Wadey13 Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Oh boy!! that was a read and a half! i'm excited to find out the Alpha Legion's future part in the war. I don't want to spoil anything for people who haven't read it, so it's hard to explain but i really feel for poor Alpharius, he's so loyal he's willing to do what it takes to enact the Emperor's dream, in the long vision... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Its a good book hey :D But, was there truth in what the Cabal were saying? Or were the 20th Legion lead down the biggest wrong turn of all?? :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 But, was there truth in what the Cabal were saying? Or were the 20th Legion lead down the biggest wrong turn of all?? :( Never trust the tricksy pixies . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wadey13 Posted April 1, 2009 Author Share Posted April 1, 2009 I know yeah i thought about that this morning, i said, "What if... the cabal are just using them to do their bidding and stop the Emperor?!!" Sounds feasible, but i'd like to think not :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hazard Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 So it's a good book? I skipped it... Couldn't imagine an Alpha Legion book neing exciting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 It was just wrong on so many levels. Gw Tried and failed IMO to make a conspiracy theory book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 it was good you're just bitter cuz it was about a traitor legion :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 It was just wrong on so many levels. Gw Tried and failed IMO to make a conspiracy theory book. Yeah, this post does have some rather large spoilers on how to get a different interpretation of the book. I can't claim the credit for this, the work was done by one TheBaron, on the Black Library Forums. His full, and very, very long explanation can be found here. Well, once you analyse the book, and try to figure out who each Alpha Legionnaire was, and even the truth of the Acuity you come to a completely different conclusion than taking everything at face value. For example, what's the point of including the Bedlame Song (yes, it is an actual song)? Why are we told through the dream of the diorite heads to wonder if "all the heads are the same or different"? Why does the Chaos influence lead Grammaticus to the Alpha Legion? Why does a Black Cube, an unimaginably powerful weapon, appear out of nowhere as soon as Grammaticus attempts to call off meeting the Alpha Legion? If the Cabal is so great at reading the future, surely such a dramatic occurence would have been foreseen? Why do daemons only start manifesting when the Alpha Legion think Grammaticus is an enemy? Why does the Acuity kill Shere, but leave Grammaticus alive? And the question of questions, seeing as Alpharius/Omegon turned to Chaos, why did the Emperor win? Sure, to some this might just seem like pure mindless conspiracy-theorising, but it makes rather a lot of sense to me, and gives a radically different take on the ending of the book. To be able to come to two completely different, yet equally valid, interpretations of what exactly happened in a book, determining who played who while playing who, is much harder than some seem to give credit for. Read the book a second time, try to keep a tab on who exactly Alpharius is at each point in the novel. Pretty much, have a read through the link I posted, and see how much it changes what things mean in the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battle captain corpus Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 I really enjoyed it in the context of the series but wouldnt re-read it. I actually liked the geno-warriors the most to be honest! Corpus :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hazard Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 it was good you're just bitter cuz it was about a traitor legion :) Nah traitor legions can make for awesome books but Alpha? The most unmanly un-Astartes LEgion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyrion Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 I think Legion is a bad book because if the Alpha Legion was some kind of spy-network why did the Emperor didn't come and said: Hei guys i didn't made you for this ^_^, I have the Adeptus Assasinorum for that. Like he did with the Wordbearers? I think it was an experiment of GW and it failed because they made the Emperor make the simple rules like dont trust the aliens. Why? We kick their butts thats why! And then i have to read the the Primarch of a Legion getting said hei turn Traitor for the Emperor. And all he makes is saying ok lets do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NIGHT RIPPER Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 i definitly think the alpha legion have been led up the garden path, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorns Padawan Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 I read it the first time and was not overall impressed but have read it twice now and second time around, it made me realise what a clever job Mr Abnett had actually done with the book! I thought it was very well written and especially liked the Geno Chilliad! I can see why some people disagreed with it and why others really did not like it. I am not too sure still what to make of the ending regarding the Cabal. I still love the way Abnett describes the Astartes and he really does make them out to be the superhumans they really are. I am sure there will be another book regarding the Alpha Legion as they still have a big part to play in the HH. As for the AL being led astry, im still not so sure bbut definately like reading other peoples veiws and theorys