_Caesar_ Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 Caesarby the 3rd Founding the UM gene-seed had already proved to be one of the purest and most desirable I see this as no more than propaganda that has become cannon and legend over time. Did the Emperor really spend so much time creating the perfect genes, only to have them weaken in less than a century? Taken into account the genes were engineered it would still take vast amounts of time for them to mutate (especially considering the fact that far advanced technology was used). The only way around that is to say the Empeor was flawed. He did not create the perfect soldiers at all. From this point it is only a short hop to the real (mind blowing) statement that Guilliman was superior to the Emperor. Hence the sons of Guilliman actually continue to expand on his devious plans of galactic treason :P Mind you I don't really believe this :D I'm just playing devil's advocate at this point. I think I get where you're coming from 200plus. You're "reading in between the lines" of the codices and rulebooks and theorizing about what "really" happened, much like a historian's attempt to bring an objective mind to biased sources. I guess where my point of contention is and where I agree with Captain Idaho and others is that, according to the printed word, Guilliman was a noble and honorable hero who, through no machinations of his own, ended up in a position to bring stability and prosperity to a sundered Imperium and did so as a dutiful servant and not as a power hungry usurper. He was a Cincinnatus and not a Caesar. I would argue that all the fluff thus far backs up this viewpoint and I disagree with the fluff being viewed at as propaganda (not trying to start a cannon war or anything, just stating how I interpret the fluff). That being said, your interpretation of the fluff to find a conspiracy where most would only see a simple tale of heroism is admirable and certainly speaks to your ability to see beyond the surface of a matter and see it in more than one dimension. You must be an Alpha Legionnaire (or a devotee of Tzeentch!). ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 If only Malcador had lived, we could have avoided all this. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NemFX Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 Dorn's legion got decimated in cunning traps. Guilliman was the only one with the resources available to hold things together. He put aside his pride to hold things together for everyone. While the rest of the primarches each went off on their little revenge crusades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combat_Vet Posted April 7, 2009 Author Share Posted April 7, 2009 That being said, your interpretation of the fluff to find a conspiracy where most would only see a simple tale of heroism is admirable and certainly speaks to your ability to see beyond the surface of a matter and see it in more than one dimension. You must be an Alpha Legionnaire (or a devotee of Tzeentch!). :P Me? I'm a loyal son of Russ. I just happen to be trying to find a decent hook for an IF second founding chapter. :D Although I am really enjoying where this thread is going. I was worried for a second that people would think I was trolling, slamming into Guilliman. The beautiful part of GW fluff is that it is open to so much interpretation. Most people blame this on the writers not being very good, I disagree. It's made for people like us, to take the fluff and bend it to our needs. Better days, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 Guilliman became Lord Commander Militant Of The Imperium Of Mankind.....technically making him more powerful than Horus was for a while there....of course then he voluntarily gave up that position and went back to being a Primarch after he had finished securing and reorganizing the Imperium. I'd say that's a BIT beyond the administrative duties of just making the Codex.... Became is a bit light. He used treats and violance (Shotting at his brother Marines) to "Become" Lord Commander Militant. I agree that in his mind he did it for the right reasons (Hell so did Horus at the start)... But I think the facts play out right that he forced his hand with a "Its either my way or the death of the Imperiam" you pick logic. Not much of a choice for those loyal to the Emperor. I think the most logical statments for this have already been covered as to how Dorn acted after this. 200 said it much better then I can. However, to say he just happened to become the Lord Commander Militant is a far bit of a reach... You do see Guilliman was doing what had to be done right? The other Primarchs were in no condition to rule anything, and logistics, administration, and rebuilding are Guilliman's strongpoints. If all the Primarchs have an aspect of the Emperor, Guilliman had his ability to raise something from nothing. Everyone in this scenario is loyal to the Emperor, and it is almost certain Guilliman called Dorn a traitor in a heated argument, with no true basis, and it was likely in a semi-private manner. Guilliman didn't organize the Imperium against the Fists, they did that themselves because they were so supportive of Guilliman's goals they took matter into their own hands. Dorn wasn't in his right mind so he couldn't see the truth of Guilliman's statement's and idea's. Again, the Guilliman vs. Dorn argument is divisive and it shouldn't be. There is no conspiracy. All Primarchs are entitled to a seat on the Council, he was the only one who acted on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 And to add to your arguement, Guilliman was likely good friends with Dorn, regarding the information we do have. Dorn was considered well by many Primarchs, and Index Astartes Imperial Fists even mentioned some examples; Khan gifting him with 100 horses (wonder what he did with them? Probably fed them to Russ...) and a statue of him alongside the body of Guilliman. Dorn and Guilliman work alot with eachother, not