Why is there no Guilliman Heresy?

[Combat_Vet]

Greets,

 

I know:

 

1) that Horus revolted against the Emperor.

2) that Malcador (as Regent) gives command to Dorn

3) the Emperor gives "full and absolute" command of all loyal forces to Dorn

4) the Emperor slays Horus

5) Dorn places the Empeor's broken body into the Golden throne

 

What I am wondering:

 

1) how did Guilliman get to be in charge?

 

What I'm thinking:

 

1) Guilliman sees that the chance to sieze power is coming

2) Gulliman "pads" his losses at Calth

3) Gulliman skates through the war with minmal losses

4) after the war Guilliman out numbers the other legions (some by as much as 1000 to 1)

5) Guilliman uses his posistion of power to force the other Primarchs to follow him

6) Guilliman further uses his power to ensure that a majority of all new chapters will be made from his genes

7) 10,000 years later and Guilliman's chapter(s) still out number the other space marines (some by as much as 1000 to 1)

 

Any thoughts? I'm thinking of building a new army and was going to use the info as a background for them. I'm just not sure how far off it is.

 

Better days,

 

++EDIT - I know that the Ultramarine's are "the most loyal" of all marine legions. It is easy to be loyal to the rules, if you are making the rules - EDIT++

[Brother Emelias]

Greets,

 

I know:

 

1) that Horus revolted against the Emperor.

2) that Malcador (as Regent) gives command to Dorn

3) the Emperor gives "full and absolute" command of all loyal forces to Dorn

4) the Emperor slays Horus

5) Dorn places the Empeor's broken body into the Golden throne

 

What I am wondering:

 

1) how did Guilliman get to be in charge?

 

What I'm thinking:

 

1) Guilliman sees that the chance to sieze power is coming

2) Gulliman "pads" his losses at Calth

3) Gulliman skates through the war with minmal losses

4) after the war Guilliman out numbers the other legions (some by as much as 1000 to 1)

5) Guilliman uses his posistion of power to force the other Primarchs to follow him

6) Guilliman further uses his power to ensure that a majority of all new chapters will be made from his genes

7) 10,000 years later and Guilliman's chapter(s) still out number the other space marines (some by as much as 1000 to 1)

 

Any thoughts? I'm thinking of building a new army and was going to use the info as a background for them. I'm just not sure how far off it is.

 

Better days,

 

++EDIT - I know that the Ultramarine's are "the most loyal" of all marine legions. It is easy to be loyal to the rules, if you are making the rules - EDIT++

Guilliman wanted just to remain honorable to his call. Plain and simple, I think. Not everyone is tempted to take power and usurp it. Sometimes the most simplest of answers is just that. As far as the formation of the Codex is concerned, I liken this to an epiphany; think of the guy who invented the television. He was a farmer who looked upon a field he was plowing and thought of being able to send radio waves into a series of signals that could be converted into a visual stimulus. With regards to Guilliman, he saw a need for organization. His was the best and easiest to follow at the time. So, why not follow something that's easy to follow yet gives a sense of purpose?

 

This is purely my conjecture, FYI. But, I feel that this is somewhat close to what is considered canon (though, I may be incorrect).

[Combat_Vet]

I can see the point that his ideas were sound. I will not argue against his abilities as a leader. I just see many examples of violence and the threat of violence to bring about his goals. Also, seeing as many roman themes are woven into the fluff, it makes sense that someone would step forward to take charge of the Imperium.

 

Better days,

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Oddly enough, Guilliman's policies meant the Imperium could never be great again, but also meant it wouldn't over-expand, have a Golden Age and then collapse upon itself, as all empires normally do.

Interesting to debate whether he should have done it. :(

[Captain Lucas Raziel]

AHHHHHHHHHHH, i HATE Guilliman! there was no heresy because he was Scared that Dorn would kick his A**

 

Seriously, there was no other heresy because Gulliiman could have tried it again, but the other races would be too far aware, and there was a empire already carved out for him

[The Emperor's Champion]

AHHHHHHHHHHH, i HATE Guilliman! there was no heresy because he was Scared that Dorn would kick his A**

 

Seriously, there was no other heresy because Gulliiman could have tried it again, but the other races would be too far aware, and there was a empire already carved out for him

I cannot enumerate the ways in which you make none of the sense.

