Ork Bike Nobs: Ah, but there's a catch...

[yergerjo]

another aspect for controlling the bikers not killing them is to use your drop pods empty (or full) and force them through terrain corralling them into your streams of fire.

[drakkhenkc]

The other strategy I've heard nice things about is spitting a few Thunderfire Cannon shots (of the subterranian variety) at the squad every turn and forcing them to make dangerous terrain checks and rolls to move through cover to slow them down and to deny them the 3+ cover save from turbo-boosting, but I've only started using one of these babies myself.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression bikes don't take difficult terrain checks - any time they are supposed to roll to move through difficult ground, they get their full movement value and just take a dangerous terrain check, right?

 

True, they wouldn't be able to turbo-boost, but ork bikers get a 4+ cover save all the time from the Exhaust Cloud rule.

 

I'd say TH/SS termies in the absence of tanks. Or double multi-melta landspeeders.

[Mal]

When dealing with nob bikers you have 2 options.

 

1. devote a lot of firepower or very expensive unit to dealing with them.

 

2. tie them up with cheap speedbumps and ignore them.

 

There is NOTHING that will comfortably take them out that is still cheap. At least not in the marine army.

 

My preference however is to take a unit of vets armed with power weapons (yes power weapons, NOT power fists), the reasoning behind it is to get massed I4 attacks and ensuring you get the charge on them so they are stuck on I3, vanguard should work well for this. Plant enough attacks on them, its CC so no cover saves, they are power weapons so no armour saves and they ignore armour saves so no FNP saves, plus you hit them first.

 

*EDIT* The other advantage to vanguard over assault termis is that the vanguard are a lot more maneuverable making it harder for the nobz to avoid them and allowing the vanguard to move on to other targets once they have dispatched the nobz.

[Captain Idaho]

I'd Landraider up a 5-man Honour Guard, lead by a Master with Relic blade and a Chaplain, all for the counter charge. That should make a dent! :D

[Khorneeq]

Hi,

 

In my last game against nob bikers I've used rhinoses and forced them to take two morale checks a turn.

When they passed first one and attempted Death or Glory! one died underneath my tracks so others didn't risk.

When they started fleeing I made sure there was my model somwhere near them until end of the table :D

[Brother Evar]

What about 8 vanguard w/ x2 PW and relic blade with a chapie in a crussader or redeemer? LR Shoots speed bump then VGV's charge. Would that work?

[Chucku]

What about 8 vanguard w/ x2 PW and relic blade with a chapie in a crussader or redeemer? LR Shoots speed bump then VGV's charge. Would that work?

 

Vanguard sound cool but they need to have 1 hit = 1 kill capability or the Ork player will spread hits out. Take TH/SS, initiate the combat so they lose bonus charge attacks and Furious Assault, weather the >I1 attacks (not power weapons) and put the hurt down. You may well lose the Vanguard, but even if you lose a couple of Marines before they strike at I1 you're still getting 18 attacks at 4+, wounding 9 and killing 7-8.

 

With Relic Blades you're getting 24 attacks (no attrition) at 4+, getting 12 hits and doing 6-8 wounds (counting the Warboss' T6). They spread those wounds out among the Nobs, then wipe you out with PKs.

[foster]

Hi,

 

In my last game against nob bikers I've used rhinoses and forced them to take two morale checks a turn.

When they passed first one and attempted Death or Glory! one died underneath my tracks so others didn't risk.

When they started fleeing I made sure there was my model somwhere near them until end of the table :)

 

I'm impressed, that tactic would of never have crossed my mind since I've always believed that making a Nob squad run from tank shokk is impossible, since there's always a warboss. I'll be sure to try it out against my brother's Nob bikers in future.

[Sternguard sergeant McColl]

Speeders, attack bikes, dreads (If not Klaw happy, the only Nob Biker cheese list I played against had the only PK on the warboss in the squad, big mistake when a DCCW comes around) being able to stay at range and distract them is very fun. a 180 PT Dual HB speeder unit can just fly backwards and laugh as they struggle to catch it. And a TFC can lay down the hurt when they start taking dangerous terrain tests and not turboboosting. Another thing i would recommend highly (And this lends itself to every strategy I have contributed in this topic) keep your most important units IN RESERVE. while still remaining mobile. Ork nob bikers are very expensive (40 PTS, correct?) so it's very possibly to drown them. I get very frustrated just thinking about how to counter them, working around them. I hate having to tailor or de-generalize. And to react to the whim of the Ork is disgraceful. Also remember the retreat 3D6 so if you can get them to retreat give them hell (I can see great crusade cooking up some crazy tactic with LSS made for this.)

