Why is there no Guilliman Heresy?

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Guilliman was the best man for the job of holding the Imperium togather due to his skills.

 

Indeed. However, it stopped the Imperium from ever being great again by forcing it to stay defensive, in order to prolong its life (unlike real-life empires). Was it worth it?

[Brother-chaplain Astador]

Yes

 

The survival of humanity is more important than the greatness of it

 

A second age of greatness cannot come if humanity is wiped out, no?

[Combat_Vet]

Ah I see the argument.

 

Does "stagnant" humanity remain humanity.

 

Being defensive means no growth. While an ever expanding empire would constantly improve (in theory).

 

Being as so much for the game is taken from actual history I would say this.

 

The fall of the Emperor is the fall of Rome (or early Greece), hence we are now (41K) in a dark age. When Guilliman assumes command he in effect locks humanity within this dark age. By saving mankind, he actually dooms them?

[Captain Idaho]

Well actually if we read the 40K rule book we can see that the Imperium went against the the idea of protectionism in the "Age of Redemption" which caused the current age "The Waning". (page 125)

 

This period of time has exhausted much of Imperial might and is not the fault of Guilliman's Codex and changes. It is the fault of the High Lords and perhaps even more so, the Adeptus Ministorium for sending all their might to war and leaving nothing in the tank for later rounds.

 

Guilliman created the Imperium from the ashes of the Heresy and if you look at the time line on page 125 of Rule book, you can see that the Imperium prospers for several thousands years, through "The Forging". Things go wrong along the way but ultimately (and I quote);

 

"The borders of the Imperium expand to a point almost on par with the sucesses of the Great Crusade. Chaos Renegades and Xenos are purged from the galaxy in phenomenal numbers, and countless rebel systems are brought to hee.l"

 

Now this is because of the great changes wrought by Guilliman and the other Primarchs at the "Age of Rebirth". Then we have deviation to these changes in the form of mis-management at the top. So the lack of greatness as people have put it or a lingering death as others have, has not been as a result of Guilliman's changes, which were to re-organise the military structure of the Imperium so a single person couldn't hold the power of a Legion etc. He did not take over the Imperium when he did this, he was one of the High Lords of Terra sure but not despot.

 

No, the decline of the Imperium is it's management since Guilliman died. To simplify it, Guilliman wrote a guide to looking after the Imperium for after his passing, but it's not his fault that people didn't bother to read it and did their own thing, resulting in everything going wrong...

[Grand Master Tyrak]

So the lack of greatness as people have put it or a lingering death as others have, has not been as a result of Guilliman's changes, which were to re-organise the military structure of the Imperium so a single person couldn't hold the power of a Legion etc.

 

That's not quite what I meant. You are right, no single person can hold that power, and that has two implications. One, the Imperium should never be able to tear itself apart. Two, there will never be a united Imperium - no-one can take command and lead humanity forward. Guilliman did not create these, he facilitated them - intentionally or not, we don't know.

 

Obviously, these are not absolutes. The Age of Apostasy and the Assassin Wars are exceptions to the first, and Solar Macharius and Sebastian Thor are exceptions to the second.

[Marshal Rohr]

We have battled the 'Dorn vs. Guilliman' argument for here to eternity, you can look it up if you like. For the most part, we agreed that Guilliman was responsible for the Imperium and its stabilization and reclamation following the scourging, and that the disagrrements between Roboute and Rogal were like a brothers spat, that ended with them making up. They arn't strangers but Brothers, one of only 20 beings who can relate to one another. There was no Guilliman Heresy because he realized what had to be done to save the Imperium, so he grabbed them by the balls and forced submission, in so doing he saved the Imperium from ruin. Dorn was too shaken after the Siege to be of much use for anything other than revenge, and whenever Guilliman saved him from the Cage he realized what Roboute was doing and joined with him whole-heartedly. Guilliman did what Guy did, but he didn't do it for personal gain but out of duty, so it would be more like Balian seizing power from Guy.

 

The true beauty of the Dorn/Guilliman relationship isn't their disagreements, but their reconciliation.