[Captain Lucas Raziel]

i just plain hate Guilliman.

 

And my point is:

1) The Empire is already made, so guilliman doesn,t have to break off

2) he isn't effected by chaos

3) Eldar etc, now knew what a heresy meant for the universe.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Captian Lucas Raziel Posted Yesterday, 11:38 PM

AHHHHHHHHHHH, i HATE Guilliman! there was no heresy because he was Scared that Dorn would kick his A**

 

Actually, Dorn was the one who backed down after being fired upon for not accepting Guilliman's reforms. Still doesn't exactly put Guilliman in a good light though.

[Combat_Vet]

[

Actually, Dorn was the one who backed down after being fired upon for not accepting Guilliman's reforms. Still doesn't exactly put Guilliman in a good light though.

 

 

That was actually how I came up with the idea for my chapter. I think it clearly shows at least subtle force on Guilliman's part. "listen and obey or be branded a traitor", and he was the only one with the numbers it would take to enforce his will.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

but guilliman wasnt alone in the idea of enforcing the codex, the debate among the loyal primarchs waged, with the majority favoring the codex...i believe it was something like:

pro-codex: guilliman, corax, khan

con-codex: dorn, russ, vulkan

missing or dead: ferrus (killed at the drop site), the lion (held at the rock), sanguinius (killed at siege of terra)

 

so while it is a tie, the might lies with guilliman and dorn backs down and embraces the codex when the full implications of what refusing it are shown.

 

russ does his own thing cause he is awesome like that.

 

WOLF LORD Kieran

[_Caesar_]

Not to mention that Guilliman was also acting with the full authority of the High Lords of Terra. They loved his plan for the Imperium. So it wasn't really Guilliman making a power play so much as him enforcing the will of the Imperium. That, to me, makes him a dutiful servant of the Imperium and not a power hungry usurper. Now, if the High Lords had rejected his plan and he decided to "insist" on it, that would be a different story. :)

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Not to mention that Guilliman was also acting with the full authority of the High Lords of Terra. They loved his plan for the Imperium. So it wasn't really Guilliman making a power play so much as him enforcing the will of the Imperium. That, to me, makes him a dutiful servant of the Imperium and not a power hungry usurper. Now, if the High Lords had rejected his plan and he decided to "insist" on it, that would be a different story. :)

 

there was no high lords at this point.

there was a council of terra, but guilliman was running them after the heresy. (i doubt many if any made it through the horrors of the siege)

 

WLK

[Combat_Vet]

Lest we all forget, history is written by the victors.

 

I am not saying Guilliman was a lunatic follower of chaos. Not really even a power hungry villian bent on domination. I was just reading "between the lines" and noticed that the Ultras are "the greatest", "the most honorable", "the templates for marines", etc. and wondered how he came to power. Dorn should have been in charge because the Emperor said so. Next thing you know, the Fists are being shot at for not following Guilliman. He had to have taken charge while Dorn was out chasing chaos.

 

Following the siege of Terra:

1) all chaos does not count for this arguement (sorry)

2) Dark Angels split in half and then fought internal civil war

3) White Scars, Imperial Fists, Blood Angels suffer huge losses during the siege

4) Wolves fight on Prospero, suffering losses (including entire 13th Company)

5) Sallies, Iron hands, and Raven Guard decimated at Istvaan

6) **Ultras are the largest legion and fight against a portion of another legion and miss the war?

 

Guilliman sets the codex out and requires that the legions split up. When new legions are created, it is Ultra stock that makes up the majority. It's been written that some of these legions still owe fealty to the Ultras. That means in effect they still had (have) thousands more marines than anyone else. Also, most legions have a home planet or are fleet based, the Ultras maintain at least eight sytems. While this doesn't mean much, it has the potential to mean a lot. It could mean that they are the only legion allowed to have thier own portion of the galaxy. They do not have a "world" they have multiple systems.

