Just read Legion

[Grand Master Tyrak]

I thought it was weird how quickly the Alphas accepted what the cabal showed them. If they after 1 viewing of some vision through a xenos device take it for absolute truth they don't deserve to be called space marines. Weaklings!

My thoughts exactly Brother!

 

It was a little wishy washy. Even if the Cabal and indeed the Acuity believed they were seeing and then telling the truth, who is to say they were not deceived by another party? That they had not mis-interpretted that truth? That the Warp (which we know is unpredicatble) was showing the absolute future? That there isn't a third or more even more potential outcomes?

 

For Alpharius and Omegon to buy that story, no matter how real it felt, they are fools. The Emperor himself knew of that future in all likely hood, hence why he worked away on a project at Terra, unknown to even Horus. If the Alpha Legion betrayed the betrayers then the Heresy could have been different completely and a 3rd way could have resulted (i.e. the Emperor not being crippled and interred within the Golden Throne).

 

I reckon they fit right in with the Heresy theme by doing that. Essentially, masters of deception and disguise that they are, they've overestimated their own abilities. It simply hasn't occurred to them that they could be outfoxed by the tricksy pixies. In that respect they seem more like Magnus the Red in how they came to be involved with Horus.

[Dorns Padawan]

I really liked the John Gramaticus character. I can't remember detail for detail but he was a pretty powerful psyker (obviously nowhere near as big as the Emp.) but as a human himself, how much of the future did he know without the Cabal giving him visions of it? He was desperate to seek out Alpahrius to set up the meeting so it makes me wonder whether or not he was duped by them Cabal or whether he really did know the truth about the future as he says it all starts with Horus somewhere in the book. How is it they knew to go for Alpharius and not someone like Sanguinius who was real close to Horus. Gramaticus' character really intrigued me, especially the way he worked for the Cabal and just his character in general.

With regards to the way both Alpharius/Omegon view and interpreted the vision, that still vexes mea nd am not sure what to make of it. As they were so against this Cabal as it was xenos yet agreed to board their vessel and view the future. I am not too sure what the Cabal is but i assume it is Eldar? If so, can't see them trying to see man exterminated as they themselves are opposed to Chaos and know of its workings.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

I am not too sure what the Cabal is but i assume it is Eldar?

 

I think it is a mix of xenos, but I'm sure there is at least one Eldar among them.

[Captain Idaho]

I reckon they fit right in with the Heresy theme by doing that. Essentially, masters of deception and disguise that they are, they've overestimated their own abilities. It simply hasn't occurred to them that they could be outfoxed by the tricksy pixies. In that respect they seem more like Magnus the Red in how they came to be involved with Horus.

 

Hadn't looked at it like that. I agree they fit the theme, but it hardly paints them in a good light. For all the critism they have of hubris, particularly other Legions (hint hint, Ultramarines) and they fall because of their own hubris - kinda embarrassing eh!

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Hadn't looked at it like that. I agree they fit the theme, but it hardly paints them in a good light. For all the critism they have of hubris, particularly other Legions (hint hint, Ultramarines) and they fall because of their own hubris - kinda embarrassing eh!

 

Maybe that's the point. :cuss

[Child-of-the-Emperor]

but heres the problem you're all asuming you know what the choice was that alpharius made.

not once does he actually state what he has decided only that he will do " the only thing he can do" and a reference about "for the emperor " at the end of the book. for a book filled with lies and half truths why would he all of a sudden decide to start being honest, especially infront of xenos scum like the cabal.

 

do you not think a legion as crafty and laterally thinking as the alpha legion would come up with a 3rd choice?.

 

it takes more than some vission and some xenos telling them so for a legion like the alpha's to just take their word for it i think.

 

Well said :cuss

 

Personally i believe they were the ones who dropped the shields on the Vengeful Spirit at the Siege of Terra :)

[Conor The Great]

I absolutly Loved Legion,and i'll tell you why

 

 

It deals with the Alphas,At the time they were the new kids,they fought in a new way,they werent the Blood thirsty World Eaters,they werent the Perfection seeking Emps Kids,they were a Legion yet to show any major flaws(and trust my,they all have flaws)

The Cabal chose the Alphas for that reason,they were young and inquisitive,they infiltrated a society and gained knowledge that other legion couldn't,mostly because dead men cant talk.

But the Cabal over looked something,Alpharius says that he has knowledge of Chaos when the Cabal try to explain it to him,This should have set alarm bells ringing straight away,A legion that infiltrates societies that has knowledge of Chaos,so early in its career?Anyone else smell Coruption?

 

 

Just saying,Alpharius knew what he was doing. :cuss

[NemFX]

I love the concept of this book.