[The Emperor's Champion]

We have battled the 'Dorn vs. Guilliman' argument for here to eternity, you can look it up if you like. For the most part, we agreed that Guilliman was responsible for the Imperium and its stabilization and reclamation following the scourging, and that the disagrrements between Roboute and Rogal were like a brothers spat, that ended with them making up. They arn't strangers but Brothers, one of only 20 beings who can relate to one another. There was no Guilliman Heresy because he realized what had to be done to save the Imperium, so he grabbed them by the balls and forced submission, in so doing he saved the Imperium from ruin. Dorn was too shaken after the Siege to be of much use for anything other than revenge, and whenever Guilliman saved him from the Cage he realized what Roboute was doing and joined with him whole-heartedly. Guilliman did what Guy did, but he didn't do it for personal gain but out of duty, so it would be more like Balian seizing power from Guy.

 

The true beauty of the Dorn/Guilliman relationship isn't their disagreements, but their reconciliation.

I'm TEC, and I approve this message.

:lol:

[Brother Emelias]

Co-sign and approved.

[Combat_Vet]

I understand that this topic may upset some UM players. For that I apologize. However, to offer your side and opinion and then assume it’s right and the topic closed is kind of rude.

 

Guilliman can be looked at as Caesar Augustus. He grasped the reins of a torn empire and built it back again. Like Augustus, Guilliman would have had to coerce many to achieve his goals. Guilliman was willing to attack his remaining brothers in order to enforce his will, up until this time in the story only one other group was known to show this capability. Augustus rebuilt the senate, restructured the roman military and began a reign of conquest that would expand the known borders of Roman rule. All of these are things that Guilliman did in 40K (interesting isn’t it). And he did all these things through force and the threat of force.

 

No one can argue that it was right for Augustus to do what he did, and the same can be said for Guilliman in 40K. He did what was needed at the time and he did it by whatever means were required.

 

Didn’t Horus lead the rebellion out of a sense of duty? He saw the Emperor being worshipped as a god and led a war against such a thing. It is strange to say that Guilliman had to do what he did.

 

I will admit that the gene-seed of many chapters has degraded over time. But, to say that the UM were the most pure all the way back to the 3rd founding? It was with this initial founding that we see Guilliman’s influence expanding. Every founding after would only serve to create a stronger numerical advantage to the UM.

 

I rather like the story of Dorn. A brilliant tactician, strong leader, and chosen representative of the Emperor. He was so consumed by rage following the heresy that he lost command. Knowing that he would have to submit or face civil war, he made a choice. He would split his forces and protect them at the same time. His fleet was given to the BT and they scatter to find revenge (and not remain in a static position). The Crimson Fists also remain mobile at this point. Dorn returns to Terra with his remaining men and decides to remain at the side of the Emperor (thus protecting him from any “accidents”). He also begins a program of influence building, offering support to all the branches of the empire. He has contacts all the way up to the High Council allowing him to gather information. Ensuring that he is seen embracing the Codex while actually just ensuring the survival of the Imperium under the guidance of the Emperor.

[Captain Idaho]

Didn’t Horus lead the rebellion out of a sense of duty? He saw the Emperor being worshipped as a god and led a war against such a thing. It is strange to say that Guilliman had to do what he did.

 

Not really, his resolve was weakened by that which allowed his corruption and worship of the Chaos Gods. He lead his war against his kin because he was a follower of Chaos, the sense of duty was the way he was corrupted to lead that war.

 

I understand that this topic may upset some UM players. For that I apologize. However, to offer your side and opinion and then assume it’s right and the topic closed is kind of rude.

 

It's not being rude, its being clinical with the facts! ;)

 

What myself and others are pointing out are the facts; the Imperium was created in its current form by various factions working together, bound and guided along certain aspects of it by Guilliman (namely the military part of it as the organisations that give rise to High Lords of Terra were as influential as any Primarch - for example, the Imperium would crumble without Navigators guided Imperial ships so the Navigators Noblis has much power within the governence of the Imperium).

 

Knowing this, we can see the Imperium prospers and even experiences a resurgence. Look to page 124 of the Rule book and read the part underneath the Forging for details (The Golden Age of the Imperium). This was the Imperium as set out by Guilliman and co that directly contradicts the notion that it can do nothing but stagnate and endure. This period of time, of several thousand years, proves that Guilliman did not doom the Imperium to stagnation or worse, because his methods were shown to be sound enough to create a Golden Age.

 

It isn't until the time of Nova Terra Interregnum, which was a schism caused not by the foundations laid down by Guilliman but a rival coalition of "High Lords", the Ur-council of Nova Terra, that the Imperium begins to slide into the present we have for it now.