[Mal]

What about 8 vanguard w/ x2 PW and relic blade with a chapie in a crussader or redeemer? LR Shoots speed bump then VGV's charge. Would that work?

 

Vanguard sound cool but they need to have 1 hit = 1 kill capability or the Ork player will spread hits out. Take TH/SS, initiate the combat so they lose bonus charge attacks and Furious Assault, weather the >I1 attacks (not power weapons) and put the hurt down. You may well lose the Vanguard, but even if you lose a couple of Marines before they strike at I1 you're still getting 18 attacks at 4+, wounding 9 and killing 7-8.

 

With Relic Blades you're getting 24 attacks (no attrition) at 4+, getting 12 hits and doing 6-8 wounds (counting the Warboss' T6). They spread those wounds out among the Nobs, then wipe you out with PKs.

 

Just so you know, when allocating wounds to multi-wound models you are not allowed to 'spread your wounds out' if 2 wounds are caused one nob MUST die (note wound allocation here only works for models with difffering equipment, all the others are taken together)

[Thaylen]

What about 8 vanguard w/ x2 PW and relic blade with a chapie in a crussader or redeemer? LR Shoots speed bump then VGV's charge. Would that work?

 

Vanguard sound cool but they need to have 1 hit = 1 kill capability or the Ork player will spread hits out. Take TH/SS, initiate the combat so they lose bonus charge attacks and Furious Assault, weather the >I1 attacks (not power weapons) and put the hurt down. You may well lose the Vanguard, but even if you lose a couple of Marines before they strike at I1 you're still getting 18 attacks at 4+, wounding 9 and killing 7-8.

 

With Relic Blades you're getting 24 attacks (no attrition) at 4+, getting 12 hits and doing 6-8 wounds (counting the Warboss' T6). They spread those wounds out among the Nobs, then wipe you out with PKs.

 

Just so you know, when allocating wounds to multi-wound models you are not allowed to 'spread your wounds out' if 2 wounds are caused one nob MUST die (note wound allocation here only works for models with difffering equipment, all the others are taken together)

 

 

Yes that is true, but any ork player worth his salt will kit each and every one of those Nobs differently. For just that purpose. This will mean that you will in fact have to inflict approx 10-12 wounds (1 on each plus a few on the warboss) before anyone starts dying.

 

As for an answer to these guys, the only one I can think of in any 'dex is Tau. Pathfidners w/ Markerlights+ Broadsides w/ Railguns. You could probably get 2 units of each for the same amount of points he spent on bikes. Use Markers to kill cover and Rail guns to negate armor & FNP. The ork players only out will be if he bought Cybork bodies for the 5+ Invuln. You should be able to 3-4 Bikers per turn with em.

[Chucku]

What about 8 vanguard w/ x2 PW and relic blade with a chapie in a crussader or redeemer? LR Shoots speed bump then VGV's charge. Would that work?

 

Vanguard sound cool but they need to have 1 hit = 1 kill capability or the Ork player will spread hits out. Take TH/SS, initiate the combat so they lose bonus charge attacks and Furious Assault, weather the >I1 attacks (not power weapons) and put the hurt down. You may well lose the Vanguard, but even if you lose a couple of Marines before they strike at I1 you're still getting 18 attacks at 4+, wounding 9 and killing 7-8.

 

With Relic Blades you're getting 24 attacks (no attrition) at 4+, getting 12 hits and doing 6-8 wounds (counting the Warboss' T6). They spread those wounds out among the Nobs, then wipe you out with PKs.

 

Just so you know, when allocating wounds to multi-wound models you are not allowed to 'spread your wounds out' if 2 wounds are caused one nob MUST die (note wound allocation here only works for models with difffering equipment, all the others are taken together)

 

 

Yes that is true, but any ork player worth his salt will kit each and every one of those Nobs differently. For just that purpose. This will mean that you will in fact have to inflict approx 10-12 wounds (1 on each plus a few on the warboss) before anyone starts dying.

 

As for an answer to these guys, the only one I can think of in any 'dex is Tau. Pathfidners w/ Markerlights+ Broadsides w/ Railguns. You could probably get 2 units of each for the same amount of points he spent on bikes. Use Markers to kill cover and Rail guns to negate armor & FNP. The ork players only out will be if he bought Cybork bodies for the 5+ Invuln. You should be able to 3-4 Bikers per turn with em.

