Luigiman59 Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 so far, the best suggestions for making Possessed actually useful are either to roll for their powers BEFORE deployment, and/or to lower their points cost, i know 20 point possessed that can actually infiltrate all of a sudden appeal to me more my suggestion would simply be to keep their current costs and rules, but allow you to roll 2 dice on their table, and if you got doubles, you only get one power. This way they actually can get some very powerful combos, and much better chances at decent powers, and might actually be worth that high points premium, and most importantly, offer something unique that can't be done better by other units (Terminators, Berserkers) while still keeping them random, i think i'll try this as a house rule and see how it works out thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 I think they are ok for the points. The random element throws people off, but I think it's interresting. Chaosy. To give regular Chaos Marines a 5+ invulnerable save you would have to pay 40 points per squad. So if it was a squad of 10 you would pay +4 points per model. In a squad of 5 you would pay +8 poinst, but lets take the +4. They also gain +1 strength (used to cost +5 points in 3.5) and fearless, but lose boltpistol and boltgun. The rest of the points is spent for a randomly rolled skill: - Scout: That one is great. Vehicles get to scout with their unit, which means possessed in a rhino can be moved 12" before the game starts. They could even do first turn assaults that way. - Furious Charge: Kinda meh. Let's them strike with Strength 6 and Initiative 5 when they charge, so not bad, but situational. Used to cost +3 points in the last codex. - Fleet of Foot: Also meh. Fleet is nice, and if it helps them charge when they otherwise would not have been able to it is a great advantage. Stealers and Banshees certainly love their fleet. But situational and not very exciting. - Rending: Decent. With their 5+ invulnerable save (improveable to 4+), feralessnes and rending they are a real threat to monstrous creatures. The relatively low number of attacks/hits per points makes it less exciting than on stealers. I think this one cost +5 points in the last codex as well. Goes well with Icon of Khorne. - Feel no Pain: Great. Basically a 2+ armour against AP4 or worse, and 50% less casualies against AP3. Goes well with Icon of Nurgle. - Power Weapon: Instant win? Maybe not, but you would normally pay at least 30 points for a Marine with Strength 4 and no invulnerable save with a power weapon. Goes well with Khorne or Slaanesh. Some of the skills are worth much more than 26 points per model, and only Fourious Charge and Fleet are not so exciting. But even with those you wouldn't pay excessive points for nothing. Maybe 2-3 points more per model than you would like. Overall I would say that two of the abilities are slightly lower in value (furious charge, fleet), one is pretty much the value you pay (rending), and three are better in value than what you pay (scout, feel no pain, power weapon). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Askari Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Their points are ok but they should roll for powers before deployment and their champs should be able to buy lightning claws and power fists. Making a possessed champion with lightning claws like Onyx from Dead Sky Black Sun would be awesome. Nothing says chaos like ripping the spines out of loyalist marines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Having access to wargear would make a huge difference, but they would still need a slight point reduction. A suggestion i saw somewhere was to make it so that they are a bit cheaper and then can buy a lesser specia rule like scouts, counter attack or furius charge, and then randomly roll for a stronger one like rending, power weapons, or FNP. Or just make them scoring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrickwrock Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 - Feel no Pain: Great. Basically a 2+ armour against AP4 or worse, and 50% less casualies against AP3. Goes well with Icon of Nurgle. Really? I thought the feel no pain bonus roll only applied when you would normally get an armor save and an instance where no armor save is allowed, the feel no pain save is also disallowed. Don't have my rule book with me at the moment though, so i could be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Maybe not, but you would normally pay at least 30 points for a Marine with Strength 4 and no invulnerable save with a power weapon. well actually i pay 30 pts for a sm with +2 save and inv+5 with deep strike and options for combi weapons . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutt-Man! Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 AP1, AP2, Instant Death, Armor Ignoring Melee Attacks = Negates FNP. Small squads of possessed is like packing fabius enhanced marines, a spendy icon of tzeentch in a small unit of 5. 