 

Directly after this schism we have the Age of Apostasy, a period that sees the religous arms of the Imperium abuse their position and further weaken the Imperium.

 

Then we have the Age of Remption, which I talked about in my previous post, but suffice to say it weakened the military of the Imperium rather foolishly. Guess what, this wasn't caused by Guilliman's dictates either, but religous fever and poor management of the Imperium's resources (seems to be a theme eh...)

 

These are all facts, taken from GW fluff sources direct.

[Combat_Vet]

OK, thanks for all the tons of information and opinions. I started this post to work out some fluff issues for my new chapter and I could not have hoped for better results.

 

If I did offend anyone I didn't mean to, so no hard feelings.

 

Better days,

[Captain Idaho]

A good light hearted debate is healthy. I sure wasn't offended by what you posted.

 

In fact, I quite enjoy historical comparisons with characters from 40K, although I do take them with a pinch of salt (as they aren't the same people...)

[Combat_Vet]

Finding the historical reference, and seeing the changes made is why I'm still involved with this hobby. The fluff is so well done with enough twists and turns to make almost anything possible.

 

I always enjoy a healthy debate. Usually with a pint and good friends, but I enjoy myself here too.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Directly after this schism we have the Age of Apostasy, a period that sees the religous arms of the Imperium abuse their position and further weaken the Imperium.

 

Then we have the Age of Remption, which I talked about in my previous post, but suffice to say it weakened the military of the Imperium rather foolishly. Guess what, this wasn't caused by Guilliman's dictates either, but religous fever and poor management of the Imperium's resources (seems to be a theme eh...)

 

Actually, Goge Vandire was the head of the Administratum. He usurped the position of Ecclesiarch as a response to the Ecclesiarchy flexing its power (the Imperium at this point is much more a theocracy following the rise of the Temple of the Saviour Emperor around M32). Following the Age of Apostasy, the Ecclesiarchy's power was curbed - the Imperium moves into an autocracy, the Decree Passive is passed etc.

 

It was not caused by Guilliman's reforms in any way, but the Thorian reforms were certainly in the same style and spirit. Much of what has been said about Thor's reforms can be applied to Guilliman's reforms, and vice-versa.

[Captain Idaho]

Indeed, the Imperium seems to be vulnerable to change from individuals in the right place at the right time (Emperor willing of course!). I find that deliciously ironic; that entire Hive Fleets, Ork Waaaghs and Black Crusades will do nothing to change the Imperium (except killing it's inhabitants and planets!) but a single man with the appropriate vision and motivation can turn it up side it's head.

 

Great stuff.

[Brother Emelias]

This has been one of the most enjoyable articles I've seen here on BatC. I'm glad it's still going!

[_Caesar_]

I will admit that the gene-seed of many chapters has degraded over time. But, to say that the UM were the most pure all the way back to the 3rd founding? It was with this initial founding that we see Guilliman’s influence expanding. Every founding after would only serve to create a stronger numerical advantage to the UM.

 

Indeed, by the 3rd Founding the UM gene-seed had already proved to be one of the purest and most desirable. Obviously, it was also the most numerous following the HH as well, not to mention that the 3rd Founding happened long after the 2nd Founding leaving plenty of time for nascent mutation to become full-blown. So, by the 3rd Founding the various gene-seed mutations and other issues would have caused the High Lords to prefer UM gene-seed over others. Here's a quick rundown of the Legions by the time of the 3rd Founding:

 

 

Dark Angels: Gene-seed is pure and stable but the DA and their successors aren't exactly the most reliable of Chapters due to their focus on keeping their secrets and hunting down the Fallen.

 

White Scars: Heavy losses at the Siege of Terra. Upon the inclusion of the steppe tribesman of Chogoris (an event of the Great Crusade) the gene-seed experienced a mutation that causes savagery.

 

Space Wolves: Even during the Great Crusade they were already growing fangs and being awesomely ferocious due to the Canis Helix. :ph34r: Russ also never struck me as one to listen to authority and only ever obeyed the Emperor.

 

Imperial Fists: Heavy losses at the Siege of Terra. Stable gene-seed though they have lost the use of the sus-an membrane or Betchers gland, though when the loss of these organs happened is uncertain.

 

Blood Angels: Heavy looses at the Siege of Terra. Suffer from the Black Rage which began to plague the Chapter due to the psychic feedback of Sanguinius' death at the hands of Horus.