regarding this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wadey13 Posted April 2, 2009 Author Share Posted April 2, 2009 Yeah Dan Abnett always does a great job, I LOVE his books!! it's heaven for me, combining two of my favourite things together: WH40K and a really good writer! I liked the chiliad too, he always makes everyone so human and i love the camaradierie he builds between the characters. that was one of the things i liked about Horus Risisng actually, you get to see Space Marines having a freakin laugh! its great! I can also understand why some people haven't enjoyed Legion as much. i reckon we're lucky they got Abnett to do it, it could've been bad but he's had all the experience of writing the sneaky Inquisitor trilogies. I liked it anyway, i thought the whole thing was really poignant Actually, thinking about it , i reckon thats been one of the key words at one of these meetings the writers must have about the Heresy series; poignance. Oh, that and irony! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 I think Legion is a bad book because if the Alpha Legion was some kind of spy-network why did the Emperor didn't come and said: Hei guys i didn't made you for this :D, I have the Adeptus Assasinorum for that. Like he did with the Wordbearers? I think it was an experiment of GW and it failed because they made the Emperor make the simple rules like dont trust the aliens. Why? We kick their butts thats why! And then i have to read the the Primarch of a Legion getting said hei turn Traitor for the Emperor. And all he makes is saying ok lets do this. Reasons why the Alpha Legion weren't criticised by the Emperor: what they did didn't go against the Imperial Truth they still conquered worlds quickly, and probably without many casualties not all Legions were "front-line" Legions, so perhaps the Emperor did recognize their strength As for why the Alpha Legion were so easily swayed, they are a very pragmatic Legion, not believing in the dogma of the Imperial Truth, and have a very open mind. Oh yeah, that and they got shown every possible future involving the Heresy, the ones where Horus won and where Horus lost . Now, if your sworn enemy comes up to you and gives you definite proof that someone is going to kill people, are you going to ignore them purely on the source of the info? The Alpha Legion are a very emotionless Legion when it comes to operations and outlook. They saw a way where their seemingly impossible end-goal of a galaxy free of Chaos could be reached, and they took it. They aren't as blinded by prejudice as the other Legions are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wadey13 Posted April 3, 2009 Author Share Posted April 3, 2009 Now, if your sworn enemy comes up to you and gives you definite proof that someone is going to kill people, are you going to ignore them purely on the source of the info? I did think when i read it, "couldn't be a vision created by the Cabal to trick the Alpha Legion into promulgating a future that was better for the Cabal, screw mankind they can die for us!" But really i just look past it for the pure enjoyment of the book. The Alpha Legion are a very emotionless Legion when it comes to operations and outlook. They saw a way where their seemingly impossible end-goal of a galaxy free of Chaos could be reached, and they took it. They aren't as blinded by prejudice as the other Legions are. I feel you brother, they think with their own, many heads. That's what I liked about them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 Isn't the fact that they are pragmatic and would do unseemly things for a good end missing the point though? Sure they would "turn" if it meant ultimately destroying Chaos, but why did they choose to put so much trust in the Cabal? Especially after that whole setup and ambush thing in the cave where they all teleported in, obviously very well planned out and then the next minute they agree to abandon all they stand for because of a vision created by some xenos they were ready to shoot minutes before? I really found that part very deus ex machina and it kind of disappointed me given the quality of the rest of the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyrion Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 [*]not all Legions were "front-line" Legions, so perhaps the Emperor did recognize their strength As for why the Alpha Legion were so easily swayed, they are a very pragmatic Legion, not believing in the dogma of the Imperial Truth, and have a very open mind. Oh yeah, that and they got shown every possible future involving the Heresy, the ones where Horus won and where Horus lost . Now, if your sworn enemy comes up to you and gives you definite proof that someone is going to kill people, are you going to ignore them purely on the source of the info? The Alpha Legion are a very emotionless Legion when it comes to operations and outlook. They saw a way where their seemingly impossible end-goal of a galaxy free of Chaos could be reached, and they took it. They aren't as blinded by prejudice as the other Legions are. which legion was not for frontline? the Iron Warriors? they where a frontline legion they just got spread as garrison because Perturabo let it happen Gulliman or Dorn said no i won't split my legion for garrisons. the point with future.....they are still xenos, lying destroying murdering xenos if my greatest enemy would come and show me this i wouldn't trust them. just in fact of the Emperor saying don't trust them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobo Willie Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 I think you guys forget the setting. I can easily say "If I walked into some weird Temple on a world I just conquered and a sword was drawing me to it, I totally wouldn't pick