Pacific81 Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 My 2, far-fetched cents: It would make a LOT of sense if the 2 legion had fallen to Chaos. On Horus Rising becomes quite clear that the Emperor know about the Chaos Gods, but he hides it even from the primarchs - he speaks about extraplanar creatures, but nothing near the true nature of the Chaos Gods as we know in 40k. In the words of Rindaris... We also know they did not fight other legions or dissolve into civil war within their own Legion. How do we know this? Because until the Heresy all the marines present the thought that Astartes fighting Astartes is unthinkable. Obviously if it had happened before it wouldn't be unthinkable. This is made extremely clear within both Horus Rising and False Gods. A second idea, based on the references about "exactly half" of the legions turned to Chaos, that only one Legion followed the fate I described above, and the other died slaughtered/facing that Legion - that would fit with the theories about Dark Angels and Emperor's Children: 2) Legion B is sent by the Emperor to destroy them, but is destroyed instead; 3) Emperor's Children almost fall victim of the Legion A (that's why their number became so thin that they are united to the Luna Wolves)... Well, there is nothing within the information that might suggest this. We already know it is unthinkable prior to the events of the Heresy for one marine to fight another, so this is almost certainly not responsible for the EC almost being wiped out near to their inception. 4) ... but are saved by the Dark Angels (which takes much of the time of the DA participation in the Crusade)5) the records of Legion A purging by DA are deleted, to keep the cover up - and DAs deals with a lot of secrecy about that, guarding a secret that the Emperor himself asked them to protect. Ibid.. The new information within Call of the Lion, corroborating that of Angels of Darkness, where by the DA Primarch is suddenly looking very suspect, means that the DA already have a big enough skeleton in their closet. The comments of Astelan within Call of the Lion also put a tremendous amount of faith in the Emperor and the Great Crusade. I don't think he would be so adamant about this if the legion had secretly been asked to wipe out a traitor legion so close to the beginning of the Crusade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verythrax Draconis Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Brother fighting brother is unthinkable before the heresy the same way the existance of the Chaos Gods is unthinkable at the same time frame :) Maybe that's why all the records where deleted - cause it was so unthinkable to be made public - but only later, much later, the Horus Heresy made this possibility public. Only characters say how absurd is the concept of treachery in the astartes legions. It's just a opinion, how the characters see the universe around them, it's not a truth set in stone. That's why maybe the Heresy struck the Imperium so hard. Since the fact of the very first treason was kept secret, nobody was prepared for the possibility. I don't know much about DA background, so bear with me: but anyway they could be involved with the fact in some other way, with part of the Legion involved with the Legion A, with could be the "skeleton in the closet" and deserved to be deleted from the annals of the Imperium together with the same source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheepy Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 I have a theory about one of the primarchs..... The Grey Knights..... It makes sense even amoung the astartes they are unknown and unlike the astartes (which most imperial citizians have atleast heard of) no one has heard of them and theres no records about there primarch and where there geneseed came from Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castlerook Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Grey Knights were set up after the Heresy when the Imperium realised it needed a dedicated Daemon fighting force (as concise as I could make it). And the same goes for the Legion of the Damned. Or the Doom Legion, Blood Legion, Legion of the Night, Mantis Legion, Mentor Legion, Red Legion, Raptor Legion or the French Foreign Legion. And not to mention the Custodes. The Grey Knights use geneseed derieved from the Emperor himself, and are not well mentioned in the Imperium, because if you told the average Imperial citizen that there were Daemon Hunters running around, you'd also have to admit that there were Daemons powered by emotion getting ready to eat their brains. Regardless of what we think about Chaos in 40k, the average citizens don't know what we know. Most likely explaination for the missing legions in my opinion is.....The Emperor messed up. When developing the Primarchs and the Geneseed needed to create Space Marines, there could be a high chance that the geneseed started to break down resulting in mutation. We know that mutations could occur in the Primarchs, Magnus and Sanguinius being the most extreme examples, so it is feasible that the two missing Primarchs could have suffered catastrophic genetic failure. Or that the damage to their respective legions could have been too great to repair, much like the disaster that befell the Emperor's Children. Either that or both Primarchs finished "Baby's first trip through the Warp" and exited near black