 

Iron Hands: Massacred at Isstvaan V. Appear to have a gene flaw that makes them abhor weakness to the point of replacing flesh with bionics though when this manifested is unknown.

 

Salamanders: Massacred at Isstvaan V. Stable and pure gene-seed but were the smallest 1st Founding Legion and suffered heavy casualties at the Siege of Terra.

 

Raven Guard: Massacred at Isstvaan V. Have a whole lot of genetic issues due to the techniques Corax used to accelerate gene harvesting after the massacre. Have lost use of the Betchers gland and Mucranoid, and have a unique mutation that turns their hair and eyes coal black and their skin pale white.

 

 

As you can see, four of the eight non-UM Legions were definitely suffering from some sort of mutation before the 3rd Founding. Two might have been, and all except, perhaps, the Dark Angels, had suffered heavy casualties during the HH. The last one (DA), who has both pure gene-seed and likely still had significant numbers was still smaller than the UM as fewer 2nd Founding Chapters succeeded them, and didn't possess the same brand of loyalty and dedication that the UM had. All Legions existed in smaller numbers than the UM giving rise to a simple exponential propagation of UM gene-seed following the HH. But the causes of this were natural, not engineered.

[Combat_Vet]

This history of the gene-seed is exactly my point. I see a lot of acceptance of the fluff we each want to be right. If Guilliman was in a position (or placed another in said position) to test the Genes, it would of course the UM stock being used. The fact that "no man would ever hold the power of a legion" rule would have naturally caused the use of an alternate gene-seed. But, who chose the "best" gene-seed and who gave them the authority to do so?

 

We see a clear path from the Emperor's fall to the rise of Guilliman. He did it for the highest of moral values I am sure. But things like:

 

Captain Idaho

Guilliman created the Imperium from the ashes of the Heresy

 

Marshal

There was no Guilliman Heresy because he realized what had to be done to save the Imperium, so he grabbed them by the balls and forced submission,

 

Caesar

by the 3rd Founding the UM gene-seed had already proved to be one of the purest and most desirable

 

I see this as no more than propaganda that has become cannon and legend over time. Did the Emperor really spend so much time creating the perfect genes, only to have them weaken in less than a century? Taken into account the genes were engineered it would still take vast amounts of time for them to mutate (especially considering the fact that far advanced technology was used). The only way around that is to say the Empeor was flawed. He did not create the perfect soldiers at all. From this point it is only a short hop to the real (mind blowing) statement that Guilliman was superior to the Emperor. Hence the sons of Guilliman actually continue to expand on his devious plans of galactic treason :D

 

Mind you I don't really believe this ^_^ I'm just playing devil's advocate at this point.

[Captain Idaho]

Ooh, let's not forget that the Salamanders, through either quirk of geneseed or their high gravital worlds, had a slower reaction time back in the days they had their own rules. (gave them all lower initiative).

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Did the Emperor really spend so much time creating the perfect genes, only to have them weaken in less than a century?

 

I would say it's down to the Primarchs not being around. It's like historical information. If you can get it from a first-hand source, it's much better. It's not if it's a copy of a copy of a copy of an overheard piece of information. The Chapters do not have the original sources, they have no way of referring to the original to see what has gone wrong and how it might be fixed.

 

But, who chose the "best" gene-seed and who gave them the authority to do so?

 

The AdMech, on the Emperor's authority, I assume. They have custody of the gene-stocks. It's not unreasonable that the Magos Biologi (Magi Biologos?) can understand the gene-seed better than most others.

[Marshal Rohr]

Sure, it could be taken as propaganda, but the fact that other than the Codex, Guilliman never did anything else administrative. He returned to Ultramar to keep the Ultima Segmentum firmly in the Imperium grasp, and its presence has stabilized that whole region in space for 10,000 years. He never demanded taxes or servants. He never forced himself as ruler of Terra or the Imperium, but he sat on a Council that decided the policy of the Imperium. While his brothers were rebuilding and off pursuing the enemy, he managed to help the High Lords maintain control and fight against the traitors. This did happen, it may not have been so shiny, but the evidence supports Guilliman stepping up to the plate when no one else could be bothered and doing what had to be done.

 

Someone had to force a unified vision to keep the Imperium from failing, and he could do it, so he did it. His intentions were good, even if his execution seems a little totalitarian. People often forget the social reforms the real Caesar tried to enact or the change that has followed social upheavals, the only difference is Guilliman didn't let it go to his head and handed power back when things were safe.

