Fixing Possessed Marines

[Mutt-Man!]

Again comparisons against other units, possessed are a good unit. Just better options. Having str5, rend or furious charge makes for decent tank hunting. I didnt say it was the best, and there are odds where terminators scatter bad and get shot up where their combis would be either out of range, or at a bad angle that even gives the vehicle an obscure save.

 

Though this topic can go in circles, lets place it in personal preference? (I prefer terminators over possessed)

[the jeske]

I didnt say it was the best, and there are odds where terminators scatter bad and get shot up where their combis would be either out of range, or at a bad angle that even gives the vehicle an obscure save.

thats rather hard to do considering they come turn 2+ and csm are a short range army so first turn the icons move 12" near the enemy ,also because of the scater /range thing one spams units . the thing with possessed it . If i knew I could alway get rending [or any other option even scout] before the battle I could build my army around them . I seen possessed work nice in an scenario/story based battle where one rolled for them once . otherwise there is a big chance that my army will end up without either anti tank or anti horde or end up with too much of those and non of the other.

[Night Stalker]

Scout for possessed all the time would work. As it's really 'scout or outflank'.

 

If they would have scout on top of their table, they would be cool [even if they would get no mutation if you roll '1'] - even at their current cost,.

[Dràyhèn]

I play them with my own rules in my gaming group, and everyone lets me to use them.

I've done them so that I mixed the powers like this:

 

1-2: Scout & Rending

3-4: Furious Charge & Feel No Pain

5-6: Fleet & Power Weapons

 

Then I equipped them with frags, gave them extra attack and gave +1 ws.

They come in 5-man teams which cost 170pts and you can give one a heavy flamer (daemonic fire) at 15pts and icons.

Icons are all a bit cheaper, Khorne & Slaanesh 10pts and Nurgle/Tzeentch 20pts.

 

They're under testing now. So far I have got them into cc only once. Bad luck. As Jeske pointed out, they're not guaranteed to reach their destination.

[Mutt-Man!]

Sounds cool.

 

Currently our "Assault Marines" cost 2 pts more a model, but we get melta/plasma guns in our units with cool melee icons and such, so that is more then acceptible.

 

Our Bikes cost a hideous 8 pts more then loyalists, with same gun options and we get icons, they get attack bikes for the units as we get +1 attack over them. Cutting down the points cost just a little would level it out.

 

Possessed need an overhaul, as this thread suggests.

 

Predator, well not sure if we need a change here, all armies have their small perks in minor cost details.

 

Dreadnought needs a little tweaking, otherwise its fine for the most part (a melee force getting more good melee, right?)

 

Chaos Lord is sub par to other options, but their daemon weapons make them tactical in a way, not much to do with them.

 

Vindicator should be set at the same cost as loyalists, we dont get siege shields.

 

Spawns need to have the option to be summoned or something different.

 

Though I still insist our codex is leagues better then the new loyalist codex. These drawbacks arent really that bad. We can still throw 10 possessed at them and still potentially kill their own costs worth. Yet we still have better melee and firepower if we set our forces right.

 

Going over all this, I think possessed (like any single unit out of a codex) is the unwanted stepchild, even less used then the dreadnought.

 

 

Should we add in spawns, lords and dreadnougts to the discussion? (I know plenty of that out already)

[Night Stalker]

Sounds cool.

 

Currently our "Assault Marines" cost 2 pts more a model, but we get melta/plasma guns in our units with cool melee icons and such, so that is more then acceptible.

 

Not really, they need a slight boost. Assault marines have also combat tactics, that can be swaped for fleet for example (!!!).

 

Also, plasma pistol option need total revamp. 5 points more than meltagun for -1S, overheat, and lack of S4 AP5 pistol shoot option (yeah, that last thing is only worth it against avatar, but hey!). WHAT!?

 

Having icon is imo stupid excuse for inferior unit. Icon should be balanced on it's own, not 'must have' option. It's just wrong ...

 

Our Bikes cost a hideous 8 pts more then loyalists, with same gun options and we get icons, they get attack bikes for the units as we get +1 attack over them. Cutting down the points cost just a little would level it out.

