gil galed Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Naturally alot of theories of "Chapter X's primarch is" or "my fluff on loyal Thousand Son's is based on the idea that..." those marines who remained loyal while the majority of their chapter turned to chaos both escaped and were allowed to stay within the imperium. Do we actually have any evidence to say either way? I would presume that, what with the Empire almost falling, the Imperium would be hesitant to allow 'Loyal' Chaos Marines to remain alive let alone fighting for them. I as much as anyone else loves the idea of loyalist chaos chapters, i'm seriously considering making a loyalist thousand sons army and/or Loyalist Alpha legion or Alternate Heresy Sons of Horus... ...but bar all this is it really realistic that such marines existed? if they did escape their chapters and weren't killed immediatly is it likely they were just sent off on a penance crusade to die? Or is there geneseed still ok for chapter creation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-chaplain Astador Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Most if not all of them were killed by the traitorous marines - you can't plan an attack on terra if half of your army is still loyal to the Emperor a lot of the ones who were still loyal were sent down to Istavaan, ambushed, and then Virus bombed out of existance. A few, like Captain Garro, escaped, his story is yet to be told but most people assume inquisition or something similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solid Zaku Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 I think he's talking about the Loyalists within the other Traitor Legions. What likely happened is that they escaped their respective Legions and hid with allys from Loyalists Legions. Likely what happened to this small number of heroes is that they died in the fighting of the Heresy. I doubt that any of them would want to live knowing that everything their life was was being uprooted. I think most of them died valiantly combating their former brothers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XKhalilX Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 my take is most of those died fighting their former brothers of the legion as Zaku said. If any did survive, I imagine they were placed into other legions and/or successor chapters in the Second Founding, akin to how Terrans were put into legions prior to the heresy like Garro who was a Terran was in the Death Guard. Interesting would be if any of the loyalists remaining who survived went on to become the first Chapter Masters or Captains in Second Founding Chapters. Just my two cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JekCromium Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 I've started building up a force like that. A kind of "Remnant Chapter" if you will, made up of loyalists from different traitor legions. Constantly hunted by the Imperium, but still out to combat the Emperor's enemies. What with all the betrayals going on, I doubt the Imperium was very welcoming to any loyalists who showed up after the Eisenstein bunch. I mean, Garro had a reason to come back. He had to warn everybody. Unless they had vital intel to impart I'd expect any Emperor's Children who showed up saying "Um...my buddies are jerks...can I fight with you now?" would have immediately been gunned down as cowards for not dying valiantly trying to take down their traitorous brethren. And after the attack on Terra you can bet World Eaters, whether red or white, would get the same reception from the loyalist chapters: lots of bolter rounds. I think penance crusades would be highly unlikely, but a few of the smarter marines(less "I'll die in a suicide attack against my former legion" and more "I'll live to find a way to take them down eventually") joining together outside of Imperial control would be reasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrible_Trygon Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Naturally alot of theories of "Chapter X's primarch is" or "my fluff on loyal Thousand Son's is based on the idea that..." those marines who remained loyal while the majority of their chapter turned to chaos both escaped and were allowed to stay within the imperium. Do we actually have any evidence to say either way? I would presume that, what with the Empire almost falling, the Imperium would be hesitant to allow 'Loyal' Chaos Marines to remain alive let alone fighting for them. I as much as anyone else loves the idea of loyalist chaos chapters, i'm seriously considering making a loyalist thousand sons army and/or Loyalist Alpha legion or Alternate Heresy Sons of Horus... ...but bar all this is it really realistic that such marines existed? if they did escape their chapters and weren't killed immediatly is it likely they were just sent off on a penance crusade to die? Or is there geneseed still ok for chapter creation? They were all killed apart from Garro and the marines that accompanied him, whom likely were formed into the basis for the Grey Knights, being the first marines to have to deal with the subject of demon hunting and having been the ones to warn the Emperor of Horus's betrayal. It is a very black and white issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JekCromium Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 I agree entirely with Trygon that the Imperium wouldn't accept any of the loyalist traitor legionnaires back in, but I think Gil Galed could still get away with a loyal 1k Sons list. Admittedly they would be EXTREMELY excommunicated, but a force of, say 100 1k Sons who were off on some desperate mission for Magnus when he broke faith and themselves remained true to the Emperor, could still be around killing in the Emperor's name(although without his consent) up to 10,000 years later. I mean, look at the fallen Dark Angels. They're still popping up every so often and they're primarily mercenaries(depending on the fluff source) living outside the Eye of Terror(which I say is a good argument for the whole "Space Marines are immortal" statement, but that's another issue entirely :blush:). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haakon Ironheart Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 I agree entirely with Trygon that the Imperium wouldn't accept any of the loyalist traitor legionnaires back in, but I think Gil Galed could still get away with a loyal 1k Sons list. Admittedly they would be EXTREMELY excommunicated, but a force of, say 100 1k Sons who were off on some desperate mission for Magnus when he broke faith and themselves remained true to the Emperor, could still be around killing in the Emperor's name(although without his consent) up to 10,000 years later. Blood Ravens are probably descedants of loyal Thousand sons.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobo Willie Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 World Eaters, Sons of Horus, Death Guard, and Emperor's Children - All their loyalists died on Istvaan III, with the exception of Garro and his 70 or so marines. Night Lords - Doubt there were any loyalists at all. The Legion had gone rogue prior to Istvaan. Iron Warriors - Fluff indicated that the entire Legion was bitter towards the Emperor but there could have been loyalists as the Legion was very spread out in garrisons across the galaxy. Word Bearers - Fluff indicated all joined in the worship of the Chaos gods when Lorgar did. Alpha Legion - Legion doesn't go into it, but fluff indicated the entire Legion followed Alpharius. Thousand Sons - Entire Legion on Prospero were forced into actively betraying the Emperor following the Space Wolves action. Battle for the Abyss shows the entire Legion might not have been present, so some might have been out and about and didn't join in with their brethren. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrible_Trygon Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 I agree entirely with Trygon that the Imperium wouldn't accept any of the loyalist traitor legionnaires back in, but I think Gil Galed could still get away with a loyal 1k Sons list. Admittedly they would be EXTREMELY excommunicated, but a force of, say 100 1k Sons who were off on some desperate mission for Magnus when he broke faith and themselves remained true to the Emperor, could still be around killing in the Emperor's name(although without his consent) up to 10,000 years later. Blood Ravens are probably descedants of loyal Thousand sons.... This was said by Goto. Eldar erotic torture, multi-laser stroking Goto. Goto who was fired for trailing too far off fluff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verythrax Draconis Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Eldar erotic torture ...what? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall Riese Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Iron Warriors - Fluff indicated that the entire Legion was bitter towards the Emperor but there could have been loyalists as the Legion was very spread out in garrisons across the galaxy. Iron Warriors purged their own prior to linking forces with Horus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 I think in any case, the way that the resentment had been built up within the Iron Warriors, there wouldnt have been too many who would have been prepared to side against their Primarch.. The Night Lords is an interesting one.. I think so far they are almost the most 2-dimensional of the traitor legions. Surely they could not have been completely psychotic (they still had to coordinate plans, operate machinery etc.), had they already been taken by Chaos? :ermm: This was said by Goto. Eldar erotic torture, multi-laser stroking Goto. Goto who was fired for trailing too far off fluff. haha indeed. Although, the comments do seem to tie in with some of the info from the DoW 2 game. How something like this could practically happen is another matter entirely however... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saadeath Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Ohh, iv been wanting to mention somthing after i read "flight of the eisenstein" Garro was a traitor of the traitors(o.0?) loyalist within a traitor chapter. When he was on the Moon him and the 70 battle brother left, Didnt Garro say(i forget who, but some main SoB) he wanted to contiue to find against daemons and such? After reading that i started to think, since Daemonhunters background is a mystery, isnt it possible that Garro and the 70 would have formed them? i havnt read much into it, but wouldnt that be awsome ^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobo Willie Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 The Night Lords is an interesting one.. I think so far they are almost the most 2-dimensional of the traitor legions. Surely they could not have been completely psychotic (they still had to coordinate plans, operate machinery etc.), had they already been taken by Chaos? ;) Actually, Lord of the Night presents them