 

I hate the writer.

 

Dan Abnett just isn't very good at it. He has a few good moments, but honestly I only got this book because it had the AL.

 

That being said, I think this is the first part of a smaller series (like the Horus books)

 

Here are a couple of opinions: I think someone in the Cabal has turned to Chaos and is trying to undermine things. I think that having the power of a true name is something the Alpha Legion take seriously (a precursor to the Gray Knights grimoire possibly?) which is why they say it's their biggest/most trusted secret.

[Annunsi]

Loved the book, myself. I've always liked the Alpha Legion, I dig that they are all about subversion and secrecy,(regardless of what some others may feel Space Marines should be). They're basically the legion that always has a couple of aces up there sleeve. Personally I think they continued with an agenda of their own.

[The Emperor's Champion]

I love the concept of this book.

 

I hate the writer.

 

Dan Abnett just isn't very good at it. He has a few good moments, but honestly I only got this book because it had the AL.

 

That being said, I think this is the first part of a smaller series (like the Horus books)

 

Here are a couple of opinions: I think someone in the Cabal has turned to Chaos and is trying to undermine things. I think that having the power of a true name is something the Alpha Legion take seriously (a precursor to the Gray Knights grimoire possibly?) which is why they say it's their biggest/most trusted secret.

:cuss

Abnett is the only good writer in the entire Black Library arsenal....

[Brother Aristeo]

To each his own, but I think Abnett has written the best of the Horus Heresy series thus far, with Legion being my personal favorite.

 

On another note, to all those who think that Alpharius Omegon was tricked by the Cabal: Did it not occur to you that the Acuity is 100% TRUE?

 

As the reader, you know how the Heresy turns out and how things end up in the 41st millennium. That's the exact vision that the Acuity provided. Go back and read it again carefully if you doubt me. The Acuity did not show 2 different possible futures, but the future at 2 different points in time, both of which we know come to pass. If the Cabal was trying to trick Alpharius, why did it show him the truth?

 

The Cabal proposed 2 choices: Fight for the Emperor and the last vision in the Acuity would come to pass, or join Horus to help him win and Chaos would burn itself out and take Humanity with it.

 

The Cabal came up with the second choice because they realized that the Warmaster was the lynchpin in the overall scheme. They were able to see what would happen if he lost, so they figured that if he won that he would take down the human race with him and leave the galaxy free of Chaos. Exactly how they came up with this theory, I have no idea.

 

It's really a gamble on their part, especially because the Cabal never counted on the Alpha Legion turning on them. Now you have to wonder why the Alpha Legion joined Horus knowing what they did, and Horus still lost. Who tricked who? :(

[Captain Idaho]

Thing is, it appears that the Acuity was correct in it's prediction of stagnation, but that Chaos would take over is far from true. Necrons, Tyranids... they are all threats to the galaxy bigger than Chaos domination. Humanity is not a spent force and anything could happen. These variables, as well as others (Thorian idealodgy included) means to accept the Acuity as having a 100% accurate prediction is breaking from the key tennets of the Warp; unpredictability.

 

How come Eldrad Ulthuan didn't see this coming? How come there are only 2 outcomes? How come the Emperor's own plans to defeat Chaos were not taken into account, especially if he won? How can the soul-less denzions of the Material plane, the C'tan chief amongst them, be taken into account by warp visions when they are not affected by it at all, are we just to ignore their capabilities to defeat Chaos (the Cadia Pylons people)? What about the Tyranids who are a threat to everyone, where do they fit in? What is to say that an external influence is not giving the Acuity false visions (like Tzeentch) to get the Alpha Legion to fall?

 

All these questions remain un-answered or even acknowledged by the Acuity, meaning it either was concealing their possibilities from the Primarch twins and even the Cabal, or was not aware of them. Either way, the Acuity is not to be trusted, as it is either manipulating events itself or not as clever as it thinks it is...

 

Hence why I think the Primarchs were foolish to follow the Acuity at all. They may have made their plans separate from what we are lead to beleive, tricking the Cabal even, but the fact they made plans that made them traitors based upon pretty flimsy evidence is damn foolish. If they had any sense they would have consulted the Emperor immediately, travelling to Terra to establish what was going on.

 

The fact they didn't shows a reckless arrogance and foolishness beyong measure!

[Conor The Great]

Is it possible that the Cabal were so fixated on Chaos being the threat that it blinded them to an even greater threat,namely the Tyranids and the Crons?

this seems kind of foolish since the Eldar were the ones who had fought the Necrons in the first place.