 

Agree.

 

Possessed need an overhaul, as this thread suggests.

 

Agree.

 

Predator, well not sure if we need a change here, all armies have their small perks in minor cost details.

 

You suggest that csm should be inferior ? why ?

 

Dreadnought needs a little tweaking, otherwise its fine for the most part (a melee force getting more good melee, right?)

 

yeah, and crazy table does not make them subpar. right.

 

Chaos Lord is sub par to other options, but their daemon weapons make them tactical in a way, not much to do with them.

 

It's again not good excuse 'all your lord are nerfed, but those with daemon weapons are least nerfed'. Daemon Weapon is not practical - it's sub-par.

 

Vindicator should be set at the same cost as loyalists, we dont get siege shields.

 

Again, why vindicators should be subpar ?

 

Spawns need to have the option to be summoned or something different.

 

Not really. Spawns are not summoned. Read again about them. They just need some kind of boost (like feel no pain perhaps ?).

 

Though I still insist our codex is leagues better then the new loyalist codex. These drawbacks arent really that bad. We can still throw 10 possessed at them and still potentially kill their own costs worth. Yet we still have better melee and firepower if we set our forces right.

 

No it is not. It's way worse. It's internal balance is just that bad. Terminator lord against lash prince ? Yeah - it have few things above power curve. But codex should be treated as a whole. Current one does have only few uber competetive lists, and some units never see play. It means this codex stinks hard. It's really, really bad. That bad.

 

Going over all this, I think possessed (like any single unit out of a codex) is the unwanted stepchild, even less used then the dreadnought.

 

Should we add in spawns, lords and dreadnougts to the discussion? (I know plenty of that out already)

 

Yeah, those also should be added to the discussion IMO.

[Sception]

Possessed don't need a revision, they need to be chucked completely and rebuilt from the bottom up. I love the models, and my fluff (Black Legion) says to take them, so I do. But they are, on average, a more expensive, less effective, non-scoring unit of chaos marines that fill a spot otherwise spent on terminators.

 

5+ inv. doesn't mean so much in a world of ubiquitous 4+ cover. S5 is nice for a shock unit, but loses its luster when you're trading away bolters, pistols, frag grenades, and krak grenades to get it. The random roll ranges from meh to great, but hardly balances out to over 10 points a model on average.

 

And then you remember that you aren't scoring. That you're fighting for limited elites slots with the also cool but actually good terminator squads. That you're a shock assault unit that, in all likelyhood, is going to have to depend on support from some other assault unit in order to win fights with the most common enemy units, since you're relying on a random roll to give you any tool that can bypass power armor.

 

 

No. No, possessed are really, really lousy. They'd be lousy if the only other unit in the army was generic Chaos Marines. They right in there with bikes, small squads with icons of nurgle or tzeentch, and chaos spawn in terms of units that you're basically throwing away points by including in your army list. They're notably worse then Chaos Lords and dreadnoughts. They're a huge source of my current bitterness with 40k and the chaos book. It's one thing when there are just more efficient options - but possessed would be bad even if terminators, berzerkers, and plague marines didn't exist, and the extreme swing of their random power roll means that there is no appropriate points cost for them. They're so bad that I stopped having fun, and stopped playing.

 

[/dramaqueen]. but still.

 

 

Want to fix possessed? Here: reduce to S4, keep the 5++, give them fleet, rending, and frag grenades. Give them a random d3 roll stat upgrade:

1: +1 T (or possibly +1 Ws and/or Init)

2: +1 S

3: +1 A

 

Now they have the tools they need to perform their role (ie, frag grenades, something to mitigate troop armor) as an elite shock assault unit. They're still random, but all the random upgrades build towards the same goal: shock assault, and are close enough in efficiency that the unit can be given a fair points cost.

[Mutt-Man!]

Forgive my quote lacking, easier for me this way (not much time).