 

Exactly. This was my experience playing a Nob Biker player in a tourney two weeks ago. Each biker was unique, hence he could allocate wounds liberally in the fashion mentioned above.

[Captain Idaho]

There is a plus point to these abuses to the wound allocation system (which is stupid and long winded anyway but that is a different subject);

 

if your opponent spreads those wounds around the unit in shooting, they become seriously weakened in close combat. As an example, my favoured Honour Guard unit does around 11-15 wounds from a charge on an Ork Nob unit with a Waaagh banner, which is enough to wipe the unit out potentially. If the Nobz are all weakend down to 1 wound, then the return attacks will be reduced, making an easy fight ahead of you...

[asugradinwa]

Bikes never have to make difficult terrain checks. Instead they treat it as dangerious and take a wound on a roll of 1. However they can still turboboost. Heavy flamers don't insta kill and allow a FNP reroll. Meltas are where it is at , however you still have a 3+ or 4+ cover save meaning that for each Melta shot fired the possibility of a kill is only 29% if they have a 3+ cover save and you are NOT running vulkan. Hitting a unit with a thunderfire sub shot followed by a vindicator shot tends to help the best, however the vindicator shot still only has a 43.5% chance of killing each model under the blast because of the cover save. The problem with using Telion is that ONLY 1 wound can be placed on the Painboy due to wound allocation, and then the painboy still has a cover save so it will take a min. of two turns before the FNP rolls are gone. A 200 point 5 man TH SS assault terminator squad can take out about 6 Nobs on the charge, more if you are running salamanaders with Vulkan and he is charging with them.

[Mal]

Bikes never have to make difficult terrain checks. Instead they treat it as dangerious and take a wound on a roll of 1. However they can still turboboost. Heavy flamers don't insta kill and allow a FNP reroll. Meltas are where it is at , however you still have a 3+ or 4+ cover save meaning that for each Melta shot fired the possibility of a kill is only 29% if they have a 3+ cover save and you are NOT running vulkan. Hitting a unit with a thunderfire sub shot followed by a vindicator shot tends to help the best, however the vindicator shot still only has a 43.5% chance of killing each model under the blast because of the cover save. The problem with using Telion is that ONLY 1 wound can be placed on the Painboy due to wound allocation, and then the painboy still has a cover save so it will take a min. of two turns before the FNP rolls are gone. A 200 point 5 man TH SS assault terminator squad can take out about 6 Nobs on the charge, more if you are running salamanaders with Vulkan and he is charging with them.

 

Providing they dont get mushed before they strike... thats why I was avoiding hammers and fists, take advantage of your higher initive (just be sure to get the charge).

 

Lets check the point difference here shall we?

 

10 Vanguard Vets with powerswords and jump packs comes to 475 points.

 

9 nobs with cybork bodies on warbike with pain boy comes to 530 points, and thats before you give them any specail weaponry or additional wargear.

 

If you get the charge on them, 10 bolt pistol shots, 6 hits, 2 wounds 1 save, then in combat 10 vanguard will do a total of 40 attacks hitting on 4+ so thats 20 hits, then wounding on 5+ so about 7 wounds (being 1/3rd of a wound generous) of those 7 wounds say 2 saves, so thats 5 wounds caused, so thats a total of 3 nobz dead. now 6 nobz and a painboy fighting back, 27 hits back, hitting on 4+ well be generous and say 14 hits, wounding on 4+ so thats 7 wounds, 2 fails so thats 2 dead vanguard.... vanguard win combat by 4 points... so orks test on a 3... odds are they will fail and run.. exactly what the vanguard want, they have a 50% chance of running the nobz down and killing them to a man.

 

Not bad for a cheaper unit, and it leaves you with 8 more vanguard to go molest some ork units.

 

Of course this is with just the basics of both units, both sides can beef up their power quite considerably, but the cost of the unit then becomes really high.

[asugradinwa]

Under the situation you decribed above the orks would not lose a single model. Why? Wound allocation. Any Nob Biker list seen in tournament play will be fully filled out with different equipment on each model so you must cause 10 wounds (Not taking into account the warboss) before 1 model would die. Why? Because the wound allocation rules in close combat are the same as during shooting.

 

Here is how it would actually work:

 

10 bolt pistol shots: 6 hits, 2 wounds, 1 save missed, 50% the other save is missed due to feel no pain. Okay lets say one biker takes a wound

 

Assaults: 40 attacks, 20 Hits, 8 wounds, one goes on each of the non injured riders (you can do this because each model has different equipment and therefore can be assigned wounds individually)

 

So you add in the previous wound from shooting and the ork player doesn't lose a single model. Now there are anywhere from 15-31 power claw attacks comming back at you. At least 5 will wound, if not more then 10 if everyone has a power claw (doubtful but...) and if you even survive combat you are automatically running.

