOME]

I think they're at best a backup choice for anti-tank. Thanks to assaulting rear armor, most of our army is able to penetrate AV10 reliably, this means that its only Land Raiders/Monoliths/Walkers that really give us any worry but Screamers will be almost useless against Walkers (assuming they still only hit on 6's) and semi-useful against static Land Raiders.

 

As far as killing them, like most of Daemons what they fear is basic Dakka, it takes 6 Bolter shots to kill one on average, so a squad should be able to dakka down 1-2 each turn.

 

It takes 3 bolter shots. Screamers have one wound.

[minigun762]

I think they're at best a backup choice for anti-tank. Thanks to assaulting rear armor, most of our army is able to penetrate AV10 reliably, this means that its only Land Raiders/Monoliths/Walkers that really give us any worry but Screamers will be almost useless against Walkers (assuming they still only hit on 6's) and semi-useful against static Land Raiders.

 

As far as killing them, like most of Daemons what they fear is basic Dakka, it takes 6 Bolter shots to kill one on average, so a squad should be able to dakka down 1-2 each turn.

 

It takes 3 bolter shots. Screamers have one wound.

 

You sure? I thought they were T4 with a 4++

Thats 6 shots, 4 hits, 2 wounds, 1 dead

[I AM THE AWESOME]

I think they're at best a backup choice for anti-tank. Thanks to assaulting rear armor, most of our army is able to penetrate AV10 reliably, this means that its only Land Raiders/Monoliths/Walkers that really give us any worry but Screamers will be almost useless against Walkers (assuming they still only hit on 6's) and semi-useful against static Land Raiders.

 

As far as killing them, like most of Daemons what they fear is basic Dakka, it takes 6 Bolter shots to kill one on average, so a squad should be able to dakka down 1-2 each turn.

 

It takes 3 bolter shots. Screamers have one wound.

 

You sure? I thought they were T4 with a 4++

Thats 6 shots, 4 hits, 2 wounds, 1 dead

 

Whoa. Brain fart.

[Captain Malachi]

Ok so I got a little carried away, but oh well we'll get over it.

 

Screamers of Tzeentch:

A very hit or miss unit, their usefulness really depends on your opponents strategy. If your opponent likes to go all mechanised and run around the board a lot, they’ll do next to nothing. But, if your opponent likes to have a few tanks in the back giving fire support, then you’ll be very glad you brought them along. They’re fast, so you’ll be able to get to those tanks easily, and they have melta-bombs, so as long as they haven’t moved too far you should take it out (hitting the rear armour is a true blessing).

 

This is why they aren’t very good at taking down mobile armies though, they just don’t have enough attacks to kill fast moving vehicles, unless you take a lot which isn’t generally a good idea. However, if you go after the right targets they’re worth their weight in gold, even if the other guy decides to move away rather than stay and die, you’ve still stopped it from shooting. They can be fast too, they’re jet bikes so they can turbo-boost, so even if that tank does move it’s going down soon enough. The main problem is, they’re pretty fragile so try and keep them away from enemy firepower. I’m aware that isn’t easy when you’re hunting tanks, but keep it in mind. Also remember, they have next to no use against anything other than tanks, so if the other guy has none, just keep them out of sight, or maybe use them to contest an objective late in the game.

 

Oh and I've edited the seekers section slightly to mention the grenades and initiative bonus over fiends.

[Raptor1313]

I think the other real role Screamers have is as a charge-screen. If you're bringing them in a shootier Tzeentch list, then they can boost in front of your guys, and potentially keep the enemy from charging at you. T4, 3+ cover save isn't that bad, but still killable.

 

Otherwise, I pretty much agree. They're mono-tasked. If tanks move? Meltabombs don't do much. Most of our units can handle AV10 rear in assault, if it comes to that. If the enemy has no tanks, you've wasted the unit. If it's in the back and static? You make him sweat. If it's a walker? Doesn't help against it.

 

I'd rather take units that are more likely to be reliably useful against targets, than spend points on Seekers.

[Rahveel]

ive used a unit of 3 screamers in every game so far with my mono TZ. their kill count is currently at 1 rhino. however, i find the threat of them can take the preassure off of the rest of my army a bit. in my most recent game i bumped them up to 5, and ran them as extra wounds for the blue scribes. cheaper than flamers for this role, and I dont really feel like they were wasted points.

[Captain Malachi]

Raptor: I added this to the end:

Note- They can also be used as a charge screen. This is a good tactic if you’re playing an objective based mission and have no enemy tanks to kill. Just send them out in front of a more valuable unit and give them a cover save. The screamers themselves likely won’t last long, but the unit behind them will get to combat in a stronger form than they would have otherwise.

That what you meant?

[djkest]

Just imagine throwing some turbo-boosting screamers in front of your pink horrors or flamers for protection. If they don't die from shooting, they could block off the unit, your next turn the screened unit can move back and still fire it's assault weapons. That could be useful to keep your pink horrors or flamers out of combat.

[Captain Malachi]

No more thoughts on screamers? In that case can we move on to furies?

[==Me==]

Screamers look fine.

 

Furies aren't going to kill anything, but they're fast and cheap. They make for an excellent tie down unit, keeping the enemy from shooting or running away while your real killers close. For fun, 2 BTs and a boat load of Furies will close suprisingly quickly.

[I AM THE AWESOME]

IMO, Furies are a lot like Assault Marines, but worse.

 

For the extra 3 points, you lose the 5++ and Fearless, gain all those nifty special rules and equipment, and a good few stat buffs.

 

Still, they're like Assault Marines. They're a good fast unit which would, in almost any other army, be twenty times better. But the fact is, the best role for them (counter-charging) generally doesn't work because after our boys are done, there's nothing left TO counter-charge.

 

Honestly, my favorite Fast Attack unit.

[minigun762]

Honestly, my favorite Fast Attack unit.

See I think they're the worst choice.

 

They're the same cost as Flesh Hounds but inferior in everything other then Jump vs Beast.

They're slightly cheaper then Seekers or Screamers, but again inferior.

 

I don't see a good role from them as they're too expensive for a tarpit unit. Maybe if they cost 10-12 points...

[Captain Malachi]

I'm gonna have to go with Minigun here, for a while I thought the speed might be useful, but the simple fact is a deepstriking army just doesn't need the speed as much as other armies would. I imagine in certain situations they'd be just what you need, but for an all comers list they just don't have a place.

[Raptor1313]

Regarding the Screamers:

Yeah, that's pretty much what I meant, Mal. I mean, you gotta get them out of the way before you charge the other stuff, and that can mean the difference between charging and getting charged. Plus, tthey're a cover save if you happen to need it.

 

On Furies...

When you DO need the speed, Furies will do it. The speed also helps you corral faster enemies. Honestly, I'd only ever run them as buddies for a Bloodthirster. They make it harder to get away from your forces, but that's it.

 

In general, I tend to skip the Fast Attack section, though. I think we've all seen that it's a bit 'eh', and you can get better stuff elsewhere. The only thing that really stands out is that you can get Jump Troops here. Too bad they're WS3.

[==Me==]

If Furies kept their stats from the old CSM book I'd love to include some, but they got nerfed hard.

[Infidel]

If Furies kept their stats from the old CSM book I'd love to include some, but they got nerfed hard.

Second that