 

@Night Stalker

 

Our raptors can bulk to 20, pack an icon that makes them as durable as bikes in melee (and get the two turn assault as normal with daemon allies summoned near them that can assault). Give them inv saves, higher initiative or attacks. For a speedy unit that does not rely on a transport, and can deep strike, I would say the 2 points are justified in most respects compared to loyalists. Combat Squads arent that great, and for a unit that has no heavy weapons to sit back, they all go in... Plasma Pistols, well its a give and take to keep that extra melee attack. One shot at 12" instead of 2 that doubles the risk of the marine dying to his own shot, a single pistol is fine to stun a transport being chased by a squad full of krak grenaders. (Potentially 20 grenaders actually). Its a very powerful unit compared to the weaker yet slightly cheaper loyalist unit, that oddly enough has their own version of hit and run. (A lesser one) that can never be relied upon. Even our leadership icon is quite formiddable,

 

For the Predator and no siege shield for our Vindicators, we have lots already, practicly the entire army is good in melee one way or another, or its a tank. Siege shield maybe, but as it stands our dakka predator can mount a havoc launcher, and our laspredator can rely on even a havoc squad to protect it from melee. The more difficult it is (the more soft areas covered that loyalists dont quite have) the more spendy our shooty elements of the same type should be. Its full codex balance. I wouldnt be surprised if they mirror loyalist tanks in the next codex though, points and options.

 

I always use lash like the daemon codexes version of lash at the same cost. Thats me though, opponents are thankful for it since I like using my slaanesh stuff. The codex as a whole is powerful, its all very geared for offensive play and even defensive play. We can stack a whole army behind 5+ inv saves or better. We can amount enough attacks that add 1/4th of the forces melee capability(roughly). We can have enough higher initiative attacks that can hinder even a blood angels melee force because we strike ahead of them. We can even make our army have the same toughness as bikes. Thats all icon-work. Our specialists are very powerful in their fields, and our general specialist the terminator is very above par. Our dreadnought is deadlier in melee, our dakka predator is shootier, our land raider is cheaper (I prefer cheaper). We lack lots of what the loyalists have, but one thing is certain. We do not inherit their weakness in melee combat, and with certain lists we best them in their best field of combat and not only that, we can remain mobile while doing so. Even so, most of those choices are scoring units.

 

I have seen 5 Pfist terminators die to 8 thousand sons because of the 4+ inv save and the warptime sorcerer that munched them. I have seen a berzerker unit wound a wraithlord to death before their powerfist (and the wraithlord) got to strike. I have seen Plague Marines army take more shots then the Necron army they faced and came out victorious. We have several codexes worth in nasty elements, and we all have it inside one book.

 

So with such a melee munchy force pre-5th edition rulebook (always released before the new BBB dang it) our melee options were a bit limited during playtesting stages. I bet if things were redone, spawns, possessed, dreadnoughts and lords would have a different way of chopping things up.

 

Our lords can pack up to 17 melee attacks (I use them in pairs), attack with poisoned power weapon attacks, instant death without psyker powers and slap with great versitility and strength. I like our codex. Every time we get a new chaos codex we often set the standard of the next edition. It was so for 3rd, 4th and then 5th. (3.0 during 3rd, 3.5 before 4th, and 4.0 before 5th)

 

 

I feel like running 2 lords, 2 dreads, 20 possessed and 9 spawns now... Just for a refresher.

[eyescrossed]

I have seen a berzerker unit wound a wraithlord to death before their powerfist (and the wraithlord) got to strike.

Must have been last codex, Wraithlords are I4 now.

[Rain]

I have seen a berzerker unit wound a wraithlord to death before their powerfist (and the wraithlord) got to strike.

Must have been last codex, Wraithlords are I4 now.

 

Or they charged it?

 

Anyway, I agree that the codex is quite strong it's just not very interesting or customizable, but really this has been beaten to death. In any case possessed are just sub-par considering all of the other choices, they aren't completely useless like spawn or dreadnoughts but they aren't that great so use em if you want the flavor or whatever, but generally whenever you need to come up with some very complex and involved plan to make a unit useful, you are better off using a simpler plan with a better unit.