I think that in general the Cabal totaly underestimated Humanity.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

How come the Emperor's own plans to defeat Chaos were not taken into account, especially if he won?

 

Because then the Eldar would have to give up the galaxy permanently, and they're just too damn arrogant to admit it's not theirs anymore. :)

[Brother Aristeo]

Thing is, it appears that the Acuity was correct in it's prediction of stagnation, but that Chaos would take over is far from true.

The Acuity didn't show Chaos taking over, the Cabal said that's what would happen.

 

See, that's what's tricky about this book. You have to separate the Acuity from what the Cabal says about it. The Acuity shows the future, but then the Cabal interprets this and draws their own conclusions about it. They are convinced that Chaos will take over based on what they see in the future (41st millennium) and that Horus winning will stop it.

 

Alpharius Omegon draws a very different conclusion, although he hides this from the Cabal (he's good at keeping secrets, you know). The only person he couldn't hide it from was John Grammaticus (natural lie detector). Didn't you ever wonder why he killed himself at the end?

[Captain Idaho]

Good point. But I still don't think they made the right choice.

 

But then I am an Ultramarines player who plays by the (Codex) book. I would have informed the Emperor of what I saw, and devise my plans accordingly..!

[Wadey13]

Thing is, it appears that the Acuity was correct in it's prediction of stagnation, but that Chaos would take over is far from true. Necrons, Tyranids... they are all threats to the galaxy bigger than Chaos domination.

 

 

I didn't realise this book would cause such a stir! I like to keep things simple when reading, so I can just take the book for what it is and enjoy it, but since you guys have raised some pretty good points it got me thinking...

 

One point I thought is that the Tyranids may be a new "plague" if you like (remember the Destroyer plague), created/sent/directed to devour all emotive life that is capable of sustaining warp-life. For example, it is emotions that really make the Chaos gods strong, like the birth of Slaanesh because of the Eldar's excess. They now keep such a strict regimen on their emotions so that they cannot be used to strenghten the Chaos gods again.

 

The Tyranids are, if you like, akin to a perfect civilization; there's no jealousy, there's no envy, there's no lust no desire to kill, only to feed and sustain. In a twisted way it makes sense they are purpose built to finish off all the emotive races. That, and the shadow in the warp... perhaps it is their absolute lack of emotion which promulgates this? Perhaps, it is something they were "built" with to aid them in their destruction AND, protect them from the attentions of the warp-gods (if you like the idea that they were created to finish off the emotive races and wither Chaos away).

 

The Necrons are a totally separate thing. I honestly don't think anyone saw them coming (or, re-coming).

 

But I have no doubt that the Emperor had a grand design to finish off Chaos. I don't think this is something the Acuity knew of - think back to the fluff regarding the creation of the Primarchs, they were created with the greatest of Pyschic wards and shielding, to keep their creation a secret. Although... they were eventually discovered, so it's not impossible to think the Acuity would not know of His Grand Designs.

 

I came to a point when I was reading False Gods or Galaxy In Flames where I feel that I realised the Emperor had already achieved his God-hood. When Euphrati Keeler destroys the warp-thing on the Vengful Spirit, she does so only by calling upon the Emperor, that's all. I think this is going to be one of the most important parts of the entire Heresy series, as it is here that we realise the Emperor simply must be a god, whether by His own machinations back on Terra, or through the worship of millions, He has become a god. I think this chapter is such a lynchpin because if the Emperor truly has become a god, we know why the Chaos gods are so bent on on the Heresy and His destruction - not just because lots of death betrayal and fear would replenish some of the Chaos god's lost strength - but because they are fearful of Him, the threat He poses to them, and they belive that by killing Him, He would no longer threaten them.

 

ANother idea supporting all this theory is that why would the Emperor issue such a clear edict on the absolute destruction of all faith systems that are encountered? Because by removing their worshippers, and by making people simply forget them , the Chaos gods would simply cease to exist.

 

I'm finding it hard to get all these thoughts out of my head in as clear and cohesive manner as I'd like, but I hope you understand it. Besides I'm really enjoying it! All this has been sort of thoughts that I'd never given form to, putting it down in writing is really helping me.

[Almighty Nocturnus]

First off, thanks to "Wadey13" for showing me this thread. Good or bad, Legion is the only HH book to get me really stirred up with :cuss reaction to the writing. As "The Emperor`s Champion" said, Abnett is usually pretty solid and I enjoyed everything I read by him before Legion - which I guess made it all the more shocking that he and his editors would include such a grevious error (for lack of a better word) in the story.

 

I think we can safely put the Tyranids and Necrons out of the conversation - as "ConorThe Great" said. If anything, they were probably beyond the scope of time (Necrons) and space (Tyranids) for them to scrye.