as disillusioned loyalists who were betrayed by the Emperor after they had done his dirty work. How much of that is true is up in the air. It wasn't that they were all psychotic, it's just that the entire Legion became morally corrupt when their recruits were all criminals. According to the aforementioned book and the fluff in the codices, they've never really fallen to Chaos, only use it when it suits their needs. They are probably the least "Chaotic" of the nine Legions, probably alongside the Alpha Legion in that respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Just to clarify, I don't think it says anywhere that the Iron Warriors purged their own ranks, they purged their home planet. Of humans, not of other Astartes, and because the population had risen up against Perturabo since Perturabo overthrew all of the previous warlords that ruled the planet, one of which being his adopted father. Other than that I think Garro and the 70 were the only surviving loyal legionnaires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valdenaar Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 I have actually designed a Chapter made from these remnants. In short they were forgiven by the Emperor who was able to see they were loyal. These men eventually became the Dark Zealots Chapter of whom i'm writing about. i'll try to get some info up about them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrible_Trygon Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 Garro's men likely did become a chapter after they met the Emperor. This chapter is called the 'Grey Knights'. And they sure weren't asking for forgiveness. Instead they were thanked. Thanked for warning the Emperor of the Betrayal of Horus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endless Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 They are all dead, except a few World Eaters. cf. ;) "Space Marine" (the game) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JEFF4i Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 I feel bad for the Chaplains, all the Chaplains except for Word Bearers' ones were killed on the spot. :) It's safe to say that if they were loyalist, they probably were killed. Weren't Grey Knights initially founded on loyalist marines from traitor legions? So there's always some of those. If they don't fit into one of those two categories, but lived initially, probably took off and hid, went rogue, maybe to help out Marines but the Imperium won't take them back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobo Willie Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 I believe the exact origins of the Grey Knights are unexplained. The ending to Flight of the Eisenstein hints that Garro and his seventy might have been the basis for some sort of early Inquisition type of organization. But those marines would be all Death Guard with a single Luna Wolf/Sons of Horus marine. If they form the beginnings of the Grey Knights, that would suggest that the Grey Knights might be of Death Guard geneseed. In my opinion, it is safe to say that Garro and crew are the only loyalists to survive the Traitor Legions' purges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JEFF4i Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 In my opinion, it is safe to say that Garro and crew are the only loyalists to survive the Traitor Legions' purges. I highly doubt that, its just we haven't seen the books for The Night Lords, Iron Warriors, and other Traitor Legions that weren't at Isstvan. We'll see after those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperialis_Dominatus Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 If any survived purges from either side (traitor or loyalist), they probably live like some Fallen do now- as rogues loyal to whatever cause they've latched onto. I doubt any have formed a large and cohesive force. Outside of Dark/Cursed Founding Chapters, I don't think, from the fluff, a Chapter of them is possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobo Willie Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 In my opinion, it is safe to say that Garro and crew are the only loyalists to survive the Traitor Legions' purges. I highly doubt that, its just we haven't seen the books for The Night Lords, Iron Warriors, and other Traitor Legions that weren't at Isstvan. We'll see after those. You might be right, but I don't think so. It'll all end in them being killed even if they are loyalist elements in each of the Legions revealed in subsequent books. I mean, otherwise, what would the fledgling Imperium do with them if they escape? They nearly executed Garro and his men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JEFF4i Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 In my opinion, it is safe to say that Garro and crew are the only loyalists to survive the Traitor Legions' purges. I highly doubt that, its just we haven't seen the books for The Night Lords, Iron Warriors, and other Traitor Legions that weren't at Isstvan. We'll see after those. You might be right, but I don't think so. It'll all end in them being killed even if they are loyalist elements in each of the Legions revealed in subsequent books. I mean, otherwise, what would the fledgling Imperium do with them if they escape? They nearly executed Garro and his men. Oh I agree, but the Galaxy is a big place, maybe room for some underground dudes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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