 

So you just spent 475 points to not kill a single model in a Nob Biker Squad. Congrats!

[Mal]

if you've given them all power klaws then how are you going to set up 9 nobz with different equipment, the cybork bodies are a unit upgrade so that leave you the boss pole, banner and eavy armour...

 

well the armour is pretty pointless on bikers with a perma 4+ cover, 5+ inv and 4+ FNP so you will be left with 7 models with the exact same equipment....

 

saying your going to give them all different gear and give them all power klaws is completly different things. not to mention that many power klaws will boost the unit cost by 225 points alone.

 

now go back and read the part that says 'Of course this is with just the basics of both units, both sides can beef up their power quite considerably, but the cost of the unit then becomes really high.'

 

*EDIT*

 

I have gone back and checked exactly what you can do with the nob bikers for giving different equipment, you can get 7 with differnt items and 2 with the same + painboy but that comes to 798 points to do it with powerklaws.... and thas before taking the boss into account.... when you add him in with upgrades your looking at close to 1000 points for that unit. now in a 1500 tourny... spending 1000 points in an ork army on 11 models is plain stupid. no two ways about it.

 

So anyone who says they will max out different equipment on nob bikers with all PK's plus warboss really needs to look at just what it will cost them.

 

my unit (with upgrades) comes to less than half and will knock off about half of their wounds (more with better upgrades), combine that with a couple of tac squads rapid firing into them and the nob bikers suddnely become a lot less of a threat....

 

Ultimately what im trying to say is that while they are nasty, and a very serious threat... if you look closely to max them out is pointless as it will only weaken the rest of the army.

[asugradinwa]

Thats the problem though. You never see a basic Nob Biker list. It is possible through the use of ammo runts, sluggas, and the two combis to have 9 different wargear sets along with 9 power claws. I've played in 3 Indy GT's this year and a couple other RTTs. I've only seen ONE out of the 15+ Nob Biker armies not have individual equipment on each and every model. Using vanguard against them is a waste of points. The only think I've ever seen cause real damage is TH/SS terminators for space marines.

 

Though I did see a Dark eldar raider tank shock a unit off the table after a failed death or glory.

[Mal]

You seem to have completly missed my point... for someone to give out THAT much in teh way of differeing equipment AND have a war boss in there, they will loose the best part of 2/3rds of their points...

 

Now 2/3rds of a space marine army can deal out a massive amount of firepower, espically if they dont have swarms of boyz to worry about with lootas and other nasites also... its THEN that you send in the vanguard.

 

40K requires the use of tactics... and lets face it, sending ANY single unit against a unit as kitted as that biker unit would be can be considered suicide without softening them up.

 

Personally I dont like TDA's for 'nilla marines, they are seriously lacking in mobality so the bikers are pretty destined to get the charge, you really don't want to let that happen, my approach takes advantage of the strengths of the marine and weakness of the ork while preventing them from using their nasty special rules.

[asugradinwa]

In my 3 games against Nob Bikers they've never got the charge on my terminatators. Why? Because they are in a land raider. The problem with the Nob Bikers is that they can generally engage 1/2 of your army. By turboosting the first turn they get a 3+ cover save, a FNP roll for most things that get through that. Then they shoot and assault the following turn. In 3 games the most I've been able to kill off before they hit my lines is 3 Nob Bikers, thats still 6 Bikers the PainBoy and the warboss.

 

The only way to stop them is to insta kill them or hope for some great luck from the dice gods if you are playing space marines.

[foster]

In my 3 games against Nob Bikers they've never got the charge on my terminatators. Why? Because they are in a land raider. The problem with the Nob Bikers is that they can generally engage 1/2 of your army. By turboosting the first turn they get a 3+ cover save, a FNP roll for most things that get through that. Then they shoot and assault the following turn. In 3 games the most I've been able to kill off before they hit my lines is 3 Nob Bikers, thats still 6 Bikers the PainBoy and the warboss.

 

The only way to stop them is to insta kill them or hope for some great luck from the dice gods if you are playing space marines.

 

I know this is a stupid question but I have have to be sure. Even though turboboosting grants 3+ cover saves from shooting, do they get that cover save when assualted from lets say an Assault termie squad with TH/SS?