holes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dyp100 Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 It has already been sad the GKs were made after the HH...A thousand times. The only debate for the GKs is "did there gene seed come from Garro?", and that's an argument for another topic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skirax Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 The Null Primarch you say had a cracked tank...nonono, Horus MADE the crack. And, as stated above, you have no fluff stuff. Gather your info first, then make up some stuff. It's like going into wat without a gun full of ammo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Child-of-the-Emperor Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 I think that a Null Primarch is a great idea but think how unpleasant it would be to have a Legion full of null marines running around. Remember though that not all of the legion would be Nulls, only some. Same as not all of the Thousand Sons were psykers :cuss But yea i think a null primarch is a nice theory, Not the invisible one though, someone being naturally invisible is impossible! Also if the Primarchs were created directly from the Emperors DNA, we know the Emperor wasnt a null, so is there actually a chance one of the primarchs could have been? :) The Null Primarch you say had a cracked tank...nonono, Horus MADE the crack. That was of course just a vision :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damael Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 In regards to Astartes fighting Astartes being unthinkable and unheard of, if the Emperor needed to destroy a legion or two, he could always have used the Custodes in secret. However, were the two missing legions really destroyed? Eliminating two whole legions and their Primarchs would be an epic task requiring obscene amounts of resources and manpower. I'm not convinced that they no longer exist. Who really knows if Dorn (or any other Primarch) had ever encountered them or knew the truth about them? If the Emperor kept the true nature of Chaos a secret even from the Primarchs, then who's to say he didn't lie to them about the fate of the missing legions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuh Tathor Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 Well we'll never know for sure. My bet would be that either two legions were placed in some kind of reserve stasis. More likely two primarchs and/or their legion did accept the Emperor as their master (fore shadowing the heresy) and something was done to them such as being sent far out of the Imperium or to acceopt some worse fate. This was they can meet the Emperor, legions can join their Primarchs. Legions can fight in the unification all before deciding that it was all bunk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardune Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Well, there's this passage in Mechanicum (pg. 329) where Dorn is talking to Malcador. "...Horus has three of his brother legions with him, you have your fists and thirteen others." "Would that it were fifteen," mused Dorn. "Do not even think it, my friend," warned Malcador. "They are lost to us forever." "I know," said Dorn, "and you are right..." This leads me to believe that the Legions were simply declared excommunicate and that they existed at the time of heresy. Maybe they were xenos sympathizers or something? Maybe the two primarchs either landed amongst xenos or later came to commune with them. It makes sense considering I honestly doubt the Eldar would have been so absent during the time of the primarch's scattering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 A null Primarch would most certainly be purged. He literally give the Emperor a headache! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelastonestanding Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 Well, there's this passage in Mechanicum (pg. 329) where Dorn is talking to Malcador. "...Horus has three of his brother legions with him, you have your fists and thirteen others." "Would that it were fifteen," mused Dorn. "Do not even think it, my friend," warned Malcador. "They are lost to us forever." "I know," said Dorn, "and you are right..." "Do not even think it" brings me to believe that the 2 missing legions are held in some kind of stasis due to corruption of the mind or body. It seems that Dorn considers releasing them to help in the coming battle but is persuaded not to by Malcador. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 That seems like a bit of a jump. He could just as easily (probably more easily) be saying "Don't dwell on what you can not change, they are gone." Not that they are still around in stasis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gil galed Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 Why would they be invisible? it's a completely random idea? they are all part of the emperors personality? it would be more fluff based to say that one of them immolated when fighintg a la flame falcons Null might be possible, i advocate rise of the tau Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Mike Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 Invisible Primarch is highly unlikely, at least not as a personal trait. An affiliation with invisibilty projectors maybe. Null maybe. Seems good on this concept of having opposites. White Scars and Nightlords. Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors. Ultramarines and Sons of Horus etc. Thousand Sons and Null Brothers would seem cool. A little theory, just to add. 'They are lost to us, forever'. Maybe they are not dead, or destroyed. Maybe they are lost in the Eye of Terror, or have stepped beyond the fringe of the Milky Way. All in all, I bet one of the lost legions painted their armour orange, or brown... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lee265 Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 I like the idea of a Null Primarch, but the problem is "Where are you going to find a Legions worth of Blanks". Before and during the Great Crusade, there weren't a million worlds in the Imperium, not to mention that while a lot of worlds populations do have the genetic markers to produce one or two Blanks per several billion, a lot of Blanks produce such an aura of unease and unnaturalness in their parents that many are killed at birth, or soon after. I can't imagine that the Emperor would be able to be in the same room as one, let alone create a legion of Nulls. Just the sheer difficulty of finding 5000+ Blanks would mean that creating a Legion like that would be impossible. Simple fluff marines often pick up traits from there geneseed also if he was a null he landed on a planet of nulls most likely. Also Not all have to be null. It would also explain why that legion was destroyed, the null effect became too strong and eventually the emperor grew to hate the null primarch due to the effect and had to destroy him and his legion. Sorry, but I don't think so. Dorn say the unknown two could have been a warning about the Heresy. It would have taken more then just the Emperor to take down a Legion, especially if it was filled with Blanks. He would have needed the help of another Legion and then that puts in the whole idea of brother vs brother, which was unthinkable before the Heresy. Now the idea of the Primarch himself being a Null, its possible. The Blankness that creates unease would likely have been partially countered by the Primarch nature and this Primarch might have seemed more like an average Joe rather then a walking god like Horus and the others. Emperor Bob could have had his help its simple they were the first two Primarchs found before even Horus was found and it is stated he was one of the first. One of them turned to chaos and killed the other outright and the remaninder of the dead Primarchs legion along with the Emperor commanded First, and Third legions fought him and won at a terrible price. This could explain why Fulgrims Legion was under strength, the second legion is missing and the first has some of there early history deleted it was a cover-up. My 2, far-fetched cents: It would make a LOT of sense if the 2 legion had fallen to Chaos. On Horus Rising becomes quite clear that the Emperor know about the Chaos Gods, but he hides it even from the primarchs - he speaks about extraplanar creatures, but nothing near the true nature of the Chaos Gods as we know in 40k. In the words of Rindaris... We also know they did not fight other legions or dissolve into civil war within their own Legion. How do we know this? Because until the Heresy all the marines present the thought that Astartes fighting Astartes is unthinkable. Obviously if it had happened before it wouldn't be unthinkable. This is made extremely clear within both Horus Rising and False Gods. A second idea, based on the references about "exactly half" of the legions turned to Chaos, that only one Legion followed the fate I described above, and the other died slaughtered/facing that Legion - that would fit with the theories about Dark Angels and Emperor's Children: 2) Legion B is sent by the Emperor to destroy them, but is destroyed instead; 3) Emperor's Children almost fall victim of the Legion A (that's why their number became so thin that they are united to the Luna Wolves)... Well, there is nothing within the information that might suggest this. We already know it is unthinkable prior to the events of the Heresy for one marine to fight another, so this is almost certainly not responsible for the EC almost being wiped out near to their inception. 4) ... but are saved by the Dark Angels (which takes much of the time of the DA participation in the Crusade)5) the records of Legion A purging by DA are deleted, to keep the cover up - and DAs deals with a lot of secrecy about that, guarding a secret that the Emperor himself asked them to protect. Ibid.. The new information within Call of the Lion, corroborating that of Angels of Darkness, where by the DA Primarch is suddenly looking very suspect, means that the DA already have a big enough skeleton in their closet. The comments of Astelan within Call of the Lion also put a tremendous amount of faith in the Emperor and the Great Crusade. I don't think he would be so adamant about this if the legion had secretly been asked to wipe out a traitor legion so close to the beginning of the Crusade. A civil war between the Astarts is unthinkable to The Astarts not necessarily there Primarchs or Emperor Bob. Culling one or both missing legions happened before the other Primarchs were found they might not even Know about it as Emperor Bob is known to Hide things and lie on mass to the population in general, is it really a stretch to say he did it to his slave generals/I mean sons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamafore Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 