[Lord Humongous]

Our raptors can bulk to 20, pack an icon that makes them as durable as bikes in melee (and get the two turn assault as normal with daemon allies summoned near them that can assault). Give them inv saves, higher initiative or attacks. For a speedy unit that does not rely on a transport, and can deep strike, I would say the 2 points are justified in most respects compared to loyalists. Combat Squads arent that great, and for a unit that has no heavy weapons to sit back, they all go in... Plasma Pistols, well its a give and take to keep that extra melee attack. One shot at 12" instead of 2 that doubles the risk of the marine dying to his own shot, a single pistol is fine to stun a transport being chased by a squad full of krak grenaders. (Potentially 20 grenaders actually). Its a very powerful unit compared to the weaker yet slightly cheaper loyalist unit, that oddly enough has their own version of hit and run. (A lesser one) that can never be relied upon. Even our leadership icon is quite formiddable,

 

There is no "give and take" with plasma pistols. You don't loose any attacks by taking a meltagun, because you still have the bolt pistol. The meltagun does everything the plasma pistol does (including that extra attack), only it does it better, for fewer points.

I'm not sure on some of your other points. Sure, you can take a unit of 20... which makes a really attractive target. Raptors get cover saves much less often than other units, because moving them into difficult terrain looses you models. Bigger units are harder to screen, be it with other units, vehicles, or terrain. Anyhow, the OPTION of taking a unit of up to 20 should not make every model in a unit of 5 or 10 cost more. Nor should the OPTION of taking an icon. Small units without icons should be priced based on thier own merits.

 

Anyhow...

 

Spawn- need fixing IF they are intended to ever be purchased as deployed units. They work fine if created with "gift of chaos" (excepting for kill point games) but the cost / lackluster performance / lack of control makes purchasing them as units untenable. FNP would be a decent fix. And it wouldn't suck if every spawn was treated as a unique model for wound allocation as well. I think Poison atacks would also work well, and make sense.

 

Lords- I don't really see the problem with them. Yeah, they have many fewer options than before, but what they get is pretty solid. It would be nice if they got "cult unit" style upgrades when they took marks, but nurgle lords with FNP would have to cost a LOT more.

 

Demon Prince- These are the guys who need more options, especially the Khorne DP. Its not that what they have is bad, its just very cookie cutter. Lash probably should be toned down.

 

Sorcerer- Libririans get better powers and options. Huh? Chaos psychers are WEAKER?

 

Dreads- you should have the option of automatically triggering "Fire Frenzy" or "Blood Rage" if you wish, without needing to roll. That would both make them more attractive AND have them acting more "crazy", as befits the fluff. To compensate, cost (especially for ranged weapons) would go up. Demonic Possesion should also be an option- maybe an option that also removes the "crazed" rule, since the demon would not be insane (at least, not in the same way as the "pilot" he possesed).

 

 

The only thing I don't especially like about the codex is that it seems there are a fairly limited number of (rather obvious, at this point) competative builds / units. I'd prefer to see the power-builds a bit less overpowered, and some alternate builds gaining a bit. Post 5th edition codexes seem to be doing this much better, and I think CSM need the same treetment. However, this was also a problem in the old codex (1k sons vs Iron Warriors) - its probably a rather tall order to want a codex with multiple eltite units, all equally viable, none overpowered, and all usable in a wide range of balanced configurations.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I have seen a berzerker unit wound a wraithlord to death before their powerfist (and the wraithlord) got to strike.

Must have been last codex, Wraithlords are I4 now.

 

Furious charge makes berserkers I5.

 

Mutt-man: Whenever you make comparisons to loyalists you have to factor in ATSKNF. It changes the equation a lot. Also remember that generally only the best unit in any given category will ever be used. Unless you are a pure fluff player, there is no point in having units in the codex that won't get used. Our current codex could have just daemon princes, terminators, plague marines, berserkers, rhinos, oblits, and defilers and it would be the same competitive strength. The loyalist codex is a lot more balanced because it is actually worth using different units in different list styles. For example with chaos if you are doing an armored list you take defilers as your heavies. If you are doing just a mech list you take oblits instead. We have two flavors. For loyalists there are competitive lists for almost all their heavy options except Devastators and Thunderfire's. Sure our top competitive list is probably better, but we only have 2 or 3 competitive lists. They have more options and variation.