just the Iron Cage but also fighting together to get rid of the remaining Iron Warriors. I'd imagine that the arguement they had are typical of two close brothers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combat_Vet Posted April 7, 2009 Author Share Posted April 7, 2009 On that part: I see this as a brilliant ploy on Dorn's part. "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer". With the amount of control and influence Guilliman had after the Heresy Dorn would have found it impossible to dislodge him. Guilliman was Supreme Commander, or at least on his way to the title. Guilliman controld the council, the council controlled the gene-seed, hence Guilliman controlled the ability of the others to create more marines. Dorn's only hope of defending the Emperor (he was Praetorian), would be to remain close to the palace. Both of the known chapters to come from the IF were crusade chapters. The did not settle and were kept safe by being mobile. Dorn alone remained on Terra to ensure no "accident" could happen to the Emperor. We also see Dorn helping all the groups within the Adeptus Terra. He was doing two things. ONE - keeping his brother Guilliman in sight and TWO - making solid connections within the council and Adeptus. You could also say that he was creating a more solid connection with the Custodes. He had to "embrace" the codex and Guilliman's plan. It would have split the Imperium if he did not. What better way to show that you are following directions, than to be the most outspoken champion of the cause. "Dorn was loyal to the codex, second only to Guilliman himself", this is not coming to understand the need for the Codex. Dorn accepting the Codex would mean he followed it, being suddenly an outspoken champion is suspicious. Maybe it is not nearly so black and white. Maybe he did love and trust Guilliman and only wanted to act as a check and balance for his power. The simple fact is the Emperor placed Dorn in charge and Guilliman took the power away. Maybe Dorn realized that Guilliman was better at the task and simply wanted to limit the amount of control Guilliman held. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 I don't think anyone opposed Guilliman becoming Lord Commander of the Imperium, just the enforcing of the Codex Astartes. I think it was more like Guilliman:"alright guys, you rebuild your Legions while I take over mopping up this mess since I've got the men to spare" Primarchs: "Alright. Good luck." Guilliman:"BTW, I wrote these rules for the Legions to follow so this madness doesn't happen again" Primarchs:"HEY NOW! Hold on there. We can handle our own men just fine!" Guilliman:"must stop possibility of Heresy 2.0!!!" Primarchs:"Leave us alone!" Guilliman:"GAH!!!!" Primarchs: "GRRR!!!!" Guilliman:"HULK SMASH!!!!" Primarchs:"Okay, okay! Fine. We'll do it your way.... No need for Hulk to smash..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combat_Vet Posted April 7, 2009 Author Share Posted April 7, 2009 ^ LOL - that's priceless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 Did the Emperor really spend so much time creating the perfect genes, only to have them weaken in less than a century? You do remember that a lot of the primarchs were touched by chaos when they were scatteret throughout the galaxy in their incubator capsules? He used treats and violance (Shotting at his brother Marines) to "Become" Lord Commander Militant. An imperial ship fired on an Imperial Fists ship because they did not want to split their Legion into smaller Chapters. It had nothing to do with Guilliman becoming Lord Commander Militant. I see this as a brilliant ploy on Dorn's part. "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer". Oh you have got to be kidding me... The simple fact is the Emperor placed Dorn in charge and Guilliman took the power away. When the emperor placed Dorn in charge, could that possibly have been in a situation where 9 traitor Legions were heading for Terra, Dorn was present, and Guilliman was at the far end of the galaxy? The Index Astartes never mentions that part, so I am not sure where to check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 Plus The Emperor needed a fortress defended...THAT is why he chose Dorn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combat_Vet Posted April 8, 2009 Author Share Posted April 8, 2009 Some of the Primarchs were touched by Choas. But, would the Emperor not have noticed that when he found them? I'm not real sure the point with this one. An Imperial ship that falls under Guilliman fires on a marine vessel and it was at the ship commanders iniative? i doubt they would have fired without some kind of guidance. I never ever kid ;) Dorn was given complete and unconditional command of all Imperial forces by the Emperor prior to the siege. Guilliman was off in the east and was unable to make it to the defense of Terra. Some say he was held up at Calth (but the forces that attacked him WERE involved in the siege). Some say he was held up at another battle were he suffered severe losses (but still maintained 3/5 of all "loyal" marines). How could he be held up at another battle when his father and his father's empire were under attack. We can blame the powers of the warp for holding him back and allowing the Word Bearers to make it to the siege. Or, we can say that he held back to ensure that he and he alone would have the manpower required to ensure his dominance. Man, conspiracy is so much fun. <_< ++EDIT - Dorn was not chosen because he was there. He was not chosen because it was convenient. Rogal Dorn was the Emperor's Praetorian. EDIT++ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 Because Dorn was good with forts.