I like the idea of a Null Primarch, but the problem is "Where are you going to find a Legions worth of Blanks". Before and during the Great Crusade, there weren't a million worlds in the Imperium, not to mention that while a lot of worlds populations do have the genetic markers to produce one or two Blanks per several billion, a lot of Blanks produce such an aura of unease and unnaturalness in their parents that many are killed at birth, or soon after. I can't imagine that the Emperor would be able to be in the same room as one, let alone create a legion of Nulls. Just the sheer difficulty of finding 5000+ Blanks would mean that creating a Legion like that would be impossible. Perhaps you wouldn't need to find recruits that are blanks. Think about it, we already know that the geneseed carries certain things from the primarch, Sanguinus' looks for example, it could be that in the process of turning the recruit into a marine, he becomes a blank because of the geneseed. EDIT: ^said it before me. :P Off-topic, the Blood Angels curse comes from Sanguinus' death, we know this, but where does the Space Wolf curse come from? Is it a defect in Russ' own genetic code? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Scourge Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 I've always assumed they left the two legions fate purposely ambiguous for the sake of the DIY-ers. Gives people space to make up their own theories and fluff...like you are all doing in this very thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lee265 Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 I've always assumed they left the two legions fate purposely ambiguous for the sake of the DIY-ers. Gives people space to make up their own theories and fluff...like you are all doing in this very thread. Thats what most asume but there is enough vague quotes and inuendo floating about that we like to debate what these Primarchs were like and not just enjoy the real world where its a game its our alternat life where 9-5 the wife hates me im loosing my job school sucks and my girlfriend dumped me don't apply we are the masters of our destinys here along with the dice gods. And it brings me entertainment so yes that may be why but in the univers where there is the god Emperor of mankind is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 I've always assumed they left the two legions fate purposely ambiguous for the sake of the DIY-ers. Gives people space to make up their own theories and fluff...like you are all doing in this very thread. Yes, I agree.. That and to draw more comparisons with the Romans who deleted all records of their defeated legions from their history. A defeated legion implied that the empire was fallable, an idea which would be too dangerous to allow to propogate. Although this might have been the original intention of Rick Priestley or Alan Merrett (or whoever wrote the idea originally), we know that these ideas have a strong habit of changing from their original intent! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raulmichile Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 Yeah, I think so, because at the begining of the 40K game the idea of the Primarchs was not so big and developed. They even didn't exist. The original 20 chapters were more a Roman legion based concept than it is now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Lord Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 If we go back to 2nd ed (not necessarily as far as rogue trader) there is some trace evidence. It says in Codex Imperialis "Nine primarchs survived the Heresy. the rest either died during the fighting or fled into the Eye." it also says 2 legions were "deleted from Imperial records following the heresy" Horus Heresy novels show that Ferrus Manus died very early in the Heresy. Add in Sanguinius and that leaves only 7 named living, loyal primarchs (assume The Lion counts as alive due to being "whisked away by the Watchers") Also, Codex Imperialis portrays the Primarchs in the modern fashion, superhuman, geneseed used to make the Legions, and "some have powers that do ot survive among space marines today, such as flight and invisibility" So, invisible primarch could have existed. Might have been Corax or Hight Haunter, but might have been one of the Two Missing Primarchs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purge The Weak Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 The way I see it is: All of the primarch's were scattered throughout the universe and in the HH some worlds are controlled by chaos, or unknowingly worship its entity's, there would be a good chance that at least one of these missing primarchs was on one of these worlds, and if so would grow up with it in his blood, or die fighting against it. Maybe they are locked away for being very naughty boys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yogi Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 I like to think of the two missing primarchs as dead losers. They died and wasted their legions. And it was soooo embrassing they were stricken from the record. One was a pirate the other was a ninja (obviously the invisible one). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The WarPig Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 :unsure:I m confused what is a null Primarch ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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