[Rain]

Not that they fixed 1k sons, it's still pretty hard to play a competitive true legion army and most people take undivided armies with a tzeentch HQ and 1 rubric squad and call that "1k sons". Really unfortunate as the background is quite good, but the execution is consistently shoddy. In any case we are all in the same boat at this point needing to use counts as if we want to stick to one legion and most players I see around who play Chaos play some kind of mish-mash which is sad given the rich history the individual legions have.

[eyescrossed]

I have seen a berzerker unit wound a wraithlord to death before their powerfist (and the wraithlord) got to strike.

Must have been last codex, Wraithlords are I4 now.

 

Furious charge makes berserkers I5.

Oops, read it wrong - I thought he said the Powerfist got the Wraithlord :P

[Mutt-Man!]

Agreed on most parts of your point drudge, but I run with the side that makes up our own fluff and uses the model rules.. Like bionic-marines for plague marines in an Iron Warrior army... Sumsuch things like that. So for us, its not really a problem. TO each their own however. Besides if more loyalist players played according to fluff, you wouldnt see more then one thunderfire cannon, and more then 1 land raider in a single 2k. But we all dont just run with fluff anymore, or even the tactical consideration of what our commander would really use besides the owning player. (IW army using lots of raptors, for example, and loyalist marine players using lots of bikes and then a thunderfire cannon that doesnt deep strike-drop pod).

[Rain]

The issue is that the fluff really is more malleable in the case of loyalist land raider spam or even IW raptors than it is in the case of say, berzerkers following a Slaanesh prince. The problem is that lots of LR's is "unfluffy" because they are rare, but it is still conceivable for lots of them to be marshaled for some important battle, especially in a mechanical or siege oriented chapter like the Imperial Fists or Iron Hands, just like how as far as anyone knows Iron Warriors had assault companies like any other legion and would therefore have raptors that might all be mobilized at once if some high up warsmith deemed it necessary.

 

The problem with some chaos combos however is the religion of the chaos worshippers and the jealousies of their respective gods. Khorne and Slaanesh hate each other, heck both the World Eaters and Emperor's Children were shattered because of fighting each other not loyalists! And with all that you expect blood crazed worshippers of khorne who would readily die just to add skulls to his throne to take orders from some giant Joan Rivers lookalike in bad cologne just so you can cast lash of submission?! I think not!

[Mutt-Man!]

Not to defend either point, but a competition list does not have to include multiple chaos-god units from different deities to be near the top of the game. My chaos doesnt have a problem, and I rarely use lash... (Hell I rarely use the power when I play games with it) I dont ount my win/loss ratio, but as of recent my chaos has been rockin decently no matter what enemy they've faced. I change my list almost every game and while the various unliked units, dreads and so on (CC dreads/ML dreads) do well, good or bad luck. Short example.

 

I like your analogy of a lash prince, thats sig-able material. =p

[the jeske]

well mutt there is also that fact that a lot of non tournament build armies [specially sm] just plain suck . when you goldfish a sm "tactical" army and a chaos one [even without lash or dps] , the chaos one is plain superior . But when you play in a normal setting , some builds [like nob bikers for example] are just too hard to play against without meta .

[Mutt-Man!]

Agreed, but there is a lot to consider when trying for a equalising choice selection compared to popular selection. Lots of khorne and nurgle armies are out there, while a popular trend for marines may battle this to great effect, they cant stand sending a pure melee or short range firefight army against these two without fighting an uphill battle.

 

Popular trends also effect this, and the pop-chaos have above-par in certain subjective situations. The firepower loving Iron Warrior forces often have terminators, the tanks and a semi-decent HQ (being a lord usually, which still abides marines best fighters). Still stand toe to toe with most shooty marine forces as well.

 

I still stand by that the chaos codex is the superior among the two choices. More flashy stuff in loyalist dexes, but I feel the superior is their nemesi.

[djkest]

I would fix them by making them 2 points cheaper. Then again, our BIKES and RAPTORS are also too expensive, but there is no way GW is going to change that.