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combat_Vet Posted April 8, 2009 Author Share Posted April 8, 2009 and he was good with forts <_< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 He was given complete Tactical Command ON TERRA. Huge difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combat_Vet Posted April 8, 2009 Author Share Posted April 8, 2009 Where does the ON TERRA come from. I've never read that. It could change a lot of my views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 He was never in charge of anything but the defense of Terra..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 He was put in command of all military forces for the Siege, thats always been described as his power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combat_Vet Posted April 8, 2009 Author Share Posted April 8, 2009 I understand that he was in charge of the siege and that defensive works was his strong point. But, where is it written that his power (given to him by Malcador and directly from the Emperor) was limited to Terra? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 Where has it ever hinted at him being in charge of anything else? The Emperor basically just said "Dorn, I've got some loonies coming to knock down my door. You're in charge of keeping them out. You're good at that sort of thing." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 In the IA's and source books it says he was placed in charge of the defense, not the military. He had final say in the defense, but on day 55 when he teleported back with the Emperor's broken body, those powers stopped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combat_Vet Posted April 8, 2009 Author Share Posted April 8, 2009 I will admit that I draw heavily from the "Collected Visions" art book. It may not be the best source, but it is what I have. So, my ideas (heresy I know) may be wrong all together. In the book it says: Malcador to Dorn - "of all the Primarchs I value you opinion the most" "he begged Dorn to take command of the still loyal legions and deal with Horus" Emperor to Dorn - "you are to take full and absolute command of all the remaing loyal troops of the imperium" " you must make immediate preparations for the coming assault" the Wolf and the Khan - the Imperial Fist's primarch had been appointed commander-in-chief of all the loyal forces of the Imperium All this points to him not just being given command of Terra (but it could mean that as well). Does it say somewhere that those power stopped on day 55? I'm not trying to be a sarcastic or argumentative. It really makes a difference to my entire fluff if Guilliman had any sort of right to assume command. Other than the fact that he had 3/5 of the living (loyal) marines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 Well, in context the only loyal troops available were on Terra and its talking about preparing for the Siege. Also, even if it wasn't strictly applying to the defense of Terra, Dorn went a little crazy and abandoned this post in order to chase down the Traitors, and Guilliman picked up where he left off since no one else could. Dorn would have resented Guilliman for not being there in his anger and grief and Guilliman would have blamed Dorn for letting the Emperor fall, both accusations would be completely unfounded and ridiculous, but its how they would have felt. Eventually after Dorn calmed down and Guilliman had time to evaluate what really happened, they stopped fighting and Dorn decided to support Guilliman, because if Dorn supported him he knew together they could get more done. To throw a Watchmen reference in there, Guilliman is Ozymandias (the vision, minus the megalomaniacal streak) and Dorn is Dr. Manhattan (minus the whole god-like abilities thing), together they bring peace to the world by joining forces. Ozymandias may not be the best reference because HE was trying to seize power for himself, but was acting out of consideration for the greater good. However, Dorn did get it both ways. The Black Templars have disregarded the Codexes organizational doctrine, but have also evolved into a bastardized version of the original Legions. While they remain true to the goals of the Legions, they have mutated into the GrimDark version. I don't think that was Dorn's intention, but more of Sigismund's interpretation of his vision. Logically, the Black Templars were not always the way they are now, there would be no divergent chapters during the second founding, but they turned into this over time. Same goes for the Blood Angels, at first they would have been codex immediately following the Reformation, but slowly changed to their current incarnation. This is of course just my theory, but I believe it has something to go on as Templars were original Codex Marines with company markings denoted on their chest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combat_Vet Posted April 8, 2009 Author Share Posted April 8, 2009 I read through some of the IA articles. I was happy with some and disappointed with others. The IA for the Imperial Fists shows a tactical arrow on the preheresy marine armor. That can't be right, can it? The IA for the Crimson Fists wasn't much help. Although it does show what happens when Dorn's sons stop being mobile (I won't get into that theory!) The IA for the Ultra's did have a really important line "Roboute Guilliman vowed that the Emperor's realm would not fall and took it upon himself to hold it together" I'm trying to stick with "modern" fluff so I'm not looking into the 2nd edition or older. I had always assumed that the Fists, Wolves, Ultras, Blood Angels, and Dark angels were considered loyal between the drop site massacre and the siege of Terra. As the Raven Guard, Iron Hands and Sallies were decimated at Istvaan, Dorn would have been in command of five legions plus naval and army (guard) forces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 The IA for the Imperial Fists shows a tactical arrow on the preheresy marine armor. That can't be right, can it? Why not? Ultimately the Codex Astartes was compiled from mostly preexisting ideas, so SOME Legions had to use the Tactical arrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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