 

Another way of looking at it is this; how long would the Ultras be the most loyal if the High Lords decided to retire the codex, or if the Adeptus Terra decided that the Crimson Fist's gene-seed would now make up 75% of all new marine chapters.

 

Just something I'm tossing around. If it offends anyone, I apologize. I'm building on this for fluff, so please feel free to either add to the concept or tear down the points that you find wrong.

 

Better days,

[Brother Emelias]

Bah, no offense, bro. Just healthy debates. :rolleyes:

 

But, with regards to the High Lords? I honestly think that they're of the position of "Dude. Be glad he's on OUR side!" I mean, I'm positive that they wouldn't be so foolish enough to want to overturn the Codex due to some lame political reason. The only REAL reason to overturn it would have to be something truly monumental. It's like the Berlin Wall falling. People aren't going to change a lifestyle without some type of significant reason. Just cuz something's better doesn't mean people will accept it right away (read: eradicating Communism in China). Plus, fluff wise, Big Blue represents the epitome of the far right wing military general. And, when it comes down to it, the only reason why he'd want to do anything tyrannical, if you wanna go the fluff route, is if somehow he's gotten intouch with some Chaos taint. And we all know that'll never happen anytime soon.

 

But, once again, it's all my conjecture. Besides, I support a 2nd Founding DA chapter. Like I care. I'm busy trynna get this jerk to admit he's a shmuck for offing my Primarch, but he keeps on babbling about "oh blah blah he'll forgive me, I know he will, blah." What about my PUNK BE GOOD STICK, HUH?! YA THINK THAT'LL FERGIVE YA?!

[Marshal Rohr]

Dorn was never to rule anything. To give you a reference Tiberius in Kingdom of Heaven has the same job Dorn did, he was to guard the city, but not to rule it. Guilliman came with a plan that forced ambition to counter-act ambition, in so doing it was just what the High Lords needed to put the Imperium back together. Dorn was still in a rage over the Emperor's fall and was in no stable mindset to listen to anything, much less from his 'peer'. Eventually Dorn realized his pride was getting the best of him and he embraced the Codex, because he knew it would only divide the Imperium even further if he continued on his obstinate path. There is no continued animosity between Dorn and Guilliman after that, most of the animosity if made up by players trying to read between the lines.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

but guilliman wasnt alone in the idea of enforcing the codex, the debate among the loyal primarchs waged, with the majority favoring the codex...i believe it was something like:

pro-codex: guilliman, corax, khan

con-codex: dorn, russ, vulkan

missing or dead: ferrus (killed at the drop site), the lion (held at the rock), sanguinius (killed at siege of terra)

 

A common mistake. A simple "for or against" doesn't really apply here, for example Corax was pro-splitting the Legions (what your chart refers to) but strongly anti-breaking up the Astartes fleets. It's much more complex than yes or no.

 

how long would the Ultras be the most loyal if the High Lords decided to retire the codex

 

Impossible, just in the same way it's impossible to enforce the codex. You can't kill an idea. The Dark Mechanicus and Chaos Cults have been proving this for a long time.

 

Mind you, it's not just Guilliman's work. I think all the Loyalist Primarchs have their notes on whatever bit of warfare they specialise in included in the Codex, and even some traitor Primarchs have bits in there, ie Perturabo.

[Combat_Vet]

Good points and great movie referance. If Dorn is the same as Tiberius, would that not make Guilliman the same as Guy? He did not take the throne by force, he took it by threat of removing his force from the fight. Whoever has the man power has the ability to make decisions.