[Citizen Snips]

My idea to fix them was just make the mutations wargear you can buy for them. Drop the base of them to 20 points, than each thing to add on cost a set points, just like upgrading CSM. Maybe like:

 

Scout: 3 points each

 

Furious Charge: 5 points each

 

Fleet: 2 points each

 

Rending: 3 points each

 

Feel no Pain: 5 points each

 

Power weapons: 10 points each

 

This way, you can build them the way you want. Taking all upgrades would make them strong as hell, but you would also be paying more than Terminators. Possessed seem like fun, but the randomness of ability's and determining what Icon that would use does not make them a strong unit

[Lord Humongous]

Purchasing upgrades was exactly what you did in the 3.5ed codex. They didn't have those exact options, but the idea was the same- though you were limited to only 1 option. It worked rather well; I often took them with NO option (but with MoK), just to have "berserkers" with str 5 and a 5+ save.

[Smurfalypse]

I use possessed almost religiously and this is a topic of great interest to me. In my 1500 pt games i run 10, in 2k pt games i run 20 (single units).

 

Some of the big time negatives to possessed are very small things that come into play big time. The lack of frag grenades or some daemonic equivilent is just irritating for a pure assualt unit not to have, this little lack has cost me more than a few assualts. Rolling after deployment and not being able to outflank hurts big time as well, though if you were able to roll before you deploy this would make it one of the better abilities. The randomness of the entire thing is very frustrating sometimes but not an overall point of dislike as most of the time you will get something at least useful.

 

Some of the selling points is the fact that they are rock solid. Ask an ork player when you roll up feel no pain, you literally can run through anything in his army cept for the nob bikers. Even against them you can hold for a turn or two (depending on how many power klaws they have in the unit). MEQ cringe when power weapons are rolled up. Guard/Tau QQ when you get scout or fleet of foot. This is all under the assumption you get one of the useful ones vs your opponent. Str 5, invuln, great looking models, makes them somewhat fearsome enemies at times.

 

All in all they are ok and nothing more. Sometimes they can be over the top, most of the time they will be average, and sometimes they have awful set ups for who you are playing against. Will they win you some tournaments? No. Will they look beautiful on the table top when painted up nicely? Yes. Will they scare the hell out of some armies when you roll up the right power for their army? Yes.

 

If you play with friends for fun they are more useful, if you play tournies constantly you ar'nt gonna win much with them. I did ok at last years ard boys going to round two and getting two wins. List had 40 possessed, no terms, piles of base marines. Swept first round, did well in second (lost to double lash <_<) Point is, you can do ok but not great unless you rely on luck. Give em frag equal and they would be alot better.

 

Just two-cents from someone who uses them almost every game.

[Cornelias]

nice to here from someone with actual experience of using them for an extended time, i probably agree with everything you said. if your using them for fun in a friendly non competitive way they are alot of fun but the no frags is really annoying or i'd use them more myself ( i enjoy the drama of rolling for the ability).

[the jeske]

well it take this as a jibe at me and everyone who says they dont work . I tested possessed too , for tournament and friendlly setting [the difference being you check how a list does in 3 consecutive games against different opponents and the other you just gold fish against the normal builds without checking all the scenarios for all builds]. And they do not work . Yes when you play against army X and get roll Y it can be the awesome . only being random doesnt work like that. most of the time against a certain opponent its too easy to counter them [offten even with the optimal buff rolled] . This has been dont a thousand times , but kill wise unless they roll power weapons , possessed work like zerkers [only they arent scoring] . they need transports and still need to be baby sited by an HQ[what more or less means no DP].

 

as the big units go . Well first of all we dont see 20 man zerker armies run around , dont we? why ? well because in a setting where there is eldrad , lash and calidus a possessed unit may get boged down in terraint for 2 turns[or whole game in case of lash]. now if possessed were free [like the old 4th BA death company] , one could think about them . but they arent free , they cost pts and each point spent on them means less scoring units , less meta choices , less support . For a unit that is random ,and may end up doing nothing, its not worth it .