75+15+40=130 vs 130 Both cost the same, possessed are nice in small number as underdogs. The random roll balances the fact they are elite, and lack scoring status, and thats without having to buy fabius and bypassing the random mutation roll that could turn out bad, so that somewhat balances no meltaguns for the unit. (Only slightly) They can have an icon on top of this, so that may balance out the no meltagun bit as well a little more. The unit can scout, or fleet, either way its an ease for a quicker assault. That's a rush factor, can be quite fun I guess. The power weapons are nice, setting them somewhat closer to terminators that are just 4 points more. Rending is nice too, its a killer if the unit is under-estimated. Furious charge well, I see it as something like rending vs tanks. You get +1to+3 on the rend roll, its like automaticly getting the +1 after the D6 penetration roll so its 1/3rd of the rend no matter if you get a 6 or not on penetration roll. The initiative is a bonus, on top of any others, I have seen a rare dread get its arm taken away from being charged by a unit of possessed. Though after that they did nothing to eachother the rest of the game... Irony! They make a nice walk-in unit to assist a character but terminators do it better. Such a unit needs a little more to compete with the other choices, but that doesnt mean the unit itself is a bad choice. Lots of loyalist marine players would drool over these guys if they got the chance to field them in their own version of things (Machine cult-marines maybe?). That would beat using certain expensive elites they use, for some things... One thing does give me the creeps, I playtested a unit of 20 possessed recently, getting the scout roll of all things in a dawn of war scenario. Two basilisks on the recieving end didnt like their arrival outflanking. I believe if the unit has the Icon of Khorne, it is like having the icon of tzeentch, icon of khorne, and fabius' enhancements all in the same unit refusing any unit upgrades as a result. That is spooky. Though I rather buy fabius just to use scoring fearless troops and have my meltaguns and powerfist champ. I have too much free time as of lately =p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Both cost the same, possessed are nice in small number as underdogs. The random roll balances the fact they are elite, and lack scoring status, and thats without having to buy fabius and bypassing the random mutation roll that could turn out bad, so that somewhat balances no meltaguns for the unit. (Only slightly) They can have an icon on top of this, so that may balance out the no meltagun bit as well a little more. non scoring . you forget that they are non scoring . thats a huge bad [+the fact that they eat up the slot for one termicide squad , what kind of a eats the othe one up too as a single squad aint consistent enough to be played]. + 5man assault units that join a foot slogging HQ -_- is a very bad idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Berzerkers are still more efficient. They are scoring, they are cheaper, they have more attacks, they have higher WS, invulnerable saves are kind of meh considering the huge cover saves in 5th and the mechanization of chaos, and the bonus abilities are really the only selling point. Oh and I disagree that scouts is a good one, sure you can get an early assault if everything goes perfectly, but not only would that leave that one unit a bit high and dry for a while, but without any stat bonus like rending or FnP those early assaulters are basically just hugely overpriced chaos marines, whoopdy doo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Their points are ok but they should roll for powers before deployment and their champs should be able to buy lightning claws and power fists. What would be the difference rolling before deployment? That they then can outflank. And that you have a little more controll about how you utilize the specific power of the chosen. Both not neccessarily the intention for a random chaos power unit. Having access to wargear would make a huge difference, but they would still need a slight point reduction. I would disagree. But if you take away power weapons, scout and feel no pain and maybe have them get one of the other three then yeah, perhaps they could be 1-2 point cheaper. well actually i pay 30 pts for a sm with +2 save and inv+5 with deep strike and options for combi weapons Well, how much do you pay for a marine in power armour with a power weapon? And since loyalists pay 40 points for a Marine with 2+ save, 5+ inv and deep strike (that would be the terminator sergeant) you can consider that a chaos discount. MEQ with 5+ save, Strength 5 and power weapons for 26 points is still a bargain. They do more wounds than Terminators as well. non scoring . you forget that they are non scoring . thats a huge bad Not to me. Give me Sternguard, Raptors, Terminators. I don't need every unit in my army to be scoring. Oh and I disagree that scouts is a good one, sure you can get an early assault if everything goes perfectly, but not only would that leave that one unit a bit high and dry for a while, but without any stat bonus like rending or FnP those early assaulters are basically just hugely overpriced chaos marines, whoopdy doo. Maybe it's not all that against Black Templars, or against other chaos armies, but Tau or Imperial Guard will not be happy if they are assaulted by 5+ inv and fearless Chaos Marines at turn 1. Space Marines, while perhaps able to deal with them, would still be quite disturbed if they were assaulted by 10 of these guys turn 1. With the right combination of icons and rolled mutation the unit can be more destructive than berserkers (same number of attacks but S6 or power weapon/rending) or tougher than plague marines (T5 and FnP, but with 5+ inv, and still S5), but there is no guarantee that you will get the power you want most. If you prefer terminators or chosen there is no shame in using them. You can have some fun with a unit of possessed, but they aren't a no brainer you would see in every tourny army either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 I say give them an extra cc weapon and frag grenades. That already would help a lot. Hmm and maybe lower the points to 24 a piece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutt-Man! Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Though I rather buy fabius just to use scoring fearless troops and have my meltaguns and powerfist champ. I have too much free time as of lately =p Both cost the same, possessed are nice in small number as underdogs. The random roll balances the fact they are elite, and lack scoring status, and thats without having to buy fabius and bypassing the random mutation roll that could turn out bad, so that somewhat balances no meltaguns for the unit. (Only slightly) They can have an icon on top of this, so that may balance out the no meltagun bit as well a little more. non scoring . you forget that they are non scoring . thats a huge bad Last comments can be missed sometimes. =) Ah well this topic has been ran into ground more times then someone keeping track cares to mention. Pro. +1 strength Fearless 5+ inv save (Icon of Tzeentch) Random Roll, arguably 2/6 are good enough for their cost (rending and power weapons) Add an icon to what would be icon benefits already in the unit (like IoT above) Con. No champ upgrades. No special or any weapon upgrades. No grenades. No ranged weapons to speak of, bolter, pistol or otherwise. Scout roll chance has a downfall if you risk putting them in reserves for the 1/6 chance to outflank. Non Scoring. +4 points and you get a terminator for the same FOC slot. The cons seem to balance the benefits, so where do the extra 11 points paid for go to? They are worth their points roughly in a unit of 5, that is if you pay for a spendy icon of tzeentch for 5 chaos space marines with fabius' enhancements. Yet those would still score. I like them, I really do, they can bash lots of things and are a good choice for the people who like them and use them properly. They are outshined. Fixing them, I say bring back the old reliable rules where the daemonic parts were upgrades, not a random table to roll for. I like to know what I'm getting. At least with a dread I can prepare properly for what I get for him, these guys I dont know if I want to add 5 for a joke factor as an outflank attempt/heavy support counter charge guarding unit that arrives from reserves that rolled anything but a 1 ashamed of failing their commander in rolling a 2+. CHosen outflank easier, and for 33 points you get up to 5 of them that you know have power weapons, and can outflank, and may have an icon. Possessed need to be a troop choice, I would use them if they became a troop unit. Or they had a choice-table of upgrades like tyranid bio-symbiots. (For once I thought about the topic, hah!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killersquid Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 5+ inv save (Icon of Tzeentch) 4+ with Icon of Tzeentch, 5+ stanard. ^_^ I've been meaning to take possessed myself, but I cannot find the points for them. Tricky to fit in an army I find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyescrossed Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 - Feel no Pain: Great. Basically a 2+ armour against AP4 or worse, and 50% less casualies against AP3. Goes well with Icon of Nurgle. Really? I thought the feel no pain bonus roll only applied when you would normally get an armor save and an instance where no armor save is allowed, the feel no pain save is also disallowed. Don't have my rule book with me at the moment though, so i could be wrong. No, you do get FNP unless the attack ignores all armour saves, is AP1 or 2, or causes Instant Death. Legatus was just saying it's basically a 2+ save as you have the 3+ AND Feel No Pain, but only if it's AP4 or worse (as AP3 would ignore their armour, thus only giving them FNP). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Democratus Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 The Scout ability is also completely useless in 1/3 of the missions (Dawn of War) where the Possessed can't be on the table at the start and thus loose their move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Yes, so that means the special ability is a blank in 1/18 of the cases. (The chance that a devastator squad will run off the board due to a failed morale check is 1/6...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornelias Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 i find possessed pretty fun to use in friendly games and the only real problem with them is the lack of frags, i'd never take them in a serious game though. a slight points decrease would be welcome but i doubt even then many people would use them and it's a shame really as the new kit is pretty good but rarely gets used as intended with many preferring to use the parts for chosen/lords/champs etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 mutt the problem is not just possessed . lets say you take 2x5 with 2 Hqs with wings [or blissgiver speed lords ]. the points are gone . no termis ,so where to you put your anti LR/tank meta ? its not just that you take a rather sub par unit as bodyguard , but you also nerf your own army by losing points for meta choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutt-Man! Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 IoK+furious charge 4x#of unit vs rear armor. Only vehicles in game that can be used in a regular(not apoc/custom mission) games that have rear's higher then 12. Monoliths, Land Raiders Vehicles with 12 rears(including dreads, countring the front armor) Dreadnoughts, Chaos/Loyalist/Deffdreads Drop Pods Vehicles with 11 rears (counting certain walkers front armor) Pentient Engines Killakans Leman Russ demolishers Everything else is 10 and below when caught in melee. 