that up because I know it's a Daemon weapon." I can easily say this because I know what a Daemon weapon is. I know what Slaanesh is. But Fulgrim doesn't. He doesn't recognize the compulsion as he doesn't know about Chaos and just thinks he himself wants to pick it up. The same thing goes for Horus. Anyone can say "Well I wouldn't believe some fever induced vision after being stabbed by some sort of Chaos weapon." Except, again, Horus doesn't know that was a Chaos artifact or that the visions, which probably seem exceptionally realistic, are the result of the Chaos gods playing with his mind. It's easy to judge when you know what the cause is. Hell, I've had extremely lucid dreams that I didn't realize were dreams at all. Remember, he accepts what he is shown before he awakes, basically signing his soul away. By the time he could have realized they weren't real, the deed is done. For Alpharius, he just witnessed Chaos destroying an entire planet. He knows of Chaos but he doesn't know everything about it. I seriously doubt the Acuity was like watching a HDTV. What he saw, from what I gleaned when I read it, felt like reality. As though he was literally experiencing the future. Alpharius/Omegon knows psykers can sometimes see the future, and he knows from his own psyker that the Cabal were all very powerful psychically and very old. He knows that the Emperor's end goal is to destroy Chaos. After being presented with the "two" possible futures, he realizes the only way to defeat Chaos is to "betray" the Emperor. I really don't think it's that far of a leap for him to accept what he saw, as his understanding of what the Chaos gods can do is limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemisor Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 but heres the problem you're all asuming you know what the choice was that alpharius made. not once does he actually state what he has decided only that he will do " the only thing he can do" and a reference about "for the emperor " at the end of the book. for a book filled with lies and half truths why would he all of a sudden decide to start being honest, especially infront of xenos scum like the cabal. do you not think a legion as crafty and laterally thinking as the alpha legion would come up with a 3rd choice?. it takes more than some vission and some xenos telling them so for a legion like the alpha's to just take their word for it i think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted April 6, 2009 Share Posted April 6, 2009 which legion was not for frontline? the Iron Warriors? they where a frontline legion they just got spread as garrison because Perturabo let it happen Gulliman or Dorn said no i won't split my legion for garrisons. Umm... by definition, a garrison isn't frontline. A garrison is defending an already conquered area. So no, the Iron Warriors mostly weren't frontline, they watched over the conquered worlds. The Night Lords weren't front-line, they were kept in the rear to deal with any recedivists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobo Willie Posted April 6, 2009 Share Posted April 6, 2009 Night Lords were supposedly backwater tithe gatherers according to the fluff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted April 6, 2009 Share Posted April 6, 2009 The Iron Warriors and Night Lords were both "frontline" they just had other duties besides conquering, but I am pretty sure ever legion conquered planets, that was the main point of their existence. Also how exactly could the Iron Warriors earn a reputation for destroying fortresses if all they did was dig holes on already conquered planets? Heck Fulgrim thought the Iron Warriors could even breach the Imperial Palace (which they could/did), and I doubt this was because they were really good at proper administration of planetary DMV's. As to Legion, well although it doesn't explicitly say what they chose they did attack Imperial ships and we all know what side they ultimately ended up on but as I believe there's another book in the pipeline I'm sure Abnett will make up more cockamamie schemes for them to participate in. Oh and was I the only one that liked the human characters more than the rather bland Astartes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yaji Posted April 6, 2009 Share Posted April 6, 2009 I thought it was weird how quickly the Alphas accepted what the cabal showed them. If they after 1 viewing of some vision through a xenos device take it for absolute truth they don't deserve to be called space marines. Weaklings! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted April 6, 2009 Share Posted April 6, 2009 I thought it was weird how quickly the Alphas accepted what the cabal showed them. If they after 1 viewing of some vision through a xenos device take it for absolute truth they don't deserve to be called space marines. Weaklings! My thoughts exactly Brother! It was a little wishy washy. Even if the Cabal and indeed the Acuity believed they were seeing and then telling the truth, who is to say they were not deceived by another party? That they had not mis-interpretted that truth? That the Warp (which we know is unpredicatble) was showing the absolute future? That there isn't a third or more even more potential outcomes? For Alpharius and Omegon to buy that story, no matter how real it felt, they are fools. The Emperor himself knew of that future in all likely hood, hence why he worked away on a project at Terra, unknown to even Horus. If the Alpha Legion betrayed the betrayers then the Heresy could have been different completely and a 3rd way could have resulted (i.e. the Emperor not being crippled and interred within the Golden Throne). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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