[The Emperor's Champion]

Yes. The Adeptus Mechanicus is in charge of geneseed sampling, purity testing and new Chapter creation.

 

 

 

Added to the list:

 

Dark Angels: Gene-seed is pure and stable but the DA and their successors aren't exactly the most reliable of Chapters due to their focus on keeping their secrets and hunting down the Fallen.

 

White Scars: Heavy losses at the Siege of Terra. Upon the inclusion of the steppe tribesman of Chogoris (an event of the Great Crusade) the gene-seed experienced a mutation that causes savagery.

 

Space Wolves: Even during the Great Crusade they were already growing fangs and being awesomely ferocious due to the Canis Helix. Anti-authority to anyone outside their own Chapter.

 

Imperial Fists: Heavy losses at the Siege of Terra. Stable gene-seed though they have lost the use of the sus-an membrane or Betchers gland, though when the loss of these organs happened is uncertain. Also causes a fanatic and stubborn streak that sets them up to suffer mass casualties.

 

Blood Angels: Heavy looses at the Siege of Terra. Suffer from the Black Rage which began to plague the Chapter due to the psychic feedback of Sanguinius' death at the hands of Horus. Red Thirst

 

Iron Hands: Massacred at Isstvaan V. Appear to have a gene flaw that makes them abhor weakness to the point of replacing flesh with bionics though when this manifested is unknown.

 

Salamanders: Massacred at Isstvaan V. Stable and pure gene-seed but were the smallest 1st Founding Legion and suffered heavy casualties at the Siege of Terra. A Melanochrome organ malfunction seems to have turned their skin jet black and eye red. Through either quirk of geneseed or their high gravity worlds, have slower reaction times than other Marines.

 

Raven Guard: Massacred at Isstvaan V. Have a whole lot of genetic issues due to the techniques Corax used to accelerate gene harvesting after the massacre. Have lost use of the Betchers gland and Mucranoid, and have a unique mutation that turns their hair and eyes coal black and their skin pale white.

 

Ultramarines: No known flaws.

[The Emperor's Champion]

Sure, it could be taken as propaganda, but the fact that other than the Codex, Guilliman never did anything else administrative. He returned to Ultramar to keep the Ultima Segmentum firmly in the Imperium grasp, and its presence has stabilized that whole region in space for 10,000 years. He never demanded taxes or servants. He never forced himself as ruler of Terra or the Imperium, but he sat on a Council that decided the policy of the Imperium. While his brothers were rebuilding and off pursuing the enemy, he managed to help the High Lords maintain control and fight against the traitors. This did happen, it may not have been so shiny, but the evidence supports Guilliman stepping up to the plate when no one else could be bothered and doing what had to be done.

 

Someone had to force a unified vision to keep the Imperium from failing, and he could do it, so he did it. His intentions were good, even if his execution seems a little totalitarian. People often forget the social reforms the real Caesar tried to enact or the change that has followed social upheavals, the only difference is Guilliman didn't let it go to his head and handed power back when things were safe.

 

 

Guilliman became Lord Commander Militant Of The Imperium Of Mankind.....technically making him more powerful than Horus was for a while there....of course then he voluntarily gave up that position and went back to being a Primarch after he had finished securing and reorganizing the Imperium. I'd say that's a BIT beyond the administrative duties of just making the Codex....

[Marshal Rohr]

It should read Administrative duties (LCMotI) AND making the Codex. I screwed it up whilst typing.

[Tybrus]

Guilliman became Lord Commander Militant Of The Imperium Of Mankind.....technically making him more powerful than Horus was for a while there....of course then he voluntarily gave up that position and went back to being a Primarch after he had finished securing and reorganizing the Imperium. I'd say that's a BIT beyond the administrative duties of just making the Codex....

 

 

Became is a bit light. He used treats and violance (Shotting at his brother Marines) to "Become" Lord Commander Militant.

 

I agree that in his mind he did it for the right reasons (Hell so did Horus at the start)... But I think the facts play out right that he forced his hand with a "Its either my way or the death of the Imperiam" you pick logic.

 

Not much of a choice for those loyal to the Emperor. I think the most logical statments for this have already been covered as to how Dorn acted after this. 200 said it much better then I can.

 

However, to say he just happened to become the Lord Commander Militant is a far bit of a reach...