50% chance when you hit it, that you will do something, so a 6" moved vehicle (cruising speed) is 50% then 50% making one attack out of 4 attacks do something per model. I count that as a type of effective tank hunting. People seem to bypass the rule where non-walkers count rears on all sides when in melee contact. Two out of 6 are effective for tank hunting(rend/furious), another 2 out of 6 are effective for anti-infantry(power wep/rend) while a third(furious) is arguably almost worth it(while making it a better tank hunting unit), one allows a fun scout move for the unit+transport for fast assaults, fleet allows a slightly faster assault when the oppertunity arises, and FNP makes them almost as durable as terminators in most respects.(AP3 allows FNP still however aside from instant death) Its an annoying unit to use, a versitile list could use a small unit, a large super-unit would be a great shock force when you want something zerker-like thats fearless and use them recklessly making them decent for not being a scoring unit. (Expecting them to die) No full use for them, your right the melta loss is significant but the unit still has its uses. Superior versus most other codexes with units of similar cost. (Death Company, Genestealers with scuttle, toxins, talons(icon of khorne) and carapace). Perhaps have the option of having the roll result of a 1:Scout chosen before deployment as your roll, otherwise roll normally after deployment (and maybe roll a 1). I would like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 On paper possessed arn't terrible. But the problem is that all our troop options are really good. If we had just vanilla chaos marines as troops possessed would be seen a lot more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornelias Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 or they could replace scouts with some kind of shooting power (possibly low AP) that would encourage people to gamble on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 or they could replace scouts with some kind of shooting power (possibly low AP) that would encourage people to gamble on them. I'd prefer it if it was just a different special rule, like counter attack or hit and run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutt-Man! Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 I like outflank, I guess I would settle with chosen for the job. Hit and Run always was a bit of a questionible rule when the unit isnt lead by a very tricky commander/sergeant type or the unit is fearless and has no thoughts of backing away from their opponent. -Old Raptors had doctrines like that, wish they still did~ -Power-able Exarch's in a Warp Spider Unit -Callidus Assassin original rule. -Lictor Rule. (tricky beasts) I dont see possessed being like them. Though, being very daemonic.... Being able to summon them would be cool, like in the way of lesser daemons. Would even give options depending on what they get in their roll, and a drawback (summoning marines is mean, ones that can assault when they arrive I mean) being that scout/fleet wouldnt be used too much, fleet would be the turn after. Taking the summoning as an option to the player of course. Another way to do could be extending their table of contents with more powerful abilities the higher you roll on 2D6 like the Big-Mek's shokk attack gun. (Roll before deployment after mission and sides are chosen) 2:Scout 3:Infiltrate 4:Furious Charge 5:Rending 6:Power Weapons 7:Power Weapons+1 Strength 8:Power Weapons+Double the icons effect that they own or reroll if no icon is present 9:Power Weapons, Deep Strike/Summon/Infiltrate 10:Power Fists 11:Power Fists, Rending 12:Pick any two, results that are doubled are ignored. (Two power weapons, two Infiltrates for example) I know I didnt put in feel no pain, I figure it would all be offensive in a way. Having a 12 rolled, I could see a potential 3+ inv save unit with a doubled icon of tzeentch, Initiative 7 furious charge+icon of slaanesh doubled. I know that table isnt fair, its just an example of what could be thrown in to make them seem very different from chosen and terminators in the elite category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Humongous Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 I agree they might be worth it if able to be deployed like lesser summoned demons. Teleporter technology would do the job; its not like going through the warp is gonna hurt them any more than termies, and it certainly won't drive them mad. Another alternative would be to expand on the fluff's mentioning of them having inhuman senses and being able to aide in warp navigation. For example, each unit of possessed could allow you to re-roll a reserves roll, for example, or provide some other strategic benefit to your army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Everything else is 10 and below when caught in melee. 50% chance when you hit it, that you will do something, so a 6" moved vehicle (cruising speed) is 50% then 50% making one attack out of 4 attacks do something per model. Puting the random factor aside [power weapon do nothing against tanks , as does scout ] transports or tanks most of the time are moving 12" or more per turn [if they are elder/tau] and a unit that has a treat range of 12"[most of the time at least] will have some serious problems with getting to them . also there is this thing of 5 man being cheap. well they dont cost a lot , but with termis I know they will not die before they use their combis[unless someone is hardcore loyalist and took an inq with mystics] . with 5 possessed even if one or two die [and its not that hard to put some saves on them] the kill factor of the unit drops drasticlly . Both the termis and the possessed are kamikaze units . both will die. Only termis die after they did something , while possessed have a big chance have of dieing before they do something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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