 

Before I shred the ending, let me say a few positive things: Well, basically, I liked the whole book up until the ending - what a great way to portray the secretive Alpha Legion. I also liked the idea of Omegon and the "we are all Alpharius" concept of deception...and the "That`s all you get." line before slicing the captain of the Lucifer Blacks in half.

 

I can even accept that the Cabal had an honest agenda. They obviously have superior technology with the ability to terrform and scrye into the future and it really seems that their agenda is to "manage the universe". I can even accept that Alpharius accepted what he saw in the acuity. I can. Abnett tries to to describe how moved they are at the images and the profound effect it has on them.

 

And I think it is interesting, yet irrelevant, to discuss whether the Alpha Legion are loyal to the Emperor or siding with Chaos. In this point, I disagree with "ConanTheGreat": it doesn`t matter whether Apharius had already sided with Chaos (or just Horus plan of rebellion) at that point...

 

Why didn`t the Alph Legion exterminate the Cabal? That`s the error. That`s the mistake. That`s the what the *@%#! moment.

 

Okay, you accept that the Alpha Legion will do anything to protect the Emperor and are thus going along with the Cabal...then why are they allowing the Cabal to manage the fate of all humanity instead of the Emperor? After looking into the Acuity, Alpharius should have said, "Okay. Thank you for that relevation. Alpha Legion - exterminate them! No survivors!

 

Okay, you accept that the Alpha Legion are protecting mankind`s future and aren`t sure whether it`s the Emperor or Horus that will accomplish that better. Then why are they letting a rag-tag collection of Xenos pit the Emperor and Horus against each other? It`s obvious that the Cabal doesn`t particularly care for humanity. After looking into the Acuity, Alpharius should have said, "We cannot allow you to dictate the fate of mankind. Alpha Legion - Exterminate them! No survivors!"

 

Okay, you accept that the Alpha Legion had already switched to Chaos or were in the process of siding with Horus. The Cabal is obviously against Chaos. Plus , they had prevented any major Chaos incursion into the galaxy for tens of thousands of years...they sound like a more potent threat to Chaos than the Emperor! Even after revealing a way to slay the Emperor, a Chaos-corrupted Alpha Legion would surely not allow the Cabal to exist and oppose their plans in the future. After looking into the Acuity, Alpharius should have said, "You fools. It was you who has been manipulated. Alpha Legion - Exterminate them! No survivors!"

 

That`s my argument. There is no way to explain why the Alpha Legion would allow a subversive group of xenos to continue directing the fate of mankind, the Emperor, or Chaos. Why do they just leave the Cabal at the end? Is the game of 40K missing the most powerful army/codex of them all, Codex: Cabal? Are they the real main players on the galactic stage?

 

The only explanation, perhaps the Alpha Legion are trying to infiltrate the cabal and exterminate them in one stroke?

 

Either that, or Dan Abnett himself is an Alpha Legionaire and he is currently tricking everyone who read that book....until the sequel comes out.

 

Almighty Nocturnus

[Gv0zD]

I agree with Almighty Nocturnus.

I liked the book, it was an interesting reading.

The one thing that seems strange is why did Alpharius (or Omegon, or both) so easily believed in what they were shown and told? And even if the vision was true, why did they let those xenos go? I think that after making his choice, Alpharius should order the elimination of the Cabal's HQ without telling them what he chose. The Cabal said that the best way to minimize the consequences of the heresy was to let Horus win and then destroy all humanity within several years. How could Alpharius left those word unpunished?!

[Boskie43]

My only thought as to why he didn't order the descruction of their HQ comes down to:

 

The enemy of my enemy is my friend - albiet short term for what I can gain from them.

 

From what I've understood from reading the cabal wasn't exactly backing horus/bringing down humanity (control yes, destroy not really persay - maybe I'm a bit optimistic thinking they don't mean the absolute destruction of humanity and simply the major influence humans play in the galaxy). And the way the Alpha legion so closely guards knowledge in a way as absolute power I feel that Alpharius looked at the Cabal in a somewhat useful manner. If they've helped once and are no real threat to us - lets allow them to continue their self proclaimed mission and I will do mine w/ the ability to take out the HQ at will now while also possibly being able to use their knowledge again. I think its all a knowledge game that Alpharius feels, in arrogance, that he can continue to use them as a weapon of his own... At least thats kinda what I gained from it.

[Brother Gabe]

My thinking is that what the Cabal showed the Alpha Legoinit is just like the what Erebus showed Horus. They were shown what would happen if they sided with chaos, but neither of them knew that what they were doing was causing what they did not want to happen.