[greatcrusade08]

Why not tank shock with a redeemer,

Flame them to bits with S6 AP3 cover ignoring, flamestorm cannons and those you dont get, can be munched by some hammernators led by Calgar running out the front of the LRR.

 

GC08

[Viperion]

Why not tank shock with a redeemer,

Flame them to bits with S6 AP3 cover ignoring, flamestorm cannons and those you dont get, can be munched by some hammernators led by Calgar running out the front of the LRR.

Because I quite clearly stated TWICE in this very topic that I don't have, and can't get, any vehicles? Apart from that it's a great idea. :P Doing it with vehicles is significantly easier, but I don't have any!!!!!

 

Reading FTW people....

 

Viperion

[Ryzouken]

*Sigh* I guess I'll toss out the absolute best way in the current ruleset of 40k to completely and totally ruin a Nob Bike unit/list.

 

Deploy/move to the second floor of a set of ruins.

 

Yeah, it's that simple. Bikes cannot move to floors higher than the first and so, they can never be in base to base contact with you to assault. Stand around and pelt them with bolter shells and bad words all game while they cry. You even get a cover save from their abysmal shooting, not that you need it since you're rocking 3+ armor or better.

 

If an objective based game, deploy objectives accordingly. If no ruins, see all prior posts.

[Captain Idaho]

Why not tank shock with a redeemer,

Flame them to bits with S6 AP3 cover ignoring, flamestorm cannons and those you dont get, can be munched by some hammernators led by Calgar running out the front of the LRR.

Because I quite clearly stated TWICE in this very topic that I don't have, and can't get, any vehicles? Apart from that it's a great idea. :( Doing it with vehicles is significantly easier, but I don't have any!!!!!

 

Reading FTW people....

 

Viperion

 

 

You're gona lose then, every time! You really need vehicles in Space Marines lists to win now-a-days (it's not 4th edition anymore)... There is a reason people keep suggesting it! :angry:

 

I would reckomend that if you are adamant about not using vehicles that you take as many heavy weapons as you can because your list will be too static to put the drop on Nobz bikers. Instant kill a couple of them, which even with their cover saves, is still possible. Such an important and expensive unit really laments the loss of a single model, kill 3 and they are less scary and more vulnerable to counter attack.

 

If I was taking on those bikers using my Landraider, a Chaplain and a Master with Relic blade/Storm shield, I would use Honour Guard with Relic blade Champion and a Chapter Banner. Seriously guys, I have the dice right with me and I will do 6 mocks to see how many wounds they do on the Nobz bikers with a Waaagh banner:

 

Results are in:

 

1st attack = 9 wounds

2nd attack = 12 wounds

3rd attack = 13 wounds

4th attack = 16 wounds

5th attack = 15 wounds

6th attack = 11 wounds

 

Average = 12.67

 

Now the combination of Waaagh banner and bikes really puts things in the Orks favour (WS5 and T5) meaning that my tag team of Relic blade high WS heros plus Chaplain do slightly less damage than against lesser foes, but the results are promising in my eyes. Not included the Landraider (which can be used for other things and is a separate unit in it's own right), you are spending 495pts on your counter attack which while alot is not too bad considering you are a Space Marines player and have to spend rougly 150pts on a single character anyway.

 

Against a full Nobz Biker mob it looks like the 12 wounds won't be enough to kill more than 2 Nobz, with return attacks being immense, but look at it from another angle; a good player should be able to put some fire on them easily enough, meaning if the Ork player has abused the wound allocation system badly enough previously you can be killing off important models and large numbers of single wound models.

 

How? Well if you are like me and escort the attacking Landraider with a full Tactical squad in a Rhino, you can easily combine the attack against the Nobz whilst the rest of your army gets on with the business of fighting the rest of the Ork army.

 

Tactical squad rapid fires, along with their meltagun and twin lascannons from the Landraider. You would be unlucky for not a single Nob to be instant killed. The Bolter fire (including boltpistols from the Honour Guard) averages roughly 2 wounds. So we have 1 dead Nob and 2 single wound Nobz.

 

Take 12 wounds off these guys with your Honour Guard attack and you kill the 2 wounded Orks with the 1st 9 wounds, whilst putting a wound apiece on every model in the unit. Then the last 3 wounds are applied, killing another 3 Nobz. In 1 turn that is 6 dead Ork Nobz, with the last 4 on a single wound.

 

That doesn't take into account other factors, like the odd long range lascannon snipe or previous turns of fire, which will mean the Honour Guard will do even more damage to the unit on the charge. Of course a Warboss will be in there, but then if you pulp the unit he is alone and not as much of a threat and easier to kill off.