 

I think that to say that Dorn "embraced" the codex it a stretch. He lost a bulk of his remaining men at the Iron Cage, and a large portion of what remained left on an eternal crusade. You could also say that Dorn remained on Terra to ensure the safety of the Emperor against the ambitions of Guilliman. His legion was always the Emperor's Praetorians, he just suffered too many losses. Between Phall, Terra, and the Iron Cage, he simply lacked the forces to retain control. He split what remained after being fired upon by imperial forces. He did not suddenly realize the Guilliman was right, he realized the Guilliman had won. This is when we see Dorn begin to make as many contacts as possible. The Fists have been called lapdogs since the war. This could just as easily show that Dorn realized his brother's plans and fought silently to limit his power, or at least to know about Guilliman's plans.

 

Even the Iron Cage is suspect to me. Dorn was determined to beat Perturabo. They fought to a standstill, each side suffering losses. Then (only then), did Guilliman arrive to "save" Dorn from himself. I see this as a common tactic throughout time. Wait until the battle is almost over, then enter the fight and take the glory. If Dorn had been victorious alone he could have displayed his commitment to the imperium. Guilliman knew this and needed to show that he was needed to organize and lead the Imperium.

 

I understand that the codex cannot be undone. I was trying to drive home a point. The Ultramarines are the "best and brightest", "most loyal" and serve as an example to all other marines. But this is an easy task when 75% of marines are from your chapter. It is easy to follow the rules, when you make the rules.

[ArcticFox]

This is really a great discussion and it's giving me ideas for fluff for my own army. (Black Templars)

 

Suppose, for the sake of argument, we accept that Guilliman really did claim authority that wasn't his due. Let's also supposed that Dorn did, in fact, back down to avoid yet another civil war within the Imperium.

 

The Imperial Fists were broken up into, among others, the Black Templars chapter, which unlike the other chapters that came from the Imperial Fists, do NOT follow codex at all. In fact, as most of you know I'm sure, the Black Templars may number as many as five or six thousand marines, all living on fleet ships and scattered about on crusades. Indeed, the Black Templars is a chapter that rivals the size of the old Legions.

 

So let's imagine that when the Second Founding was taking place, Dorn charged the Emperor's Champion, Sigismund, to lead his new Black Templars chapter and make them strong, and ignore codex but keep quiet about it, and to stand ready should the Ultramarines and their related chapters ever attempt to make a grab for power. Dorn couldn't do it himself because that would have been too visible, too obvious... But the Black Templars...

 

Which would make the Black Templars the watchdogs of the other Astartes chapters to be certain they remain loyal, and have the numbers and the muscle to enforce it. In 10,000 years they have not needed to act in this capacity, so they crusade around the galaxy destroying other threats to the Imperium in the meantime.

 

...I like it.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Whilst I might agree with you more than I will admit (I run an IF DIY Successor Chapter after all), I'll point out a few more things in an attempt to waterproof your argument.

 

Suppose, for the sake of argument, we accept that Guilliman really did claim authority that wasn't his due.

 

Guilliman did not claim authority that wasn't his. Any Primarch had the right to have his voice heard in the Council of Terra, and indeed the same is true with the High Lords - if a Primarch returns, he has the right to participate in the High Lords.

 

What is interesting is why none of the other surviving Loyalist Primarchs ended up with the same degree of influence as Guilliman had.

[Brother Emelias]

What is interesting is why none of the other surviving Loyalist Primarchs ended up with the same degree of influence as Guilliman had.

Hmmm... that's a mad valid point. Wow. I didn't think of it from that angle.

[Combat_Vet]

I agree that it seems odd that Guilliman had so much power following the Heresy. But, I can easily see the fact that he alone had an intact legion. Who else had the power to stop him? Combined the other primarchs would have (at best) had an equal amount of troops.

 

Another thing about Guilliman, is that his ideas were sound. He gave the Imperium what it needed at the time. The idea of 10,000 marines following one man was still a horror to the council (even if Guilliman had a hand in choosing the council). His codex were a mixture of proven combat doctrine. He had the most men and he was willing to divide them. That alone could provide the needed influence to accept his ideas.

 

What I find interesting is that so many follow up chapters were created with Guilliman's gene-seed. It was a continious build up of forces loyal to him. Perhaps by now it is too late to stop the cycle.

 

I have never seen anything that shows the Emperor giving any kind of authority to Guilliman. His power doesn't even come from a Regent. It comes from the Council. Who knows how that council was created. As pointed out earlier, it is doubtful that the men chosen by the Emperor still sat on the council following the siege of Terra.

[Seahawk]

From the new HH book (Tales of Heresy), one reads that the strengths of certain primarchs keeps them powerful. It lists a few, but for Guilliman it was tactical and logistical brilliance. If nothing else, the other primarchs simply couldn't logistically organize in big enough terms to try and organize the Imperium. He had a good plan for the entire shebang to give to the council. Hard to argue with that I'd imagine.

 

For us, it'd be like the absolute math whiz in class. Who are you gonna listen to/copy your answers off of? The guy that says "My answers are right, no matter what!" though the claim is questionable, or the one that, when you read what he wrote, makes completely perfect sense and turns out to be the right answer.

[_Caesar_]

there was no high lords at this point.

there was a council of terra, but guilliman was running them after the heresy. (i doubt many if any made it through the horrors of the siege)

 

WLK

 

 

In the Index Astartes it mentions the High Lords several times in conjunction with the period that Guilliman formed/implemented the Codex Astartes. This may be retconned by the new HH fluff, but maybe the transition form Council to High Lords happened quickly after the Siege? In any case whether Council or High Lords, I don't think you can make the leap that Guilliman just took over control of them. I know that he became Lord Commander of the Imperium which would have put him on the ruling body that was to become the High Lords of Terra, but we don't know how much of the Council survived intact (though I would wager quite a few as I doubt many would have thrown themselves into the fray of the Siege of Terra). Not to mention that Guilliman's very Codex sundered the might of the Astartes Legions (a move that only served to strengthen the power of the Council/High Lords) and dispersed his own Legion across the galaxy. Not exactly something you want to do if you angling for power.

 

 

@ 200Plus

 

In Index Astartes II it mentions that Dorn was granted a vision while enduring the pain glove. The vision bolstered his hope as it showed that the Emperor still watched over him and the Imperium. It goes on to say that Dorn knew there were die-hards in his Legion that wouldn't accept being broken up into Chapters and that their number would be above the prescribed Codex Chapter size so he went with these forces to the Iron Cage. As well as a test of faith (ie Legion-wide pain glove), it sounds like Dorn was trying to give his followers a noble way to die rather than risk them causing problems when he did split his Legion up.

 

With regard to gene-seed, indeed the majority of SM foundings are from Ultramarines gene-seed, but that makes sense given the fact that so much was available after the HH, especially in comparison with other Legions. Also, don't forget that Ultramarines gene-seed is the most stable and pure out of all the Space Marine Chapters. In a society that abhors mutation and needs the loyalty of its most stalwart defenders, its no surprise that such gene-seed would be used in lieu of others.

[Hrvat]

The entire period of heresy and post-heresy has been written in so many ways it is impossible to know what is truth and what is not.

 

First to say something in the defence of Guilliman.

 

He was not considered among the greatest primarchs even though he had liberated most worlds (not to be mixed with victories) yet it was his legion that was championed by the Emperor during the Great Crusade.

 

To say that Ultramarines came out of the Horus Heresy with light casulties is in my opinion wrong. They had three major engagements on the way to Terra. The Battle of Calth against a powerful and dedicated foe, The Battle of Eskrador (heavy losses) and Battle of Tallaran (9/10 UM involved in that battle died).

 

The fact is that at the moment when HH ended they did have most marines simply due to not having to endure the Siege of Terra or Istvaan Massacre but they were far from pristine shape. Cosidering everything at the moment of arriving to Terra I doubt there were many more UM than there were DA.

 

The UM advantage came from the period of Scouring when they could call upon eight entire systems to replace their losses while other legions were restricted to one or two worlds.

 

 

Guilliman was the best man for the job of holding the Imperium togather due to his skills.

 

Will add more, have to go...

[Skirax]

There was a big deal about this before, and it was all 'Dorn should have been the best, he WAS the best, so he should be the proginator Primarch of half the Imperium!